Yugo SKS's. They are everywhere! What about the PRK?

[El Rojo]

I have noticed that SOG no longer offers the Yugo SKS or the French MAS semi-autos for sale in the PRK. My question is this, is it only SOG? I know why SOG does it, I e-mailed them and they replied it had to do with the AW ban and the climate in the PRK. My question is this, I thought the AW ban only had to do with guns with detachable mags. So is SOG just being safe? Anyone else offer these fine weapons for us PRK C&R holders?

Next question. I am heading for the Shot Show. What are the rules on buing firearms out of state and importing them in yourself? With my C&R I should be fine, but I was wondering about other firearms. What are the rules say if I wanted to buy a legal PRK firearm out of state and bring it in? Just curious. Or say if a friend wants to buy a C&R gun in Nevada on the spot and then bring it back with him? Thanks.

[Mark O]

The only thing i can see making them unimportable to Ca is that they both have grenade launchers.

Don't Ca C&R buyers have to go through the DROS process and transfer through an FFL?

[Gewehr98]

Otherwise they'd be importable into Kalifornia, just like the the Russian SKS rifles. Thanks to Roberti-Roos and SB-23 for that one!:(

[El Rojo]

I am still confused. I think they are legal in the PRK for the reason that they are semi-automatic rifles with a fixed 10 round magazine. Since they have a fixed 10 round magazine, they do not fall under the assault weapons ban. If they were banned for just having one of the nasty AW features, then the Romanian SKS's that were recently flooding the country would have been AWs in the PRK too due to a bayonet. I think you guys are wrong. Could you issue evidence that proves your point? I could be mistaken, but I keep running into the part where it says, "A semi-automatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any of the following..."

[Destructo6]

The grenade launcher is an absolutely prohibited feature. You can't even buy one from Nortridge International for your Garand if you live in CA. I believe this was a Rooberti-Roos prohibition as said above.

[Mark O]

I think to have a bayonet it has to be a C&R gun.

You have to remember the SKS has been severely demonized in Kali.Certain models were banned when you could still buy post ban guns(AK's,AR's,and a number of other rifles with high capacity magazines)in Kali.

[El Rojo]

Yeah the SKS's they went after were the "sporter" versions that were modified to accept AK mags. Hmmm, does anyone have a reference to this grenade launcher thing? Everywhere I have read it is simply part of the list of things you can't have on your centerfire rifle that has a detachable magazine. Thanks for your replies and help.

[Destructo6]

This is about the only thing I could find, but it seems more recent than SB23:

12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.
(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

[JohnB]

The grenade part is a bit touchy, but you can certainly buy it with your C&R and bring it back in the state just consider taking the launcher off. And yes, the bayonet can stay.

[saands]

I'm surprised you guys haven't figured this one out yet :D C&R in PRK requires that the gun is at least 50 years old ... the Yugos and almost ALL other SKS's don't meet this criteria (that I know of, only a select few SKS's from the Tula arsenal in Russia meet the criteria of being produced in 50 or 51).

The passage above from 12301 makes it sound alot like the grenade launchers are verboten ... I'll have to look that one up and read it in context.

Destructo6: Thanks SOOO much for quoting the section ... it makes it a whole lot easier to go do the research without doing ALL of the research. We need to help each other out in that sense

12078 (t) (2) states that:
"(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations."

Subdivision (d) of 12072 is where it says that you must use a 01FFL to transfer your weapons ...

[Gewehr98]

Here's the Kalifornia DOJ section pertaining to C&R transactions:
__________________________________________________
Section 12071. On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm or the law enforcement agency processing the transaction pursuant to Section 12084, shall forward by prepaid mail to the Department of Justice a report of the transaction pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 12077 or Section 12084. If the electronic or telephonic transfer of applicant information is used, on the date that the application to purchase is completed, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077.

(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
__________________________________________________




The Federal regulation that defines curio and relic status of collectible guns, for those of us who hold C&R FFL's, lists MANY guns that aren't necessarily 50 years old:

__________________________________________________
"Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.) Be certified by the curator of a municipal, state or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.) Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

[27 CFR 178.11]"
__________________________________________________


Now, having quoted the above straight from the regulation, here's the current Federal C&R list of weapons:


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm


Operative words being curio OR relic. As you can see, plenty of guns that aren't 50 years old, and the Kalifornia DOJ refers (and defers) to 27 CFR 178.11 as their criteria for C&R eligibility. Hence, the newer C&R eligible Winchester commemorative Model 94's, several post-'64 Winchester Model 70's, and the BATF commemorative S&W Model 66 revolver, made as recently as 1983. ;)

[Gewehr98]

El Rojo, did you see this? The M-51 Yugoslavian SKS, sans grenade launcher. Check it out:

http://www.southernohiogun.com/

This is in contrast to the M-51/66 SKS, with the evil, Kalifornia-offending grenade launcher.

[El Rojo]

Thanks GeWehr98. Did you notice the non-grenade version also said "No sales to California"? I hate this state.

So what was the final verdict? Is SOG being overly cautious or is there really no way to get this rifle? I might just buy one at the Antique show this weekend in Vegas and bring it back with me. What can they do? Throw me in prison and take away my guns? Oh ya, they can. :mad:

[EOD Guy]

There is no California regulation that defines a curio and relic firearm as being more then 50 years old. California follows the same rules as the Feds as far as determining C&R status. The regulation quoted above relates to those private party sales that do not have to be conducted through a dealer. The licensee status of the parties involved is irrelevant.

[saands]

I have a pretty busy day at work today, so I can't root around too much for this, but I am certain that CA doesn't allow for all BATF C&R rules to be followed ... for example you cannot receive a C&R handgun in CA. The section quoted above does not list any exception to filing the DROS for C&R transfers in CA. What is not clear to me is whether or not you can still have a 1960 Romanian SKS (BATF FFL, no dangerous weapon violation) shipped to CA from outside the state ... that might not be a "transfer" ... but it seems that no one will "C&R ship" rifles that are not 50 years old to CA. So it doesn't seem promising.

Empire Arms has this section, but they don't reference the section of the CA code:

http://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm

If you guys find otherwise, PLEASE show me I'm wrong about the 50 year rule ... I'd love to be wrong here!

Saands

[saands]

El Rojo ...

If you have an 03 FFL, you can legally go to the show in Vegas in person and bring the non-launcher version home with you.

Saands

[El Rojo]

Saands. The reason you can't buy certain handguns in this state is because of SB 15. SB 15 was the "junk gun" bill that stated that if manufacturers wanted to sell handguns in this state, they had to have certain features and the manufacturers had to pay for the weapons to be tested by some independent lab to certify they could pass certain drop tests...yada, yada, yada. So in effect all older handguns can no longer be sold in the state, including some C&R guns. Funny sidenote, all of the cheap guns the bill was aimed at banning easily passed the test. So that is why certain handguns cannot be sold in the state.

Next item. I just want to confirm that a C&R license is a 03 FFL. I just looked at my license and saw no 03 FFL designation, but I think I recall it being called that.

I think I might just call the BATF and ask them to clarify for us as none of us seem to know exactly the red-tape this wonderful state has wrapped me in.

[saands]

El Rojo: I believe that the "junk gun" bill applies to new handguns ... C&R handguns are usually used, so the manufacturers aren't involved here. There are SPECIFIC references to C&R pistols in the CA penal code.

If you talk to the BATF, I don't think that they will have much to say as they are OK with all of this ... it is the CA DOJ that I would recommnend talking to. I think I will write them a note and try to get a response in writing that I can file.

Please let us know what you find ... I just spent a few minutes searching/reading and I have to admit that it (the CA code) does read like EOD Guy is correct ... It just makes me cautious when I see that no one will sell C&R rifles less than 50 years old to us and Empire Arms comes out and says what they have.

Good luck,
Saands

[Destructo6]

The way I read that passage is the weapon is considered C&R if it is 50+ years old, or it is an original from some historically interesting period. A Com-Bloc SKS from the 1960's should satisfy that last set of requirements.

[ATeaM]

"Thanks GeWehr98. Did you notice the non-grenade version also said "No sales to California"? I hate this state."


What's the difference between a Yugo without a grenade launcher and all the Romanians I see at the gunstores here ?

And if it's just the grenade launcher, couldn't you have it removed and remain legal ?

I know there on non C&R chinese SKS' with fixed mags still in circulation. All they did to remain legal was remove the bayonet.


Grenade launchers for grenades that are impossible to get, bayonets duller than a butter knife...are safer than 10 rounds of 7.62X39 (which is proven safer than the extra 20 rounds in a detachable mag).

:barf:

[saands]

Sooooo ... I fianlly called the DOJ office in Sacramento and asked the question. They said that the Federal definition of C&R is what they go by. They added that anything that was otherwise illegal to import into the state (AW or dangerous weapon like a grenade launcher) would still be illegal. I am very confused (happily) because their response DOES NOT explain why companies won't ship your Plain Jane Romanian or Russian SKS to C&R holders in CA. I will call some dealers and see what they have to say.

Saands