House fire

Waterwolf · March 3, 2010, 09:00 PM

Hello everyone,
I just received a couple of free shotguns from a house fire. All stocks were melted off (synthetic).

Browning A5 20 gauge
Rem 870 sup mag 12
Rem 1187 20 gauge

I would like to get these back up and running. But of course realize they would never look very attractive, and for the most part these guns are cheap. So no large investment, I can walk away from these. But being free, what are your thoughts.

1. Obiously all springs would need to be replaced
2. What are the thoughts on barrels?
3. What are thoughts on bolt assembly?
4. Receiver doesn't seem to be warped, bolt slides smoothly, barrel is a slip fit.
5. The receiver doesn't contain the combustion for the most part, so any thoughts.

So far the Rem 870 sup mag seems the most doable.

Okay guys let the fun begin, lets hear it.

:barf::barf:

James K · March 3, 2010, 09:54 PM

I don't know what the melting point of the synthetic is, but we always assumed that if the wood was burned off, the gun was junk.

IMHO, if the bluing is gone, the heat treatment is also. Shotguns don't have to handle the pressure levels of rifles, but that doesn't mean that barrels that have lost their temper will be safe.

Jim

mapsjanhere · March 3, 2010, 10:26 PM

If you have to replace the springs because they lost their temper, the rest of the gun is toast too. On the other hand, a thermoplastic stock will melt at 120C, that would not have hurt the metal automatically.

Waterwolf · March 3, 2010, 10:30 PM

My immediate thoughts are to replace the barrel and all springs, firing pin. Watch the bolt for peening marks (softening).

fastforty · March 3, 2010, 11:39 PM

Contact a safe company. They like stuff like that to promote their fire insulated safes. Might get enough out of them to put a deposit on a shooter

mete · March 4, 2010, 06:28 AM

You should be able to go to 400 F without problems .Some plastics will melt before that.Perhaps you could get info from the stock maker.If there is any scale [grey or black build up ] on the gun it's scrap ! Discoloration [temper colors] indicate possible problems depending on the part.

rattletrap1970 · March 4, 2010, 06:48 AM

Guns are scrap. The temperatures in a house fire far exceed the temps needed to anneal or otherwise change the tempering that was intended on any of the parts involved. I wouldn't even use the springs. Maybe the screws.. That would be it.

You can polish those up and put them in a new stock, but there is no way I'd want to be anywhere around them when you try to shoot them.

I agree with the other guy, maybe a safe company will take 'em off your hands for use in an AD or something. I wouldn't refinish them to be wall hangers either. Someday they may go to someone else and they can end up blowing their face off.

jaguarxk120 · March 4, 2010, 08:12 AM

On all three shotguns the lockup is made by the bolt locking into the barrel extention. There fore the reciever is just a holding fixture for the parts that actually do the shooting. By replacing the barrels,bolt, and locking blocks they should be go to go. Be well advised that there are other heatreated parts in the action that may have lost their heat treatment. Also the cost of replacing those parts may well exceed the value of the gun.

Shotguns such as Winchester Model 12's and Ithaca Model 37's lock the breachbolt into the reciever and if heat treatment is lost then the gun should become a wall hanger.

Waterwolf · March 4, 2010, 03:54 PM

Getting the bolts, receiver and barrels hardness checked against non-house warming party units. I will let you guys know what I find out. But yet the bolts lock into the barrels not the receiver like a typical rifle. And also these guns don't have a lot of value, so if it ain't cheap it isn't going to happen.

Scorch · March 4, 2010, 04:15 PM

If it ain't gonna happen, can I raise my hand for them as parts?

saands · March 4, 2010, 05:58 PM

Quote:

The temperatures in a house fire far exceed the temps needed to anneal or otherwise change the tempering that was intended on any of the parts involved.

While this is true, it is also false ... I've been in house fires and the temps vary WILDLY ... from over 1200 degrees F near the ceiling to well below 200 degrees near the floor ... so it all depends on where these were ... under the bed isn't an odd place for shotguns, and that could have stayed plenty cool. Most of the stocks I've seen are thermoplastics, so the fact that they melted really only says that they got to 250 or 350 degrees F for sure ... more is always a possibility, though, so the idea of having them hardness tested is a very good one.

Saands

mete · March 4, 2010, 06:14 PM

Hardness tests are good only if you know what the hardness is supposed to be !!

jaguarxk120 · March 4, 2010, 08:56 PM

Checking hardness is real easy, just use a part from a gun that hasen't been in the barbi. Also the Rockwell for the Remingtons should be the same for both shotguns, bolts,barrels, and locking bolt. Can't say about the Browning but it should be in the same range, maybe a little softer depending where the gun was made.

Mac's! · March 5, 2010, 12:00 AM

Springs will loose their temper much faster than other gun parts due to their weight. (Or lack of) We restore a lot of firearms that have been in house fires and have seen them with the ends of the butt stock burnt off, plastic stocks melted all over the receivers and of course, very rusty. House fires can do some really strange stuff as far as heat goes. Just because the stocks are melted does not mean that the actions are junk. Check the springs. If they're still nice and "springy", I would bet that the metal never got hot enough to change the temper of anything. You can change the temper on a spring with a bic lighter!!

As far as rust is concerned, it's most likely surface rust. If you stop it now and the metal was good to start with, you should be able to get them looking good again. House fires have all of the ingredients for flash rust...heat, steam, acidic fumes, etc. If you plan on making them go again, you need to stop it from getting any worse.

First, rinse off any debris. Then soak and swish them around in a baking soda and water solution. This will neatralize any acids. Then soak them inside and out in a heavy oil.

These rifles were flash rusted from the heat, steam, etc. from a house fire. The stocks were dried out from the heat but there was no actual flame on them. A new finish inside and out and a lot of elbow grease on the wood and they're looking good again. Odd thing though...Notice the receiver on the semi shotgun? It's Aluminum and was never affected.

Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
Mac's shootin' Irons.
http://www.shootiniron.com

apr1775 · March 7, 2010, 08:56 AM

Mac, excellent explanation and examples. I don't know why some people are so quick to declare something as worthless junk. Stocks and springs will need to be replaced; move on from there.

Mac's! · March 7, 2010, 11:53 AM

Hey hey! Don't let the secret get out to the general public! Here in Arizona, it's cash and carry with no paperwork for private sales of firearms. I cruise yard sales and swap meets where I pick up rusty and/or burnt firearms. A quick discreet check of the hammer tension or loading gate spring or mag spring, etc. and if it "springs", I buy them cheap. Sometimes the springs are dead but I might still pick it up for a few parts if it's cheap enough. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
Mac's shootin' Irons.
http://www.shootiniron.com

Waterwolf · March 19, 2010, 06:48 AM

Receivers were hardness checked. Rem 870 receiver that was in good shape had a hardness of 42 rc, house heat treated receiver came in about 20 rc. Barrels were even softer. So they are all shot. Also heat treating would more than likely warp the receiver. So they are all junk. Oh well no investment but a little time.

March 3, 2010, 09:00 PM	#1
Waterwolf Member Join Date: November 4, 2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 43	House fire Hello everyone, I just received a couple of free shotguns from a house fire. All stocks were melted off (synthetic). Browning A5 20 gauge Rem 870 sup mag 12 Rem 1187 20 gauge I would like to get these back up and running. But of course realize they would never look very attractive, and for the most part these guns are cheap. So no large investment, I can walk away from these. But being free, what are your thoughts. 1. Obiously all springs would need to be replaced 2. What are the thoughts on barrels? 3. What are thoughts on bolt assembly? 4. Receiver doesn't seem to be warped, bolt slides smoothly, barrel is a slip fit. 5. The receiver doesn't contain the combustion for the most part, so any thoughts. So far the Rem 870 sup mag seems the most doable. Okay guys let the fun begin, lets hear it.:barf::barf:

March 3, 2010, 10:26 PM	#3
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	If you have to replace the springs because they lost their temper, the rest of the gun is toast too. On the other hand, a thermoplastic stock will melt at 120C, that would not have hurt the metal automatically. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

March 3, 2010, 10:30 PM	#4
Waterwolf Member Join Date: November 4, 2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 43	Am I crazy? My immediate thoughts are to replace the barrel and all springs, firing pin. Watch the bolt for peening marks (softening).

March 3, 2010, 11:39 PM	#5
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	Contact a safe company. They like stuff like that to promote their fire insulated safes. Might get enough out of them to put a deposit on a shooter __________________ When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.

March 4, 2010, 03:54 PM	#9
Waterwolf Member Join Date: November 4, 2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 43	I have made arrangements with a machinist Getting the bolts, receiver and barrels hardness checked against non-house warming party units. I will let you guys know what I find out. But yet the bolts lock into the barrels not the receiver like a typical rifle. And also these guns don't have a lot of value, so if it ain't cheap it isn't going to happen.

March 3, 2010, 09:54 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know what the melting point of the synthetic is, but we always assumed that if the wood was burned off, the gun was junk. IMHO, if the bluing is gone, the heat treatment is also. Shotguns don't have to handle the pressure levels of rifles, but that doesn't mean that barrels that have lost their temper will be safe. Jim

March 4, 2010, 06:28 AM	#6
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	You should be able to go to 400 F without problems .Some plastics will melt before that.Perhaps you could get info from the stock maker.If there is any scale [grey or black build up ] on the gun it's scrap ! Discoloration [temper colors] indicate possible problems depending on the part.

March 4, 2010, 06:48 AM	#7
rattletrap1970 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: Torrington, CT. USA Posts: 299	Guns are scrap. The temperatures in a house fire far exceed the temps needed to anneal or otherwise change the tempering that was intended on any of the parts involved. I wouldn't even use the springs. Maybe the screws.. That would be it. You can polish those up and put them in a new stock, but there is no way I'd want to be anywhere around them when you try to shoot them. I agree with the other guy, maybe a safe company will take 'em off your hands for use in an AD or something. I wouldn't refinish them to be wall hangers either. Someday they may go to someone else and they can end up blowing their face off.

March 4, 2010, 08:12 AM	#8
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	On all three shotguns the lockup is made by the bolt locking into the barrel extention. There fore the reciever is just a holding fixture for the parts that actually do the shooting. By replacing the barrels,bolt, and locking blocks they should be go to go. Be well advised that there are other heatreated parts in the action that may have lost their heat treatment. Also the cost of replacing those parts may well exceed the value of the gun. Shotguns such as Winchester Model 12's and Ithaca Model 37's lock the breachbolt into the reciever and if heat treatment is lost then the gun should become a wall hanger.

March 4, 2010, 04:15 PM	#10
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	If it ain't gonna happen, can I raise my hand for them as parts? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

March 4, 2010, 06:14 PM	#12
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Hardness tests are good only if you know what the hardness is supposed to be !!

March 4, 2010, 08:56 PM	#13
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Checking hardness is real easy, just use a part from a gun that hasen't been in the barbi. Also the Rockwell for the Remingtons should be the same for both shotguns, bolts,barrels, and locking bolt. Can't say about the Browning but it should be in the same range, maybe a little softer depending where the gun was made.

March 5, 2010, 12:00 AM	#14
Mac's! Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2001 Posts: 129	Springs will loose their temper much faster than other gun parts due to their weight. (Or lack of) We restore a lot of firearms that have been in house fires and have seen them with the ends of the butt stock burnt off, plastic stocks melted all over the receivers and of course, very rusty. House fires can do some really strange stuff as far as heat goes. Just because the stocks are melted does not mean that the actions are junk. Check the springs. If they're still nice and "springy", I would bet that the metal never got hot enough to change the temper of anything. You can change the temper on a spring with a bic lighter!! As far as rust is concerned, it's most likely surface rust. If you stop it now and the metal was good to start with, you should be able to get them looking good again. House fires have all of the ingredients for flash rust...heat, steam, acidic fumes, etc. If you plan on making them go again, you need to stop it from getting any worse. First, rinse off any debris. Then soak and swish them around in a baking soda and water solution. This will neatralize any acids. Then soak them inside and out in a heavy oil. These rifles were flash rusted from the heat, steam, etc. from a house fire. The stocks were dried out from the heat but there was no actual flame on them. A new finish inside and out and a lot of elbow grease on the wood and they're looking good again. Odd thing though...Notice the receiver on the semi shotgun? It's Aluminum and was never affected. Keep yer powder dry, Mac. Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All. Mac's shootin' Irons. http://www.shootiniron.com

March 7, 2010, 08:56 AM	#15
apr1775 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 425	Mac, excellent explanation and examples. I don't know why some people are so quick to declare something as worthless junk. Stocks and springs will need to be replaced; move on from there.

March 7, 2010, 11:53 AM	#16
Mac's! Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2001 Posts: 129	Hey hey! Don't let the secret get out to the general public! Here in Arizona, it's cash and carry with no paperwork for private sales of firearms. I cruise yard sales and swap meets where I pick up rusty and/or burnt firearms. A quick discreet check of the hammer tension or loading gate spring or mag spring, etc. and if it "springs", I buy them cheap. Sometimes the springs are dead but I might still pick it up for a few parts if it's cheap enough. Keep yer powder dry, Mac. Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All. Mac's shootin' Irons. http://www.shootiniron.com

March 19, 2010, 06:48 AM	#17
Waterwolf Member Join Date: November 4, 2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 43	Receivers were hardness checked. Rem 870 receiver that was in good shape had a hardness of 42 rc, house heat treated receiver came in about 20 rc. Barrels were even softer. So they are all shot. Also heat treating would more than likely warp the receiver. So they are all junk. Oh well no investment but a little time.