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View Poll Results: is it poaching? | |||
this is a case of poaching, pure and simple. | 68 | 91.89% | |
this is a case of doing what's right. | 6 | 8.11% | |
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll |
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July 16, 2012, 07:30 PM | #51 | ||
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same with pheasants and prairie chickens. Quote:
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ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
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July 16, 2012, 10:21 PM | #52 | |
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If I recall correctly the first turkey was introduced to Great Britain in the early 1500's and then it spread to the rest of Europe from there. I may be off on when the turkey first went to Europe but the fact remains that turkeys are native to the Americas and not Europe.
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July 16, 2012, 10:37 PM | #53 |
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Hansam is right. Turkeys were not known in the Old World until travelers brought them back from the New World.
I personally have examined numerous turkey burials from SW puebloan sites dating back over 1000 years, along with dog, merlin, hawk burials. Turkeys occurred over much of North America, Central, and South America. Of course, the turkey burials were apparently domesticated turkeys, which is rather neat when you think about it, but they were not your Pilgrim's Pride type of white turkeys. Turkey was a common food of prehistoric Native Americans and their remains can be found in refuse middens of sites with long occupations and even short term sites. Probably the oldest turkey remains I have examined would be about 6000 years, but they are not the oldest turkey remains found in association with human sites, not even close, just the oldest I have examined. Remember from your history that Ben Franklin argued for the turkey to be the national bird of the new fledgling country (pun intended). He felt it symbolized America nicely, being of true American origin.
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July 17, 2012, 10:34 AM | #54 |
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Can't blame old Ben. Turkeys taste better than bald eagles.
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July 17, 2012, 12:48 PM | #55 | ||
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No...he wasn't. He was talking about a situation in Washington state and the migration of Canadian wolves there. You can tell by the title of his thread....Should WA State Control Their New Wolf Population |
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July 17, 2012, 03:45 PM | #56 | ||
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I stated that there is a legal way to increase the game limits. Part of my reasoning was that there is no opposition to increasing the game limit. In reply you stated that there were powerful interests involved in hunting. You pointed to archery and muzzle loading as examples. What you didn't do is point to any example of a lobby powerful or not that would oppose an increase in game limits in the example you gave in the OP. PETA doesn't count |
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July 17, 2012, 03:52 PM | #57 | |
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"Blind obedience" is certainly dangerous, but in any organized society, no matter what the form of government, there is a social compact in place. The philosophical nature of that compact is that the populace agrees to give up some of their individual rights to the government, and the government, in turn, agrees to govern in the interest of the people. The level of rights given up individually dictates the amount of power the government holds, and if the balance is not right, then there is either a government that is too weak to maintain control, or a government with too much power that ends up bullying the populace. Assuming that the balance is right (whether it is or not is probably not a topic for this thread), it is incumbent on each member of the society to follow the laws the government makes, since the right to make and enforce laws is the primary right that has been given up by the individual. It is then incumbent upon the government to make sure that the laws are, in fact, in the best interest of the people they are governing. This is where it gets fuzzy. The government, being formed of human beings, is not perfect. Never has been, never will be. When the people perceive that the government is wrong, they have the right and the responsibility to make it known and try to get things changed. That can take the form of petitioning, protesting, voting out leaders in favor of new blood, or any number of other methods, but the nature of the actions taken should fall within the established rules for accomplishing change. A distinction needs to be made at this point. If I feel that my government is wrong, and the rules they have established are unreasonable, I still have the responsibility to follow them while I am trying to get them changed. Only if it is clear that the government is acting illegally or in some way violating the compact that has been established do I have the right to disobey. A couple of examples of a government acting illegally or violating the social compact: - Violations of Civil Rights - Unconstitutional actions A couple of examples of a government acting unreasonably, but not illegally: - Enacting tax laws that don't make sense - Enacting game laws that don't make sense - Enacting any law that doesn't make sense Here is the question that must be asked: Was this law put in place legally? If the law does not violate any other existing statutes, and it does not violate the rights of the people who are subject to the law, then it is not illegal and should be followed. Notice that there is no allowance for "that law is stupid, so I'm not gonna' follow it." It is not the right of the individual to randomly decide which laws to follow and which to break, assuming that the laws are legal. It IS the right of the individual to be the catalyst of change by gathering support and demonstrating to the government that the people are not happy with the current state of affairs. Here is the toughest part for a lot of people to swallow: Even when the majority of the population feels that the rule in question is not reasonable and should be changed, the government is under no obligation to change it. Representative government does NOT mean that the government officials are required to follow popular opinion. They ARE expected to use their best judgement and make decisions that are in the best interest of the people. The popularity of a law, however, is not often a good indicator of whether it is a good law or not. One example of this is taxes. Taxes are incredibly unpopular, but they are necessary, and the government is under no obligation to change or eliminate a tax based on popular opinion (please don't let this statement be the impitus for a partisan debate. I hate to see a good thread put down because it got infected with those darn poli-tics). The only way to legitimately get a law changed based on popularity is to exercise your right to vote. Get the people you disagree with out of office, and replace them with people you like. If you can't get rid of them that way, then maybe their policies are not as unpopular as you thought they were. OK. I am officially dismounting the soapbox now.
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July 17, 2012, 06:06 PM | #58 | |||
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the discussion revolved around what actions should be taken to control the wolf population based on what has happened elsewhere in the country. Quote:
it is a lot easier to fill a tag if you are allowed to take either sex. since you are not able to, these animals are not being harvested and many hunters are not filling their tags because few of the animals in the region meet the minimum requirements for legal harvest. easing the requirements would allow these animals to be harvested rather than just issuing extra tags. I think big mikey summed it up very well. he observes both sides of the discussion and points out where both are right and where both are wrong and makes very good arguments for both. my main issue is one that he pointed out very well, Quote:
now that I've added that quick side note, I think you summed this discussion up very well.
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ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
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July 17, 2012, 09:09 PM | #59 |
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I guess we can argue this till we're all 6 feet under but the informal poll from this thread should tell the OP and Art that majority rules in our country. So "jury nullification" isn't in your favor Art.
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July 17, 2012, 10:04 PM | #60 |
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twins, it's moot. It's now legally possible in Texas to do just what I did. I was just a good many years ahead of the "professionals" on habitat restoration. Hey, it's all a learning curve, and they're young folks, busy reinventing the wheel.
Read the fable about the shape of the cell in a beehive. Aesop, IIRC. |
July 18, 2012, 09:47 AM | #61 |
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Here in the northeast
the situation is in no way hypothetical.
Local Firearm restrictions prevent the discharge of weapons, including bows within most village limits. It takes an awful lot of non-hunters to get tired of the deer decimating their landscaping and colliding with their vehicles to get local laws changed or temporarily relaxed. Some towns hire professional sharpshooters many do let local hunters in with restrictions after a special training class. My town hasn't gotten to that point but what has happened is limited poaching has occurred to keep the numbers in check. (Much of it by local LEOs.) Also areas that were once open to hunting but are now closed are still hunted by the locals. Is it illegal - yes, unethical - probably not, but if everybody did it... |
July 18, 2012, 10:05 AM | #62 |
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Ah, but what is funny about that is that while many place may not allow for the discharge of firearms, they do allow for air rifles and there are some very nifty high powered air rifles, but few folks realize this and few folks would consider the option.
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July 18, 2012, 10:21 AM | #63 |
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The Texas deer herd was severely depleted by the 1930s and thus "Don't shoot does!" became the watchword. That emotion held even after the population explosion from both game laws and the eradication of the screw worm fly. Thus the rules on legal take, precluding does but for one doe per fifty acres. That created a Big Oops insofar as deer becoming pests in some areas.
I read where Alabama's limit was something like a buck a day. Dunno about does, but it indicates a very large population. OTOH, western Texas habitat in some areas will support one deer per fifty acres. I still believe that the worst enemies of rational dealings with wildlife are Felix Salter and Walt Disney. |
July 18, 2012, 10:55 AM | #64 |
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Here in the county I live and since I have been hunting it has gone from no deer season at all to bucks only, to bucks and doe.....
Now you can kill 6 deer all the same day if you want to. Only two can be bucks, but they can all be doe. If that doesn't satisfy you two doe tags can be bought extra as many times as you want. So, other than the two buck limit there is no limit. It is a moving target over time. |
July 19, 2012, 10:08 AM | #65 | |
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July 19, 2012, 11:14 AM | #66 |
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It always amazes me that while the great majority of people (I do not know of anyone who has not), will admit to breaking some law on purpose (speeding, parking meter, etc., etc.), they loudly denounce the people who break some other law. I can imagine some child molester voicing an opinion that poaching is "unethical".
Humans do seem to wear selective blinders. "Judge not least ye be judged". "Your righteousness are as filthy rags." |
July 19, 2012, 11:23 AM | #67 |
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@ dahermit
rationaLIES are still LIES
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July 19, 2012, 06:02 PM | #68 |
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When considering ethics in hunting, we have to think about several things.
We have to do right by the law, we have to do right by our fellow hunters and we must do right by our prey. Problems arise when one of these areas conflict with another. If I had to prioritize, I'd put doing right by our prey first, doing right by fellow hunters second and doing right by the law third. I don't want to minimize the importance of doing right by the law and I'm not commenting on the Op but there are times the most ethical choice requires violating the law. |
July 19, 2012, 08:57 PM | #69 |
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Stable ecosystem? I doubt anybody here would condone poaching. There's certainly no justification in the lower 48 insofar as a need for meat; too much public assistance available. (When I was in the Army, the ration was four ounces of meat per GI per meal.)
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July 19, 2012, 09:49 PM | #70 |
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I've heard stories about the lewis clark expedition. some of the men were eating as much as 5 pounds of meat a day....that is a lot of meat...but probably not much else.
and I agree, there is, unemployment, social security, food stamps and welfare and if that runs out there is a food bank in almost every town in america. my town has less than 1100 people in it and it has one. poaching for food is almost an obsolete crime nowadays, it might not be an obsolete excuse however.
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ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
July 20, 2012, 09:51 PM | #71 |
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Well I'm not so quick to lock someone in jail for killing out of season or too many as long as they are not selling the meat. And as far as law goes, we have a speed limit too and how many on here go alittle past that? Laws are laws right? Let's say if our Government passed a law for Everyone to turn in all your weapons and that was Law. How many of us would grab everything we had and stand in line to turn everything in? I think Not! Law or not. Taking a deer or animal is way low on my list. Just saying
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July 21, 2012, 08:57 AM | #72 | |
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July 21, 2012, 09:48 AM | #73 |
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To the OP: that's precisely what happens over and over again through time. State regulations in the USA seldom address the independent herd issues; rather they choose to regulate the entire population. Micro zoning is the only way to overcome this, and is unused by most wildlife agencies as to date. Just do the right thing. -7-
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July 22, 2012, 07:08 PM | #74 |
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OK, so we also have millions of acres of timbered country with high fuel loads due to a century of fire suppression by the government's land managers. Think you should be able to torch off a few hundred ground fires to improve the health of the forest?
Get involved in the improvement of your public game resources and land management practices through the system, not in spite of it. |
July 23, 2012, 07:52 AM | #75 | |
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Brad |
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