Group size at 100 yds with IRON sights, from your rifle

[lonegunman]

Ok, this is a very specific question, for shooters of iron sighted combat style semi auto rifles only (lets say AR15 style, M1A, Garand, L1A1, etc):

With iron sights ONLY, at 100 yds, rested, what is your group size?

For purposes of this discussion, consider a group to be ALL shots fired, included any flyers (ie, if you shoot 5 shots and 3 are inside 2", and the other 2 are inside 4", lets call that a 4 inch group). Think about extreme spread here.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

lonegunman,

With my bushmaster 20hbar with a Rock River Arms two-stage trigger, and the following fodder my results have been:

Blackhills 52gr (blue box):
groups < 1.25"

Blackhills 68gr (blue box):
groups < 1.25"

Blackhills 75gr (blue box):
groups > 5"

Spanish Santa Barbara ss109:
groups ~ 3" all day


With my "franken-gun" 20hbar, DPMS CMP upper, bushmaster lower, jewell trigger, and the following fodder my results have been:

Blackhills 52gr (blue box):
groups < 1" with the smallest being 0.6"

Blackhills 68gr (blue box):
groups < 1"

Blackhills 75gr (blue box):
groups < 1" with the smallest being 0.45"

Spanish Santa Barbara ss109:
groups ~ 1" all day

With my Springfield Armory M1A "loaded" stainless, and a CA legal Springfield brake, my results have been:

Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr:
groups ~1.75"

Blackhills 168gr:
groups ~1.75"

South African brown-battle-packed 150gr:
1" < groups < 4"

British Radway Green 147gr ball:
2" < groups < 5"

Austrian 147gr ball:
2" < groups < 6"


Well, those have been my results ranging from "nice" to "[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]?!"

All groups were fired from a sand-bagged solid wooden bench, open-sights, and at 100yds for five shots. Yes, I do realize that some won't call a group a group unless it's 10+ shots.

BTW, I think that some rifled slugged shotguns could do better than my m1a :rolleyes:

Jim

[Cliff]

lonegunman - As Duke's post points out, ammo quality can play a big part in how consistently, and tightly, one will be able to group their shots.

Sight radius and front post size also influence things.

In my case, shooting 3 round strings, (my normal for sighting in and the like), things break down as follows:

Springfield Armory "loaded" M1A, I've grouped at 0.75" using Hornady 168gr. AMAX match ammo. Using standard 147gr. milsurp fodder, it's usually 2-3".

M1 Garand using 149gr. milsurp - again, 2-3".

AR15 "shorty" using Federal redbox 55gr. - 4-5". The shorter sight radius and large front post on my AR (not to mention coarse trigger (coarse compared to the sweet two stage triggers on the M1 and M1A) tend to open things up a bit.

Being able to shoot tight groups is gratifying, but being able to hit a dinner plate sized object at that distance with the first shot, is also important. IMO ;)

Cliff

[RomaRana]

I can shoot 9 ring with almost all ammo from prone(shooting sling) at 100 yards with my FAL and Ar.

[Art Eatman]

Somewhere around 1985-ish, I got some Czech-made '06 GI-type ammo from Atlanta Dicount Ammunition.

I tried some three-shot groups from my Garand, and didn't seem to have any problem in getting 2" at 200 yards off the benchrest.

Good ammo. I got 3/4" groups from Ol' Pet.

Art

[brandon_h3]

This is a good thread. Interesting answers.

[knutzke]

FMP G3 rifle:Record 13 mm@100m three shots group.
30 mm five shot groups all day long.I´m using hand
loaded ammo only.

[fastforty]

You guys can *see* 100 yards? Seriously, I must need to get my perscription checked, everything's pretty burry at that distance to expect better'n 6-7" even out of a sub-MOA barrel.

[knutzke]

Naturally good conditions are required,cloudy calm day,
special target and so on.But it´s possible and also great fun..

[Navy joe]

Don't carry calipers, but 5 shots usually touch rested or prone from my M-1A. prefer NRA 50ft pistol bulls for targets.

[BigG]

I see some potential gun writers in this thread - and I'm rolling up my pants before anybody else posts. :p

[swampyMO]

fastforty wrote:

"You guys can *see* 100 yards? Seriously, I must need to get my perscription checked, everything's pretty burry at that distance to expect better'n 6-7" even out of a sub-MOA barrel."s

Hey guy, you don't NEED to be able to see 100 yds. All you have to be able to "SEE" sharply is that front sight post. THAT is where your focus point HAS TO BE in order to shoot well with a post front irons.

You don't WANT to focus on the target. It's supposed to be a blurry black dot.

In fact, ol' fogey highpower shooters like me who need either longer arms or bi-focals in order to read a book pretty much have to get a special prescription in order to shoot the post front well. This is in order to bring our focus point BACK to the front sight post and OFF of the target.

My normal distance prescription is a -7.25 diopter (I'm VERY nearsighted). My "lower lens" bifocal for up close and reading is backed off 2.0 diopters and is at a -5.25 diopter.

The shooting lens I wear to let me focus on the front sight post is +.75 diopter from my normal distance prescription, making it a -6.50. With this lens I can bring my focus back to the post, where it should be, leaving the bull a fuzzy black dot, also just like it should be. When not looking through my sights, the +.75 from norm makes things I try to look at in the distance a little softer than what I'd want for, say driving, but is fine for walking around the range and such. I can still see fine with it.

In talking with other shooters, the range of diopter correction for shooting seems to be between about +.50 and +1.00 diopter. Even the highpower legend G. David Tubb, in his book, says he most often uses a +1.00 diopter shooting correction.

BTW, even as nearsighted as I am, I can get sub MOA 100 yd. 5 & 10 shot groups with my AR, and 1.5 MOA 8 shots from my Garand.

It don't matter WHAT your main prescription is.... as long as the glasses you wear when you shoot allow you to focus on the front sight, you can see well enough to shoot. If you ain't hitting the bull, the problem is not with your eyesight. ;)

Swampy

[Navy joe]

Come on up and see there Big G, 100 yds is pretty short range for a rifle ya know, what's so hard to believe with quality ammo(Federal Gold Match) and NM sights on a really sweet weapon? I suppose its horse hockey that I hold 3" off-hand with my AR over 20 rds off-hand with crap russian ammo too. I mean I'm a lousy shot, but I'm not that bad.

[BigG]

I know there are people who can shoot to their weapon's potential, only not many. No offense, but most shooters (myself included) have good days and bad days and we tend to remember the good days better.

BTW, since when is a NM M1A a combat style semi auto?

:p

[Mal H]

BigG - I learned long long ago never to say someone can't do something they tell me they can do no matter how ridiculous it may sound.

I know someone who can consistently hit golf balls at around 75 yards with his 1911. If he can do that, who is to say that someone can't use a rifle with its inherent accuracy and much longer sight radius to get a very good group at only 25 yards further? Agreed that the iron sights on that rifle must be of good quality not the kind where the front blade washes around in the wide gap of the rear sight.

[Poodleshooter]

I can't shoot much tighter than 6" with iron sights offhand. I usually tend to vertically string a lot, as I always have a hard time telling where the front sight post is in height relation to the 8.5"x11" targets that I commonly use @ 100yds. I know it's me as my AK and AR both shoot about the same in my hands, offhand @ 100yds, with the AK stringing just a little more vertically.

[Dr.Rob]

He said rested off a bench.

Off hand.. no way I could shoot 3 inch groups with an AK, however, sandbagged and set, watching my breath control and squeezing off 3 shot groups with federal premium 223 match ammo.. yeah its possible. Its not EASY but I can do it.

My old 03 can't get that kind of accuracy.. its more like a 5 inch "pattern" at 100 yards.

[BigG]

Mal, you are absolutely right and far be it from me to doubt anybody's assertions on TFL. I just can't do it and neither can anybody else I know.

4X or more Leupold and bench with sandbags, yes, field position and iron sights with rack grade rifle, um, no. My limits are 2" on my lucky day. YMMV

[Steve Smith]

I'm still a rookie HP shooter, but the last match I shot, I had 5 shots into the x ring, which is 1 MOA. That was a 100 yard reduced match, so that was 1". Yes, of course that's with open sights, and I was prone with sling.

[Johnny Guest]

About 12 years ago, I could consistently hold under two inches with my old SP-1 AR15, the standard factory sights, and Remington 55 gr SP ammo. I could get one inch often enough to raise my hopes, but 2" was more normal.

During same time frame, I could do slightly UNDER 2" with a match-tuned M1A and Lake Cities Match ammo.

Alas, during the past five years, my vision has gone downhill and I do well to hit a quart oil can at 100 yards with iron sights, and that only when the light is just right.

Oh, well - - -That's one reason scope sights are so popular, I guess.

Best,
Johnny

[Pappy John]

Darnit......my Garand must be broke! Thats some awful fine shooting, guys. Under perfect conditions I can only wring 4" groups out of combat sights even from a bench rest and bunny bag.

[MakeMyDay]

1/2" 5 shot groups!
I got a SOG AR15-A2 put together by CIA......I know, I know, Luckly I DO have my NOMEX suit on because by now everyone is saying that dude's AR15 must be a total POS!
Well, this one was one of the best looking ones from the batch the dealer had gotten. Believe me, I looks to be worth more than the $495 price tag SOG was showing. Oly Arms lower, Colt upper, very nice muzzle brake (screwed on and welded) and a FAT...No not as is nice- (Well that too!), but FAT as in 1" diameter under the handguards 20" barrel.
This puppy will do 1/2" to 1" ALL day with Winchesters Varmint 45 grainers. It also shoots Hornadys 50 grainers pretty much the in the same fashion.
(All these figures are based on 100 yds. Little or no wind, solid concrete bench, sand bags, PROPER TARGET SIZE!----YES, I think this is very important, ME taking my time and concentrating on the front sight, AND... NO disturbances around you when you squeeze the trigger. You know...SOMEBODY shooting his 7mm Mag with a BOSS system, or brake on the barrel next to you just as you're getting ready to squeeze off a shot. Yeah...ya'll know what I am talking about! ;)

[Art Eatman]

Shifting emphasis a bit: One of the keys to tight groups is having the sight picture for "this time" the same as for "last time". The greater the degree of uniformity of sight picture from shot to shot, the tighter the group. Obvious, right?

Now, what I've seen is that some people just do not have the eye-brain discrimination which allows this degree of fineness in that judging of uniformity. I have no idea why, but somewhere in the processing, things just don't seem to work right.

For those unlucky souls, doing very fine work is a real struggle...It has nothing to do with smarts or strength or experience. It's just what the Good Lord did.

And every now and then I get just real chapped at Him.

:), Art

[Ledbetter]

Usually, something like everything in a 5" circle. Sometimes the rounds find themselves in the sixth inch of black.

My M1A shoots 1 MOA through a scope, but with iron sights I get the above results, same as with my 03A3 Springfield and most everything else I've tried.

Come to think of it, I once shot a sporterized Springfield with target sights and a six ounce trigger, and my group size was no larger than 3".

Can't see well enough to do better than that.

Regards.

[Correia]

I've only shot one sub 1 inch group with iron sights in my life. :) With my Bushmaster, using Blackhills ammo. And I'll chalk that up to luck thank you very much.

My military style rifles, at a good range. From a solid bench.

16' Dissipator:

Usually between 2 and 3 inches, for just about any kind of decent ammo.

Parts FAL:

2 to 5 inches. Tighter when shooting German surplus, opens up more with CAVIM. Haven't done much serious accuracy testing with this gun. I can hit a man size target at 600 yards with iron sights though, and that is good enough for me.

Vepr K:

Haven't shot it for a serious group yet. But seemed to be about the same as the FAL. I've have not had the chance to shoot it past 200 yards yet though.



I'm just not much of a group shooter. I figure that if I can hit the target consistently at most reasonable ranges at a good speed, then I'm doing okay. Usually when I go to an organized range and shoot for groups I just find that I come away discouraged. My groups never seem to be as good as the ones in the magazines. :p (which by the way, made it very refreshing to read Denny's AR & Mini review in SWAT, no BS there).

[Goaltender66]

I can consistently hit a chest-sized target at 100 yards with my SAR-2 and Wolf ammo, using open sights. It isn't stellar, but then that's what the weapon was designed to do. Last time I went to the range (about a month ago) I was doing around 7-8 inch "groups" while using a bipod and a shooting bench. Weather was a bit windy but not like it was gale force or anything. Even though pinpoint accuracy isn't a selling point of the AK, I truly think my AK is more accurate than I am.

Goalie

[Steve Smith]

There is obviously somthing missing here. I won't get on a soapbox about proper sling use because I know you guys are shooting from the bench, but I will say this: A proper tartet will make all the difference. Get yourself a black circle on a white or manilla background. I use a 6.5" circle, as it's the proper reduced-in-ratio HP target. For bench work, use a 6 o'clock hold. Ensure that the front sight is perfectly centered in the rear, then touch the top of the front sight to the bottom of the circle. Squeeze.

[MakeMyDay]

Steve Smith....
I am in 100% agreement with you regarding "Proper Target Size" if you're trying to achieve tiny groups. Some may disagree, but hey...This tactic works for me!---Oh, I also forgot to mention proper and consistant "cheek weld"
:D
MakeMyDay

[OkieCruffler]

I feel rather humbled. Best I can do with my SKS is 4.5 inches. Course, it might help if I'd pay for ammo better than Wolf. Now my M44 on the other hand (Yeah I know, not self loading, but everyone else gets to brag:p ) will do 1.75 inches when everything is going in my favor.

[john1932]

I can get 3 inch grps on a good day with my Bushmaster A2 with 20" barrel and an AK type muzzle break. I have only been shooting this gun for about 700 rds and 5 months so I still have alot of practicing to do. It takes a bit of concentration to get good with iron sights and I tend to think that alot of shooters LIE a little when they say they get 1/2 to 1 inch grps @ 100 yds. I do believe there are good MOA shooters out their though and they can really group up some nice shooting but everytime I go to the range I NEVER see guys shooting 1 moa @ 100 yds unless they have optics.

[Pthfndr]

I've shot several .5" 10 shot groups with my full blown AR15 competition service rifle when doing testing of hand loads from a concrete bench using sandbags front and rear, shooting at a 100 yard reduced SR-1 target. Proper sight alignment, sight picture, breathing and consistency of hold is everything. When testing loads this way I remove the lower hand guard and rest the float tube on the sandbags as close to the mag well as I can get it. From the prone position, with shooting jacket, properly slung up, etc, etc, I can usually keep everything inside the 10 ring.

[-Yo-]

My M1A (that has been unitized by Clint McKee), but still has a flexy synthetic stock can do .8" for three about 1.25" for five shooting Fed GM match.

My Frankengun FAL with a complete Steyr issue upper does about the same. Scoped, I think it is capable of putting 5 in an inch. It is more accurate than any other FAL I've seen at a range.

With military surplus ammo, they both put generally do 2.5-3"

my Colt Hbar runs about 1.5" for five, but that's with a cheap 6x scope.

[Cosmoline]

Rested? What does that prove. Get up off the bench and try it off-hand! I'm gonna make that my motto.

[Mustang6]

Sense firing a mil style riffle...tho in the Marines I shot expert every time.....so im guessing within 3" all the way out to 300...and at 500 im just happy to hit the target and know they arnt getting any closer! Oh and we dont bench the weapon ;)

[Archer1440]

Offhand, standing, with the crappy factory iron sights, using the sling, I can only hold everything in a 10"- 12" circle with my HK SL8-1 at 100 yards, which is only a little better than my Olympic recurve bow at 90 meters on a really good day.

On the other hand, I can shoot sub MOA out to 300 yards with the same rifle with good ammo, a scope and sandbags. Go figure, I must need to work on my form :(

[klh8]

I shot a 3 shot group from the bench at 200yds. with my M1 Garand.Group measured at 2.66 inches.
I can average 1 inch groups at 100yds. most of the time if I can do my part.That is with the std peep sights.
My M1 was accurized.Had a douglas .308 barrel put on it.
My load I shoot is 39 gr. of IMR4895 shooting a 168gr. HPBT sierra match bullet.
Fellas I love my garand.Best shootin rifle I got!

[Frohickey]

Is it fair to throw away the first hand-chambered shot by intentionally shooting at the dirt in front of the target? :p

[Frohickey]

Cosmoline said:
Rested? What does that prove. Get up off the bench and try it off-hand! I'm gonna make that my motto.

I have a better idea. How about off-hand, no sling, in your shorts, in the dead of winter, raining, after drinking 4 cups of strong black coffee. :p

[Ewok_Guy]

Mak-90 with 123 gr. Lapua FMJ Match Ammo.
3 shots.

[Ewok_Guy]

Mak-90 using Wolf 122 gr. FMJ ammo.
5 shots.

P.S. I hate the high sight line of an Ak or AR! :p

[Cosmoline]

"I have a better idea. How about off-hand, no sling, in your shorts, in the dead of winter, raining, after drinking 4 cups of strong black coffee"

Now you're talking! I prefer to shoot when the range is a sheet of ice and the wind chill factor is about -30. Either that or in a snowstorm. The point is as much to test me as the rifle. oam I crazy? Or am I SO SANE your head is spinning around at his very moment!

[Edward429451]

Just went shootin last saturday with my Loaded M1A. Best of the day at 100 with iron sights was 10 shots into 3.96" with 6 of them landing in 1.90" using my handloads of 180/41.5 4064...prone, no sling.

Offhand?:rolleyes: :D I'm workin on that! Standing's easier than offhand...

[Khornet]

H&R mid-1950s rifle untreated in any way except cleaning. 100 yd from a front bag only, right fist under the stock back of the pistol grip (I'm a lefty). 50-yd pistol target. 147 gr FMJBT, Fed. 215 primer, 748/49.5 grs. Best group 3 1/2" 10 rds. But I can barely see the bull.

While I agree that the sights should be one's main focus, especially with pistols, I don't think that's the case with rest shooting for group. Then you want that sight on the same place in the bull every time. You need to see the bull well.

[Dave R]

OK, I'll play. With my SAR-3, using PMC ammo I can get 4-5" groups regularly with the iron. 4" is best. Wolf ammo opens it up to 6".

With my buddy's special 45 gr handloads, loaded light, I got a 1.5" group last Saturday. But that was with a scope.

I have got to get into reloading.

[Bogie]

My accurate rifles don't have iron sights.

My bushy dissipator groups about 3/4" but is finicky about ammo.

[Futo Inu]

SwampyMo:

Do you mean to say that some of the greatest shooters are slightly far-sighted, not perfectly sighted, for some reason? Why do you suppose that is? I myself am already -7 diopters at the tender age of 32, and even with theoretically full correction with contacts, I see two front sights (double vision) with iron sights, so I'm lucky to get a 6-8" group. Im sure I could have done better 15 years ago if I had tried then.

Steve Smith:

The target you described - please tell us - what is the exact diameter of the center bullseye on it? Perhaps I could do much better if I had this type of target and better light conditions. Depends on gun too, of course. But I suspect that I haven't yet shot up to the potential of any of my guns, except maybe the SKS.

Future gun writers here? Ha! :D

[Denny Hansen]

My eyes are not what they once were, but on a good day with a cigarette or two, just the right amount of coffee, the wind is blowin' just right and some luck I can group 5 shots around 4 inches with iron sights. To tell the plain truth, 5-6 inches is more common with me.

(damn, guess I need to go back to gunwriter school and have smaller groups)