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April 14, 2024, 07:42 PM | #1 |
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Strongest 30-30 Lever Action
Tossing around the idea of a 30-30 AI for my next rifle. Not going to be pushing the limits of blowing it up, but I do like to load a little on the warm side. I have no brand loyalty.
What make and model of 30-30 lever gun has the strongest action/receiver? |
April 14, 2024, 09:01 PM | #2 |
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If I remember correctly, the '94 Winchester had to thicken its receiver to accommodate the .375 Winchester's higher pressures. The Marlin 336 was able to accept higher intensity cartridges without modifications. Based on that I would guess that the Marlin 336 or it's clones would be stronger. I assume the clones include the Henry or the Rossi R95. (Clones in the sense of the bolt locking design.)
Your project is intriguing, and it started me thinking. If I were doing this, I would get a steel framed Henry single shot rifle. The Henry single shot is amply strong, costs less, and allows for spitzer bullets. The single shot would be easier to ream out for the .30-30 Ackley Improved, and easier to ship to a gunsmith. Just send the barrel off by regular mail or UPS. I would not be surprised to find that such a .30-30 AI, single shot, configuration would be as powerful and as typically accurate as a .308 Win. Last edited by hammie; April 14, 2024 at 09:09 PM. |
April 15, 2024, 12:13 AM | #3 |
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yeah i was thinking bolt also; but if you want the look and feel of the lever probably the 336, they are solid shooters; but i'm not sure i would take one of them to AI and still load hot. how much more powder will the 30-30AI hold ?
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April 15, 2024, 01:54 AM | #4 | |
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Then there's the Savage 99 and the Winchester 88 and if you get really lucky finding them the Sako Finnwolf and Finnbear. And again, already in factory calibers better than the .30-30AI. and the strongest "lever" actions are the Ruger falling blocks, No.1 and No.3 My guess for the strongest lever action factory chambered in .30-30 Win would be the Savage 99. But Savage dropped that chambering with WWII. So finding one of those collector pieces and turning it into a .30-30 AI would be a most dangerous thing to do. bad for your health...Savage collectors would tear you into tiny little pieces, and then stomp on them, and then...they would get nasty.... Seriously, if you're just looking for a project I'd look for a 336 or Win 94 as cheap as you can find one, still sound, and have it rechambered and start loading, keeping a close eye on it for stretching. I don't think the AI version is enough to do it, but I have no idea what you're going to put into your loads, so...good Luck!
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April 15, 2024, 05:26 AM | #5 |
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336 being forged and just open on the bottom would be better than a 94 that’s open top and bottom and depending on the vintage cast or forged.
Winchester had to beef up the sides of the receiver on their Big Bore models to handle higher pressure cartridges, 307, 356, 375 and 444. If you find one of these, you may as well get a 307 and call it done. Mossberg sold a lever action back around the 60’s and 70’s that closely copied the 336. Major outward difference was that the trigger moved with the lever. The receiver was also a little bulkier. Last edited by Pumpkin; April 15, 2024 at 05:40 AM. |
April 15, 2024, 09:03 AM | #6 |
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If I were to do a .30-30 AI, I'd want to use spitzer bullets to really take advantage of the increased case capacity. In a lever that leaves you the least amount of bullet options for spitzers with the Hornady FTX bullets.
For bolt actions they're few and far between. Rem 788 and Win 54 rifles are the best bolt actions in .30-30 but I wouldn't AI either, as they're expensive to purchase and highly collectable. The Rem 788 has a notoriously weak extractor, and parts are tough to find when you break them. The Savage/Stevens/Springfield models will be your easiest to find, but they have issues with only having a single action screw. Then you might have feeding issues with either a lever or bolt action rifle that might need worked out. With the body taper removed and sharper shoulder it might hang up trying to chamber a round. There are a few things that I'd try to hash out before even starting a project like this. I've often thought of building either a .30-30 or .30-40 AI. However, it's simply buying an expensive barrel for my Encore frame. A single shot rifle is the easiest route to a well functioning rimmed AI cartridge. I have a friend that had a .30-30 AI Contender pistol, and he used it to shoot a pronghorn on my family's property and kill some praire dogs. He was getting around 25-2600 fps from a 14" barrel, if I remember correctly.
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April 15, 2024, 09:21 AM | #7 |
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Marlin, definitely.
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April 15, 2024, 01:26 PM | #8 | |
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Which is stronger is still debatable, but from everything I've read I tend to think the Winchester is.
Another discussion from here in 2008 with some pretty compelling evidence the Winchester is the stronger action. Considering who posted this I tend to believe him. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=308117 Quote:
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April 15, 2024, 02:54 PM | #9 |
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The OP was asking about a lever action originally chambered in 30-30.
This excludes the Big Bore version. Is an action that stretches outwards considered stronger than one that doesn’t. This surely will affect the engagement of the sliding, angled locking bolt. Rechamber a 30-30 94 (not a Big Bore) to the more powerful 308 Marlin Express, I bet the results would be less than satisfactory. |
April 15, 2024, 04:34 PM | #10 | |
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In the second paragraph he discusses the need to beef up the action for the .375 Win and .444 Marlin. For refrence the .308 Marlin Express operates at 57.5K psi average pressure. .308 MX pushes a 140 grain projectiles at 2800 fps, the .307 Win pushes 150 grains at 2700. SAAMI doesn't list cup pressure for the Marlin and doesn't list PSI for the Winchester cartridge. I can only hypothesize the .307 Win would push the 140 to nearly the same speed as the .308 MX does.
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April 15, 2024, 06:30 PM | #11 |
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Maybe I am a Fudd but what is the point of hotrodding the 30-30? What is the goal?
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April 15, 2024, 06:34 PM | #12 |
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If you're saying there ain't much of a point.........I agree.
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April 15, 2024, 07:18 PM | #13 |
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Not very practical anymore considering what the value is of a decent 94 or 336.
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April 15, 2024, 08:29 PM | #14 |
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saddle carbine
One of those Savage 99's in saddle carbine configuration in 30-30 has been on my bucket list for years! I would join in the torture of anyone dorking with one
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April 15, 2024, 09:14 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
Pretty much have it narrowed down to the 336 and 94. Really like 94s, but I'm afraid the 336 is a better fit... |
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April 15, 2024, 09:15 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
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April 15, 2024, 10:07 PM | #17 | |
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My friend used a lot of cartridges like the .30-30 AI in pistols because he lived in upstate NY and he had to use either a pistol or shotgun to deer hunt. Also because of gun legislation it was easier to buy a new barrel for an Encore or Contender than another complete firearm. He really enjoyed it when he was no longer limited to pistols and shotguns. Watching him take a pronhorn at 350 yards with the .30-30 AI pistol was pretty impressive.
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April 15, 2024, 10:42 PM | #18 |
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Well one can take the 30-30 and give it the AI treatment but why? two books I can recommend, one is, "Winchester's 30-30, Model 94 by Sam Fadala. The other is, "Pet Loads" by Ken Waters.
Winchester's 30-30 is based on Mr. Fadala's work with the cartridge and the custom M94 he built. He did chamber it to the AI but only loads it to standard 30-30 pressures. He did it that way for longer case life. He has some interesting handload data as well including using 190 gr. bullets from Winchester .404 Savage brass and selling the unfired brass to recoup some of the cost. All in all a very interesting read. Pet Loads on the other hand is a compilation of handloading work by Mr. Waters covering just about every cartridge popular in the US but many from over the world. He has a section on the 30-30 where he did side experiments using the very strong Bolt action M54 Winchester. His fnds were that the 3030 brass wasn't strong enough for really hot rodded loads. I have an M54 and I agree with Mr. Waters. IIRC, he opined that there might not be all that much gain going to the AI version but did say other disagree. I was going to leave out P.O. Ackley but in all fairness he did some experiments with the 30-30 AI which he found favor with. That set of books is is, "handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol1 & Vl 2". Personally, I like the 30-30 as is and shoot the several I have as "fun guns" at the range or desert. I run mostly home cast cast 175 gr. bullets usually at 1950 FPS which is supposed to be the original speed with a 165 gr. bullet. FWIW, I liked the idea of Mr. Fadala's load using the 190 gr. .303 Sav. bullet so tinkering with my alloy got a 180 gr; cast bullet to fome out at 190 gr. I run it at the original .303 speed of 1950 FPS. Before I forget, both of those cast bullet loads take deer very nicely. Paul B.
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April 15, 2024, 10:45 PM | #19 |
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Without a doubt, the Savage 99. It is strong enough to fire high-intensity cartridges like the .308 WIN.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=101685293 |
April 15, 2024, 11:42 PM | #20 | |
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Also I'm a bit curious where he was. I grew up in NY and left there in 75. "Upstate" was a term commonly used by people in the lower Hudson valley and NYC metro areas, and covered everything in the state north of where they lived. I grew up in the lower Adirondack region and no one there, ever, used the term "upstate". It was a bit of a matter of local pride. New York state is shaped like a "T" tipped on its right side. For hunting the part sticking up is the Northern Zone, and the rest of the state is the Southern Zone. No idea what it is today but back in the 60s-70s Southern Zone had some "peculular" rules. First off, it was shotgun only, no rifles for deer or bear. And, in the later 60s, they ruled out buckshot for deer, SO, in 3/4 of the state deer hunting was shotgun only (20ga or larger) and slugs, only. Oddly enough, you could use buckshot (#4 buck or larger) for black bear, but NOT for deer. State wide the only reg for pistol hunting deer/bear was .24 cal or larger. I don't recall being allowed to pistol hunt in the Southern Zone, might be something they changed after I moved west, might have been something allowed back where I lived there, just not widely known. Handgun hunting big game wasn't something widely done back then. From what I've been able to find out, the .30-30 AI was an easy conversion for the Win 94 and Marlin 336 rifles only needing a rechambering, and allowing as much as a couple hundred fps velocity increase without stressing the action.
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April 16, 2024, 09:20 AM | #21 | |
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My buddy lived about 60 miles soutwest of the Rochester airport that I flew into for deer season in 2008. I changed flights in NYC, and it was a flight attendant that said where I was flying into was upstate, I just figured that was a generic term for any part of the state outside of NYC. I'm guessing that's your sothern zone then since Rochester is northwest of NYC?
Rifle was already allowed by the time I went hunting in 08. He is a little older than me born in 69, born and raised there until he had to move for work in 2010. He said when he grew up it was shotgun only, but when they added pistol to the regs that's when his family got into Contender pistols. He said he had hunted deer and bear throughout the whole state growing up, I never asked a whole lot of questions about the zones or when the firearm rules changed. I did read up on most of the regulations at that time about legal methods of take and the other basics. My friend pretty much took care of getting my license for me after he picked me up at the airport. Quote:
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April 16, 2024, 09:31 AM | #22 |
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I read an article in Shooting Times about loading the 30-30 to max velocities.
The author was using 375 Win brass because of its added a strength in the web area. I actually bought a few boxes, probably much harder to find these days. |
April 16, 2024, 10:10 AM | #23 |
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Rifle issue #103 Jan 1986 has the fastest data for the 150 grain bullet at 2585 fps using Hornady bullet and H335 powder in the .30-30 AI. This was fired from a 24" Winchester 94. I'm assuming this was a FN bullet, however in my 8th edition Hornady manual the only bullet they offer in 150 grains is a RN.
Handloader issue #107 Jan 1984 from a Winchester 94 carbine. The fastest data for the 170 grain I found used a Sierra PH FN at 2437 fps with I4064 powder. P.O. Ackley's 150 grain data was extremly fast from his book: Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders/Vol. 1 - P.O. Ackley, 1962 It was recommended to use extreme caution when using this old data.
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April 16, 2024, 10:53 AM | #24 |
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April 16, 2024, 01:16 PM | #25 |
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I don't know if its helpful or not but a couple of decades ago I found some data for extra hot 30-30 loads and so had to try them. I didn't have a chrono and don't remember what the supposed extra speeds were supposed to be but the rounds were HOT. The gun kicked and bucked when fired and cases only made it through two loadings before they were splitting.
So i stopped what I was doing pretty quick and decided no more of those Non Manual loads. What was the point? I had a 308 and 30-06 that would shoot circles powerwise around those loads and do it safely. I just decided to accept my 30-30s for what they were instead of trying to turn them into lever action magnums. John Barness always said that a 4% increase in powder capacity would get you a 1% increase in velocity. So how much more powder space does an AI 30-30 provide? I don't have a 308 bolt action anymore but if I could find a 308 carbine I think I would load the case with 170gr 30-30 bullets pushed to around 2400fps for sort of a Super 30-30. And that would be how I ramped up the power in the 30-30 rifle. I already do loads like that in 30-06 cases and they are very pleasant to shoot. I can't tell you what the strongest lever action is. In your case the weak link is the 30-30 brass which was never designed with higher pressures in mind. Last edited by ThomasT; April 16, 2024 at 01:50 PM. |
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