S&W autos

[RandyV]

Aside from Smith selling out, why the bad feeling towards S&W autos? Arent they reliable?

[Jhp147]

I have seen LOTS of rounds go through the 3rd generation guns, own three. Yes, very reliable. I think the less than stellar reliability and crummy triggers of some earlier guns (owned 2, had no problems with the 459 or 469 however) still haunts them. Plus, no "cool factor," like with a 1911, BHP, or *lock.

[dick w. holliday]

Can't really comment on the new guns but the older guns like mod 39 and similar guns were as reliable as anybodies gun---i would bet my ass that they would shoot every time....However accuracy was something else--not very accurate......When my daughter wanted a house gun i got her a mod 39.....Dick

[Arub]

Sigma series seem to have earned a bad reputation. Current posts in progress over the last few days on 'Shooters' forums.

[1goodshot]

My 2 S&W autos work great, they never jam.I have no bad feeling at all :)

[AndABeer]

I did not like the ones I owned because I could not seem to shoot them well. This was a 659, a 6946, and a 5906. Obviously, all 9mms. The 659 jammed quite a bit. The other two were reliable but not real accurate, at least in my hands. Triggers were pretty mediocre. Swore S&Ws off for quite some time.

Recently bought a NIB 1076 and liked it so much I have a 1006 and a 4576 on the way from Gunbroker. Hope to have them by the end of the week. I'll be shooting the 1076 at IDPA tomorrow. Cool pistol chambered for a great round. I did have to change the grips to make it comfortable to me and disabled the mag safety but other than that, it is stock.

[Mal H]

I have only one - a 4006. It is very reliable and not fussy about ammo. However, I have to replace the grit in the trigger assembly every 6 months or it doesn't feel right. One of the worst trigger feels IMX. It has complex trigger, disconnector and mag safety assemblies. It has too much doodadiness going for it. (Look that one up in your Funk 'n Wagnalls.) Compared to the likes of a SIG, it is way over engineered and you get nothing substantial in return.

[Russ]

I have a 457. This is the basic .45 with aluminum frame. I got it shortly before S&W decided to sell out. It has been very reliable. Not one jam. There is some wear on the slide rails I am not thrilled about but it hasn't made the gun any less reliable. Since I bought it, it has gone up $120 "on sale" at some large gun shops. It's no BHP but for what I got it for, it works fine.

[Sundance]

I carried a 5906 9mm 40 hours a week for 4 years straight. Before I started carrying it I received 40 hours instruction in it where I fired 1000 rounds through it in 5 days. I deliberately neglected cleaning it or the mags at all whatsoever during this period as a "torture test". Guess what...absolutely ZERO malfunctions. I had no trouble putting bullets through the same hole at 0 to 10 yards and fist size groups at 15 to 20 yards and paper plate size groups at 25 to 30 yards. During the period I carried the gun I had no parts breakages. Is it reliable...YES! Is it durable...YES! Is it combat accurate...YES! Is it a good choice as a self defense gun...YES! Would it be my first choice...Probably not, as i do not care for the 9mm as much as the .45 and I despise magazine disconnect safeties (which are easily removed). I generally prefer Glocks and Sigs to the S&W. However, during my 40 hour instruction I mentioned above, there were S&W, Ruger, Glock, and Sig pistols present. The S&W and Rugers had almost no problems. The Sigs had some. The Glocks had major problems...especially from a lady with a Glock 23. She had literally dozens of malfunctions and a parts breakage (front sight flew off). Would I buy a Sigma...absolutely not!!!

[Tamara]

Back in the Pliestocene epoch, a 659 was my primary CCW gun. Bullets were made out of rocks, and came in only two types: Silvertip and FMJ. The 659 fed them both reliably. It weighed a metric ton, but it was all stainless steel (ooh!), and it held a buttload of bullets (ahh!). It had horrible amounts of slack in the SA trigger, but I was too young to be bothered by it. Sometime after my third hernia repair from toting it, the FBI informed us that 9mm bullets had bounced off Platt & Matix, and if you didn't have a .40, you weren't squat; so I traded my 659 for a Ruger KP-91DAO.

Sometime later, I also had a 4006 with extended mag, flashlight, and laser for a house gun; just like in all the gun rags! It worked okay, but I seem to recall there were one or two bullet weight/shapes it wasn't real fond of.

The best *&* auto I've owned or shot was my 3913LS. You'd think these things came from the performance center, or were hand made by gnomes in a German forest to *&*'s specifications. Nice gun.

[Abominable No-Man]

Arub-

I've had two Sigmas, one original, one enhanced (still have the
enhanced), but I've never had trouble with them. The enhanced
version is better, but they both fed everything I put in them, and
they were at least combat accurate. I guess it's the same with
every other pistol; some swear by them, and some swear at
them.

ANM

[Mike Irwin]

My biggest problem with S&W semi-autos is:

1. Ergonomics. With the exception of the 3913 and the 645/4506, they're ergonomic nightmares. The controls are in all the wrong places, the grips, especially on the double stack guns don't help, balance is off, etc.

The Chief's Special series of semi-autos ought to be called the Brick Special series. A chunk of 2x4 has better ergonomics.

2. Safety operation. It virtually requires using the second hand to operate it.

3. Trigger. Generally poor triggers, gritty, crunchy, hard, stacking.

4. Accuracy. I've never found S&W semi-autos to be particularly accurate. Passably accurate yes, but for the supposed amount of engineering/manufacturing that goes into these guns, I feel they should be more accurate. There are exceptions, both ways.

My former brother in law's 645 was a tack driver. I think it could have competed with a tricked out Colt 1911.

A friend's 910 had trouble cutting a 7" group at 10 yards. I thought it was just him, so I fired it off the bench. Very, very bad. A trip back to S&W didn't solve the problem. He ended up trading it towards a Sig.

5. Reliability. I've never found S&W semi-autos to be as reliable as I believe they should be, given the high price.

5. Value for the money. Given the sum total of the above mentioned points, none of which in and of itself is a true killer, the guns just aren't a very good value for the prices that are asked for them.

There are other guns -- Rugers and CZs that spring to mind -- that offer far greater value, and improve on some of the above points.

[Ala Dan]

My previous experience with Smith & Wesson auto's
consisted of 2X-39-2's, and a 459. All of these guns
were fully functional and very reliable. I never had a
desire to own a S&W Sigma series handgun, always
opting for the Glock's instead.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.

[Morgan]

I don't own any myself, but I trust them enough that I bought my father a 6926. Nice size, accurate, decent trigger, reliable.

[Jager1]

You don't get what you pay for. Check out the price for a S&W and then compare its price to that of another manufacturer with a comparable offering. Nothing Smith & Wesson is producing in an automatic can't be had for the same or even a lower price from someone else. And this is coming from a former Smith & Wesson owner and fan.

Had a 1st generation aluminum alloy frame Model 59 that was a charmer. Reliable, accurate and went through more rounds than it was ever intended to survive and more than any 9mm I've owned since. It finally began to act quirky of feeding, so I gave it to a friend who had it worked over. Don't remember what he said the problem was, but it was relatively minor. Although a lot of people claim they had problems with their 1st generation Smith & Wesson autos, it was positively not the case with mine.

Never managed to obtain a 2nd generation version.

Got a 3rd generation 5906 that had been lightly used. Gorgeous, reliable, all stainless steel. It couldn't pattern with any ammunition put through it (and I tried everything). Best it could manage was. IIRC, 5-6" at 35' with the best ammunition. I hated selling that looker after wanting one for so long, but it did not meet my minimal standards for accuracy in a carry piece.

I don't see any Smith & Wesson autos that interest me today outside from the 3913. The fact that I will not purchase any handguns from them until they renounce the agreement assures they will get to keep the one they built for me, perhaps selling it to some HCI bootlicker type.

Doesn't matter much anymore what Smith & Wesson does. I've moved on to Sig-Sauer's and a P239 will positively fill any void that might have been occupied by the 3913. The P226's I own positively overflow the void, especially in the accuracy department, left by the 5906. Only thing I miss are those plentiful and relatively inexpensive standard capacity magazines.

I'll quit before I turn this into something best placed on the political forums.;)

[stevetuna]

I bought a 5906 from my father-in-law about five years ago. I've never really warmed up to the thing. IMHO, it pales when compared to my Sig 226 or Glock 19. It's heavy and just doesn't feel great to me. I really don't like the safety setup either.

On the good side of the fence, this gun will eat every bit of ammo I feed it. Funky reloads that I'd never stuff through my other 9's are happily banged through the 5906. It's as accurate as I allow it to be (no blaming the gun from me...). It makes the travelling team to the range every now and then. It's just not my first choice.

[Zoso]

I often heard smith autos referred to as jammomatics. They are far from as reliable as they should be, and with products like glock on the market, who would want one. Smith sigma's, don't even get me started on those, I have seen a ton of those come back for warranty work.

[AndABeer]

They are far from as reliable as they should be, and with products like glock on the market, who would want one.

I guess I would as my 1076 has yet to jam and my Glock 29 is in Smyrna hopefully being cured of its chronic jamming problem.

[MP-5]

My 2nd gen. Smith 645 was AWESOME and still is! Accurate reliable (one of few that Never malfunctioned). Will outshoot a Gold Cup! Double action trigger was never great but it still shot light out!:)

[Spackler]

I've owned three Smith autos, and liked them all a great deal. I've carried a 4013TSW for three years, it's been perfectly reliable. In fact it's been more reliable than my Sig P225 (took a few hundred rounds to break-in the Sig, and the Smith was reliable right out of the box). I've heard the rap about Smith autos not being accurate, but I haven't had that problem with any of mine (although my model 410 was junk with certain ammo).

[stans]

I have owned two Smith autos. A model 39-2 and a model 439. I still have and carry the 439. Both were very reliable, only one failure to extract with the 39-2 and that round had a problem with the rim. The 39-2 was combat accurate, but that was all that could be said. My 439 is more accurate with loads it likes. Bad ammo will yield 6-10 inch patterns at 25 yards, good ammo gives 3-4 inch groups. I like the grip profile of the 39 and 439, but the triggers leave much to be desired.

[J. Parker]

I'll echo what Mike Irwin said. I think their problem is their price. With all the excellent semi-auto's out there today why would Mr. Parker spend $700 on a Smith semi? Well, he wouldn't.
I do however have a S&W model 457 that IMO is a great little pistol. It's short, compact, lightweight, and has never failed to fire. Very nice pistol IMO.
I think it's just competition. There's just too much good stuff out there. Best, J. Parker

[Captain]

I currently own 4 S&W auto pistols and love them all. They all work all the time and are plenty accurate for what I need them for. I have a 3913 that has over 5,000 rounds without a single malfunction. I also have a 5906 that I've been using for IDPA and it also has never malfunctioned. I have a 4013 that I carry often however it's only been shot about 1,000 rounds (without a malfunction). Lastly I have a CQB from the Performance Center and it's a real sweety. This is the only S&W auto I've owned that has malfunctioned. I finally figured out that the magazine springs were weak. Replaced them with Wolff's 10% + power springs and it's run fine ever since.

[Jhp147]

There seems to be a greater number of S&W auto fans here than I would have guessed. A lot of similar gripes, so I will add a suggestion or two that I hope will help. First, if you are talking about the DA/SA model, you are talking about a harder than average gun to learn to shoot well. A SA auto or even a *lock is easier to teach or to learn. The trigger transition has to be learned so that you can take advantage of the nice SA shots. I can't teach it over the 'net, but maybe someone can. I was surpised to learn that a large PD in Texas allows it officers to carry DA/SA weapons and teaches NOTHING about how to control that trigger, so I bet it happens in a lot of places. Next, shoot the heck out of it. I have a 5904 with an incredible action. Everyone who pulls the trigger says "who did the action?" I said "me, and about a million rounds." I then got it NP3ed, so it is even slicker. No, it is not for sale. Next, if you don't have the time and patience to do that, Teddy Jacobsen at www.actionsbyt.com has dolled up two other DA/SA guns for me. He is fast and good and will make your gun much more shootable.
To those who don't like the placement of the safety, the mag safety etc., you have a valid points and opinion. Then again, I don't think Smith wants you to use the safety as a safety, I think they use it as a "hammer drop." The gun is perfectly safe to carry safety off if YOU are comfortable with it that way. The mag safety, again, personal opinion...I like 'em.
It seems to me and evidently a few others that these guns seem to eat anything that you can stuff into the magazine, and keep going. That is a lot to say for a gun. As the auto(mobile) folks say, "Reliability is job #1." And if you DO break one, I have seen Smith and Wesson treat folks VERY nicely when it comes to warranty repair time.

[Hemicuda]

Well, as the proud owner of a 5906, a 4006, and a 4506, and former owner of a 5904, I can say that these are EXCELLENT guns... eat anything I put in them, a BIT hard to conceal, but ALWAYS reliable...

I have a line on a 1006 to add in, and hope to have it by the end of the week!

WONDERFUL weapons...

[Larry Wright]

I've had a 459 for over 15 years; it has fired every time I pulled the trigger. As for accuracy, well it's probably better than I am. It conceals well and I, at least, like its looks.

[PeterGunn]

My first full-power, service sized pistol was a S&W 915.:)

For those who may not remember, the 915 was basically a economy model 5904. The differences were minor but included:

1. A right side only, safety/hammer disconnect.

2. Basic finish

3. Standard fixed sights

4. Slightly different shape in the slide.

5. Only one standard capacity magazine (15 rounds)

My experiences with this gun were all positive, save one. The grip pattern on this gun was of the straight back design. For me, ALL straight backed grips are not comfortable, and require a lot of adjustments to shoot straight. Since I was too young and stupid to know better, I never realized replacement curved grips were available. DUH!!!:rolleyes:

I sold the gun for rent money in my first year after college...oh well.

I currently own (2) Sigs, a Bersa series 95, and my lone S&W 4506.

The 4506 has absolutely blown me away (not literally). What a wonderful .45!!! :D The trigger is smooth, the action is solid, and the fit and finish is superb. A very accurate gun out of the box, almot as accurate as my 226, but no where near my 225.

I would recomend the S&W line of autos as much as any other brand, with the foundation that all guns should be handled and shot first before becoming a serious consideration for defence or serious shooting.

[claypigeon]

I own three S&W autos, a 3913 which I carry in the summer, a 645 for winter carry and a 1006. All three have been 100% reliable in function when using commercial ammo to shoot. About the only gripe I have is the weight of the 645, it gets a little heavy,but then again it is one of the few 45 acps that I own that I can shoot either off-handed or weak handed and have good enough control for follow up shots if nned be.

[CZ_]

S&W autos
Aside from Smith selling out, why the bad feeling towards S&W autos? Arent they reliable?

I had a 457 that couldn't go through a magazine without FTF's. It was a total POS, and even the trigger pulls were pathetic. While it was probably a lemon, my experience with S&W autoloaders has led me to the conclusion that S&W produces A LOT more semi-auto lemons than some of the Euro makers do (ie Sig, Glock). I personally wouldn't buy another S&W semi-auto unless I was able to try it first. I've just seen too many problems to have any faith in them. OTOH, their revolvers are nice!

As far as the "agreement" goes, that is not a factor in my problems with the product. If S&W made good semi-autos, I'd buy them again. Unfortunantly, IMO they don't make good ones in general.

[RandyV]

Thanks for all the opionions. I purchased the 1076. Once i get it ill let you all know what i think of it.

[Kevinch]

Thanks for all the opionions. I purchased the 1076. Once i get it ill let you all know what i think of it.

I'm not up on the new S&W model numbers, so I don't know if the 1076 is new or used. I can only hope you didn't fund S&W's attempt at limiting our RKBA.

Aside from that, my 4516-1, bought in the early 90s, was a very reliable gun. Never failed to function less than 100% with anything I chose to fill the mag with. Reasonably accurate for its intent, which was defensive use.

I just sold it a few weeks ago, as I have purchased a light weight compact 1911 to replace it. The S&W was just too heavy for me to be comfortable in CCW use. Other than that, it gave me years of service without hiccups. I will admit that the 1911 grip frame seems to fit my hand better.

Although I think S&W's revolvers sit higher on the pecking list than their autos, pricing aside I think they are good guns.

[AndABeer]

the 1076 was discontinued long before the cursed Agreement took place, you needed worry about S&W getting $ from that purchace

[trapshooter]

When I was in the market for a 'hi-cap' nine, I first had a (used) glock. I didn't like the grip, and the lack of an exposed hammer. Traded for a (used) 5906. That was eight years ago. I don't use the smith very much, but it shoots ok, and if I ever need a pistol that shoots

a butt-load of bullets

(thanks for that very accurate descriptive, Tamara:D )

I've got that baby handy. Yep,it's heavy, but in my mind, that just cuts the recoil. Plus, my wife likes to shoot it. (I just have to jack the slide for her one time).:rolleyes:

Hasn't jammed on me, either.

[45WORKS]

I currently own two;a 4506 and a 4566. I've had a lot of creature comfort work done to them to get them in their current states. We had problems with the extractor in the 4506, but the factory has put the proper tension spring in now. Also, the trigger rebound spring(the little piece of metal that looks like rabbit ears and is held in by a rivet) would break about every 1000 rounds.

I would like to replace the 4506, but S & W, in their infinite wisdom, discontinued the 5" full size pistols.

[benEzra]

I have and carry a 3913LS (and agree 100% with Tamara's assessment).

A S&W rep told me that the factory spends a little more time on the "LS" trigger than on that of the standard 3913. Mine certainly has a nice trigger. The safety/decocker was a little gritty to start with, but it smoothed up with use. It has NEVER malfunctioned, not even once. (I can't even say that about my wife's G26.)

The main reason I chose the LS is the non-ambidextrous safety (ambi safety adds unnecessary width, IMO) and the slanted grip frame looks "cooler" than the standard boxy 3913. I had originally intended to purchase the "NL" (No Logo) version, but they discontinued that before I purchased. So mine says "LadySmith" in nice cursive script on the slide . . . :D (No one at the range has ever kidded me about it, though--the normal reaction has been "ooh, that's a nice gun . . ."

Accuracy is excellent for a compact 9mm, IMO (head shots at 25 yards are pretty easy), but the sights were off a tad to the left from the factory.

The main drawbacks I see are:

price (mucho $$$), although the 908 (same gun internally) is cheaper

size--it was considered "subcompact" when I bought it, but Kahrs and such now make it seem a little oversized. Still, I have no problem concealing it, even in Florida in the summer (and I am only 5'6" / 150 lb)

less "personality" than glocks, etc. (subjective)

not "officially" rated for +P ammo, per owner's manual, though I understand that some people with 3913's shoot +P+ regularly with no problems.

unsavory political moves by the manufacturer . . . I bought mine long before the 'agreement' went down, but even then I didn't send in my warranty card because I frankly just didn't trust the company. It asked all sorts of nosy questions, wanted the full serial number, etc., and I just didn't feel I could trust them to keep that information private, given the political climate in Mass.

---

[weldonjr2001]

Well, over the years I've had a 469, 669, 659 and currently a 457. I've never had a malfunction with any of them. That's several thousand rounds between them. They are about the hardest pistols to reassemble I've come across but they always eventually got back together. I would love to get my hands on a 3913. The standard series is a little rough around the edges compared to standard Berettas, Sigs, Glocks, etc. but I like 'em.

[defox]

PeterGunn,

Could you tell me where I can get replacement curved grips for the Model 915.

[bowhnter]

I have a 6906, compact 9mm. (see photo)
I have fed it around 1000 various rounds.
I have yet to have a misfeed or jam.
I might add that I bought it PRE-sellout, but if that's what makes you happy by all means get it. I'm happy with mine.

[adk]

The 3913 and 3913LS make a good marriage. The guns work identically and the magazines are interchangeable. Perfect reliability so far. No complaints about the DA first shot or the controls or the magazine safety or the trigger, or anything. Always 8+1 rounds of 124 +P Gold Dots in both. We find these guns are really easy and safe to use. Maybe a little short on firepower, so we practice teamwork.