"Carbine Manipulation Tips" aren't they a hazard?

Jamie Young · June 8, 2002, 12:25 AM

According to the author "not" but The picture on page 6 is something I always thought was something to "not" do. It says "He is pulling his SIG551 back into his shoulder with both hands." The mag well on an AR is longer and in all of the AR pictures in the article, the support hand is never more than 50% on the "mag." So, in reality, your your not really pulling on the mag with an AR.

As a rank amatuer in the tactical training (this is only My 4th SWAT issue

) I never thought "pulling" on a mag with My support hand was a good idea. Don't all mags have a little "give" and "sway"when you pop them in? I'm gonna try this later this weekend but....I know the AR rifles are quite a bit tighter than My FAL or Mini 14, or any AK I've fired. Its not a stable thing to hold on to for "aimed fire?" I can't push and pull any of the hand guards on any of My semi's.

I would think your also potentially risking "bending" or "breaking" a mag under stress. The AR series "are" mentioned as not having this problem (according to Patrick Rogers) but My FAL mags just don't feel like a safe thing to hold onto. I guess I fit into the "Not every technique is going to be compatible with every person." I'm suing if I get a black eye on Sunday.

Don Gwinn · June 8, 2002, 10:10 AM

I think you're taking the right attitude. I was told the same things, but if Pat Rogers says this will work I'm willing to try it. I may not make it part of regular practice, but I'll give it a shot.

One thing to point out, though, is that Rogers was addressing CQB techniques. Obviously fire should still be aimed, but there's a certain trade of speed for accuracy most people are willing to make in that situation. I'm not a CQB expert or even a novice, but moving the rifle and acquiring the next target quickly seems to be more important than 1/2" group precision in those situations.

I was always taught that you should not touch the magazine nor let it touch the ground or tangle in the sling, because this would cause malfunctions. Rogers also says this is not the case.

Any, Mr. Rogers knows a lot more than I do about this so I'm going to try his way and see what happens.

Denny Hansen · June 8, 2002, 11:26 AM

When I received Pat's manuscript I'll admit I was a little skeptical myself, even though his experience and background are beyond reproach.

Based on Pat's credibility, I would have ran the article regardless, but I went to the range to try his tips out for myself. The techniques, for me at least, work very well, including using a 30-rnd. mag as a monopod firing from 200 yards.

As with most things involving training, I suggest giving it a fair shake. If it works, great--you've added another tool to your tactical toolbox. If it does not get the job done, it's still a valuable learning experience because you know what does not work for you.

Denny

Andrew Wyatt · June 8, 2002, 04:16 PM

I somewhat independently started using the "grab the magazine well/magazine technique when i first started centerfire rifle shooting when i was about 8, because i didn't have enough upper body strength to hold the rifle at the handguard (i was using a mini-14 at the time)

When i started shooting an ar-15, I contunued using the same technique, and I liked it pretty well.

I've never had any "nose dive into the feed ramp" malfunctions while using this technique that i can remember, and i'll continue using it.

KSFreeman · June 8, 2002, 05:13 PM

Soda, only one way to find out--take his class. He holds it just down the "I" from me.

Pat, please come this year. Pleazzzzzze. I'll give you Ken's cigars. I'll have Brent buy you dinner and a drinkeypoo or two!

PLEAZZZZZZE.

Correia · June 10, 2002, 08:42 AM

I'm still waiting to receive my copy. ( Mailman probably hasn't finished it yet

) So I haven't read the article.

I have been using the magazine of my FAL for a monopod for quite some time. It works well while prone. No malfunctions.

I also pull back on the top the the magazine while shooting 3 gun. Seems to work just fine.

George Hill · June 10, 2002, 11:10 AM

But Larry, your Inch pattern FAL is much sturdier than an AR, or even a Metric pattern FAL. The fear is that the AR's mags are wimpy. And this is actually a fear based in fact. They are weak. However real USGI mags are I think strong enough for use in either tip. Holding or resting on. Some of the mags out there are way to weak for such use. But then again, you should be using them anyways.

My .02

Correia · June 10, 2002, 11:18 PM

Got my issue today. Excellent article.

And it gave me the warm fuzzies, because here is Pat Rogers, who by all accounts is THE MAN, talking about how to use a rifle up close and fast, and it is pretty much how I shoot a rifle.

(only not as good, or as fast, I'm sure).

I've always found that magazines make good monopods. I've used an AR15, Vepr, and FAL in this manner. None of them ever had any malfunctions other than sticking my fingers into the ejection port. (ouch, hot). I have learned not to put the magazine onto anything really hard, like concrete, or a car hood, because the jolt from recoil bounces the gun in a strange manner that really throws you out of your groove. I also get a kick out of the guys who say "use the 20 round mags, so you can get lower." Dang those guys must be really skinny.

I can't get much lower and still raise my head enough to look through a sight while resting on a magazine.

You know what I like about SWAT. Most gun magazines are 90% guns, gear, and groovy equipment oriented. Seldom will they ever talk about how to actually use the equipment to be a better shooter. It seems like just about ever issue of SWAT has an article about how to actually shoot!

So far my personal favorite is still Ashley's about sighting. But there is always some good educational info about the training end of things.

Spectre · June 27, 2002, 12:34 PM

I like Pat's rifle tips. After reading his articles, I have ammo to use on the guys who tell me I "should" do thus-and-so (even if it doesn't feel right, or is less effective). It's also nice when someone with Pat's credentials says things that agree with my own CQB training here at Lewis.

Jamie Young · June 27, 2002, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Some of the mags out there are way to weak for such use.

As we all know how much you hate the AR/M16, George, I haven't seen the blow back gas system cause an AR to fail. 90% of the AR malfunction I've seen (about 9 out of 20 rifles) were due to mag failures. Double feeds, live bullets being thrown out, fail to feed ect. Yankin on a mag scares me.

SEA SOLDIER · July 18, 2002, 06:40 AM

Before vertical foregrips were something widely available or common, the mag well made a very ergonomic place from which to grasp the weapon with your support hand. Guiding and firing an MP5 holding on to the mag well is far easier than contorting your wrist and arm to get a good hold on that forend, your hand is going to slip back anyway. Maneuvering with a full sized M16A2 or even a carbine with one hand on the handguard is not especially condusive to good maneuverability in close quarters. The best place from which to hold a rifle or carbine is as far back on the handguard as possible, it just fits your body better, you can also pull it in to your shoulder tighter. It's an akward pain to shoot and move with your arms farther apart than they need to be. Pick up a weapon and you'll find it a very intuitive way to hold the piece. Tolerances in an MP5 magazine make it very unlikely that it will unseat and cause a stoppage. The mag well on a Colt type rifle or carbine is ample enough to rest your fingers (I usually like to get a good partial grip in the groove between the D rign and use the mag well as a shelf). It's a good technique to use if a vertical foregrip is not available or practical.

Jamie Young · August 5, 2002, 11:15 PM

Well I put the techniques to the test this weekend. The FAL passed and the Min 14 failed.

Whenever I would put a new mag in the gun, and pull the bolt back (while My left hand was on the mag), the bolt would close on an empty chamber. When my left hand pushes the mag forward, while the right hand charges the handle, the top bullet dunks down. This happened almost everytime.

I didn't have any jams while firing the gun but holding the gun like this during mag changes isn't a good idea. The FAL passed the test though. Even though its not a CQ gun.

This is a tip for ARs IMHO.

It does make you quicker though.

MrMurphy · August 14, 2002, 04:10 PM

I did the hold-onto-the-magwell thing quite a bit while running through the ROTC version of Basic and it never caused a jam (trying to 3-round-burst with blanks always did though) I did this once while qualifying, and numerous times while running around on the assualt courses, and never had any problems with the mag feeding. Does take a bit of getting used to (I too got the NEVER TOUCH THE MAGAZINE lecture) but it worked for me. I did it about 50% of the time, the other 50% handguard-like-usual.

Jamie Young · August 14, 2002, 06:32 PM

Like I said before, on the M16/AR guns (even in the picture in SWAT magazine) the person viewed was partially holding onto the "mag well" and not just a mag. Big difference IMHO

I'll do some more testing on AK variants.

June 8, 2002, 12:25 AM	#1
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	"Carbine Manipulation Tips" aren't they a hazard? According to the author "not" but The picture on page 6 is something I always thought was something to "not" do. It says "He is pulling his SIG551 back into his shoulder with both hands." The mag well on an AR is longer and in all of the AR pictures in the article, the support hand is never more than 50% on the "mag." So, in reality, your your not really pulling on the mag with an AR. As a rank amatuer in the tactical training (this is only My 4th SWAT issue ) I never thought "pulling" on a mag with My support hand was a good idea. Don't all mags have a little "give" and "sway"when you pop them in? I'm gonna try this later this weekend but....I know the AR rifles are quite a bit tighter than My FAL or Mini 14, or any AK I've fired. Its not a stable thing to hold on to for "aimed fire?" I can't push and pull any of the hand guards on any of My semi's. I would think your also potentially risking "bending" or "breaking" a mag under stress. The AR series "are" mentioned as not having this problem (according to Patrick Rogers) but My FAL mags just don't feel like a safe thing to hold onto. I guess I fit into the "Not every technique is going to be compatible with every person." I'm suing if I get a black eye on Sunday. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!! Last edited by Jamie Young; June 8, 2002 at 04:29 PM.

June 8, 2002, 10:10 AM	#2
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	I think you're taking the right attitude. I was told the same things, but if Pat Rogers says this will work I'm willing to try it. I may not make it part of regular practice, but I'll give it a shot. One thing to point out, though, is that Rogers was addressing CQB techniques. Obviously fire should still be aimed, but there's a certain trade of speed for accuracy most people are willing to make in that situation. I'm not a CQB expert or even a novice, but moving the rifle and acquiring the next target quickly seems to be more important than 1/2" group precision in those situations. I was always taught that you should not touch the magazine nor let it touch the ground or tangle in the sling, because this would cause malfunctions. Rogers also says this is not the case. Any, Mr. Rogers knows a lot more than I do about this so I'm going to try his way and see what happens. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

June 8, 2002, 11:26 AM	#3
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	When I received Pat's manuscript I'll admit I was a little skeptical myself, even though his experience and background are beyond reproach. Based on Pat's credibility, I would have ran the article regardless, but I went to the range to try his tips out for myself. The techniques, for me at least, work very well, including using a 30-rnd. mag as a monopod firing from 200 yards. As with most things involving training, I suggest giving it a fair shake. If it works, great--you've added another tool to your tactical toolbox. If it does not get the job done, it's still a valuable learning experience because you know what does not work for you. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

June 8, 2002, 05:13 PM	#5
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Soda, only one way to find out--take his class. He holds it just down the "I" from me. Pat, please come this year. Pleazzzzzze. I'll give you Ken's cigars. I'll have Brent buy you dinner and a drinkeypoo or two! PLEAZZZZZZE. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

June 10, 2002, 11:10 AM	#7
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	But Larry, your Inch pattern FAL is much sturdier than an AR, or even a Metric pattern FAL. The fear is that the AR's mags are wimpy. And this is actually a fear based in fact. They are weak. However real USGI mags are I think strong enough for use in either tip. Holding or resting on. Some of the mags out there are way to weak for such use. But then again, you should be using them anyways. My .02 __________________ MAD OGRE

June 8, 2002, 04:16 PM	#4
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	I somewhat independently started using the "grab the magazine well/magazine technique when i first started centerfire rifle shooting when i was about 8, because i didn't have enough upper body strength to hold the rifle at the handguard (i was using a mini-14 at the time) When i started shooting an ar-15, I contunued using the same technique, and I liked it pretty well. I've never had any "nose dive into the feed ramp" malfunctions while using this technique that i can remember, and i'll continue using it.

June 10, 2002, 08:42 AM	#6
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I'm still waiting to receive my copy. ( Mailman probably hasn't finished it yet ) So I haven't read the article. I have been using the magazine of my FAL for a monopod for quite some time. It works well while prone. No malfunctions. I also pull back on the top the the magazine while shooting 3 gun. Seems to work just fine.

June 10, 2002, 11:18 PM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Got my issue today. Excellent article. And it gave me the warm fuzzies, because here is Pat Rogers, who by all accounts is THE MAN, talking about how to use a rifle up close and fast, and it is pretty much how I shoot a rifle. (only not as good, or as fast, I'm sure). I've always found that magazines make good monopods. I've used an AR15, Vepr, and FAL in this manner. None of them ever had any malfunctions other than sticking my fingers into the ejection port. (ouch, hot). I have learned not to put the magazine onto anything really hard, like concrete, or a car hood, because the jolt from recoil bounces the gun in a strange manner that really throws you out of your groove. I also get a kick out of the guys who say "use the 20 round mags, so you can get lower." Dang those guys must be really skinny. I can't get much lower and still raise my head enough to look through a sight while resting on a magazine. You know what I like about SWAT. Most gun magazines are 90% guns, gear, and groovy equipment oriented. Seldom will they ever talk about how to actually use the equipment to be a better shooter. It seems like just about ever issue of SWAT has an article about how to actually shoot! So far my personal favorite is still Ashley's about sighting. But there is always some good educational info about the training end of things.

June 27, 2002, 12:34 PM	#9
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I like Pat's rifle tips. After reading his articles, I have ammo to use on the guys who tell me I "should" do thus-and-so (even if it doesn't feel right, or is less effective). It's also nice when someone with Pat's credentials says things that agree with my own CQB training here at Lewis. __________________ John Wandering Thoughts

July 18, 2002, 06:40 AM	#11
SEA SOLDIER Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: Currently Posted Overseas Posts: 30	Before vertical foregrips were something widely available or common, the mag well made a very ergonomic place from which to grasp the weapon with your support hand. Guiding and firing an MP5 holding on to the mag well is far easier than contorting your wrist and arm to get a good hold on that forend, your hand is going to slip back anyway. Maneuvering with a full sized M16A2 or even a carbine with one hand on the handguard is not especially condusive to good maneuverability in close quarters. The best place from which to hold a rifle or carbine is as far back on the handguard as possible, it just fits your body better, you can also pull it in to your shoulder tighter. It's an akward pain to shoot and move with your arms farther apart than they need to be. Pick up a weapon and you'll find it a very intuitive way to hold the piece. Tolerances in an MP5 magazine make it very unlikely that it will unseat and cause a stoppage. The mag well on a Colt type rifle or carbine is ample enough to rest your fingers (I usually like to get a good partial grip in the groove between the D rign and use the mag well as a shelf). It's a good technique to use if a vertical foregrip is not available or practical.

August 5, 2002, 11:15 PM	#12
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Well I put the techniques to the test this weekend. The FAL passed and the Min 14 failed. Whenever I would put a new mag in the gun, and pull the bolt back (while My left hand was on the mag), the bolt would close on an empty chamber. When my left hand pushes the mag forward, while the right hand charges the handle, the top bullet dunks down. This happened almost everytime. I didn't have any jams while firing the gun but holding the gun like this during mag changes isn't a good idea. The FAL passed the test though. Even though its not a CQ gun. This is a tip for ARs IMHO. It does make you quicker though. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

August 14, 2002, 04:10 PM	#13
MrMurphy Member Join Date: August 13, 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 92	I did the hold-onto-the-magwell thing quite a bit while running through the ROTC version of Basic and it never caused a jam (trying to 3-round-burst with blanks always did though) I did this once while qualifying, and numerous times while running around on the assualt courses, and never had any problems with the mag feeding. Does take a bit of getting used to (I too got the NEVER TOUCH THE MAGAZINE lecture) but it worked for me. I did it about 50% of the time, the other 50% handguard-like-usual. __________________ Every Man Dies. Not Every Man Truly Lives.

August 14, 2002, 06:32 PM	#14
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Like I said before, on the M16/AR guns (even in the picture in SWAT magazine) the person viewed was partially holding onto the "mag well" and not just a mag. Big difference IMHO I'll do some more testing on AK variants. __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!