ca laws

[la rue]

let me ask a coupla quick questions.the ca doj website
is so full of double speak hard to figure out.
out of state sale,ie:internet sales,even if it's a used pistol
but it's not on the approved list can i buy it?
can it be bought from an individual who doesn't have an
ffl as long as i go through an ffl?
thanks

[bruels]

Pistols not on the approved list can be transferred between private parties. You still have to go through a FFL to affect the transfer.

[Bobshouse]

If the gun is in california, used, and not on the approved list it can be transferred.

You cannot purchase a used handgun that is not on the list from out of state.

Some people say you can, but I have not found a FFL who would do it. Like you say the laws are written so bad nobody can understand them.

[SIGarmed]

If its used and not on the list it can only be transfered in the presence of the former owner through a FFL. This is termed a "private sale" in California.

[la rue]

thanks for the info fellows!!

[PKAY]

Private party transfers of handguns not on the DOJ Approved List must be effected by both parties in person before the transfer dealer FFL within the state of CA. No out of state transfers of unlisted handguns (except C&R's and single action revolvers) may take place where the buyer is in CA and the seller is out of state. The reverse is OK, however. If you, as a CA resident, want to sell your handgun to an out of state buyer, the DOJ is happy to let you do it since it means "fewer guns ON THE STREET." (Doncha' juss love how any gun in private hands is always ON THE STREET? I keep mine safely secured and I know of no one in the group of gun buddies I have who doesn't.)

[MatthewM]

I've read all the law and all the commentary recorded in writing the law. There are no requirements as stated here that the sale must be in person.

We have bought SEVERAL pistols not on the list from out of state through SEVERAL different FFL dealers. One of them called the CADOJ while I stood there and was told that I was correct and to procede with the sale.

12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following ....( private party sales)...

If the law does not apply to private party sales, then it has no impact on them whatsoever.

Download the PDF file:
Information Bulletin 2000 FD-07
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/infobuls/0007.pdf

See Page 4.
This bulletin is the common language directions for FFL dealers.

This info is purposely somewhat hidden in the actual law. Remember that laws mostly spell out what is disallowed, not what is allowed.

You cannot buy a pistol from out of state directly from a dealer. However, you can buy it from a private party who ships it to your FFL dealer.
You could, therefor, have a person outside the state buy a NEW pistol and record it in their name. They could then sell it to you.

Remember that this law was not written for any specific good of the public, just to hassle us. As such, it's passage was the only important thing, not what it did. It was never really meant to "protect" any of us from "unsafe" firearms.

[PKAY]

MathewM - Thanks for your info. You state that "we" have purchased "several pistols not on the list from out of state FFL's." Were these handguns exempted (C&R's or Single Action Revos) or were they older untested models of modern manufacture (S&W Model 10, 27, 29, etc.)? If they were of the latter category it would appear to be in violation of SB15's importation provision.

[Bobshouse]

I find no exemption for "private party" sales or transfers in 12132...

12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section
12082 or 12084 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section
12072.
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from
the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any
applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan,
or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable
exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(c) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm as described in
paragraph (3) of subdivision (b) of Section 12125.
(d) The delivery of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person to a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 for the purposes of the service or repair of that firearm.
(e) The return of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 to its owner where that firearm was initially delivered in the circumstance set forth in subdivision (d).
(f) The return of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 to its owner where that firearm was initially delivered to that licensee for the purpose of a consignment sale or as collateral for a pawnbroker loan.
(g) The sale, loan, or transfer of any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person listed as a curio or relic, as defined in Section 178.11 of the Code of Federal
Regulations.

In your pamphlet it is talking about "private party" transfers between individuals residing IN the state of california. Guns not on the approved list can still be sold between individuals in the state or can be sold to individuals out of state.

[pvanosta]

MatthewM:
Can you give me some pointers as to which California FFL's you've used? I'm trying to buy a revolver not on the list by having it "bought" by an out-of-state friend, who would then "sell" it to me.
I need a FFL in California who will work with me.

Thanks!

[EOD Guy]

Bobshouse,

The exemption is there, you just have to decipher it. It is under 12132(a). Transfer pursuant to Section 12082 is transfer by a dealer. Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 is a sale between unlicensed persons (private party sale).

[EOD Guy]

pvanosta,

I doubt if you will find an FFL to "work with you" because you are flirting with a straw purchase which is a violation of federal law.

[Bobshouse]

I just sent an email with the question to the california department of firearms, going to get the answer straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. I will post it here if and when they respond.

Bob

[MatthewM]

PKAY, you quoted me, but changed my wording. We DID NOT purchase from out of state FFL's. We bought from private parties who were out of state and who shipped to our IN STATE ffl dealers. The state requires an in state ffl dealer to fill out papers and hand you the gun.

Bob, you quote the law which is full of cross referenced section numbers and then say that the private party exemption is not there. Then you say that "in state" private transfers ARE ok. You are trying to slice it both ways.
-Can you show me language that says both parties must be residents.

PVANOSTA: www.gunbroker.com has an FFL resource guide. So does your yellow pages. Print out the pdf file I referenced above, call a couple brokers and ask if you understand correctly. If they agree, buy the pistol.
http://www.gunbroker.com/user/dealernetwork.asp
As far as your "straw purchase" that is none of my or your FFL dealers business. A letter from your friend thanking you for taking this "lemon" off his hands might be appropriate. Maybe, I have no idea of his situation.

The law applies to those who are a dealer and offer up for retail sale, new or used. It also prohibits importation for sale. No private party can traverse the border with a gun bought outside the state.

I could go on and on about all that you CANNOT do, but the easier thing is to spell out the ONLY SINGLE thing that you CAN do. That is to buy a used pistol not on the list from only a private party who must ship it to your FFL dealer who must fill out the paper work.

BobsHouse, thanks!!!! Good idea.
All these damn laws are to confusing for most FFL dealers to not end up with their license revoked or in jail.
None of us should EVER ask a FFL dealer to break the law.

[pvanosta]

MatthewM
Thanks.
I found a FFL who did not see any issues in what I'm trying to achieve. I'll keep you posted.
I will have my friend really buy the gun, testfire it and then sell it to me through my FFL.
Thanks for your advice.

[MatthewM]

Information is not the same as advice.

I've no problem with your purchase, but why come here and spell out every detail & thought about it? The difference between "straw purchase" and any other set of transactions are the intent. Your comming here and repeatedly spelling out your illicit intent makes this an illegal purchase.

The physical transactions you propose, are, in my uneducated opinion, legal. However, spelling out your intent here changes it to illegal.

Good luck and have fun with your new toy, but remember that words have meanings and also to keep to yourself that which does not benefit you by voicing.

[Malone LaVeigh]

After John Walker was unearthed in Afghanistan, the media was reporting his online discussion board activities going back quite a few years. Seems to me they had this info very fast and were not slowed down by aliases. If theyu have the ability to get this info, you can be sure the goons in the US security apparatus do also.

[PKAY]

MathewM - I stand by my previous post. You may purchase any long gun, or handgun from a private party out of state. That private party may or may not go through a FFL on his end just as long as the firearm is shipped to a FFL in CA to meet legal requirements for DROS, background check, and waiting period. The only exception here is if the handgun in question is not on the Approved List. If it is an exempt piece as noted above, no problem. If it is on the Approved List, no problem. If it is neither exempt nor on the Approved List it cannot be imported into CA under the provisions of SB15. If it is neither exempt nor on the Approved List, the only way it can be legally purchased in the state of CA is as a private party or consignment transfer wherein both the buyer and seller are CA residents and the gun was already "resident" in the state.

With respect to whether private party sales in CA require both buyer and seller to appear together before the FFL transfer dealer, I have sent email to DOJ asking for clarification. Used to be in consignment transactions for firearms in CA, the FFL had a special form identifying the transaction as such. Now, all consignment transactions are treated the same a private party transfers requiring the seller to complete CA DOJ paperwork relinquishing title. The FFL who sells the consignment piece has the buyer complete the buyer portion of the private transfer paperwork and then submits both buyer and seller completed paperwork to DOJ. The waiting period begins at that point. Some FFL's would not begin the paperwork for either buyer or seller until point of sale. The seller would be requested to come in and fill out the paperwork with the buyer at the same time. It is my understanding that B & B did it this way. Don't know if they still do, though.

I truly wish you were correct and I wrong as hell, here. Do we have a legal expert here at TFL who could chime in. Is Chuck Michel out there somewhere (He's a gun law lawyer here in CA affiliated with the CRPA)?

[MatthewM]

"Consignment sales of unlilsted are SPECIFICALLY not allowed. The sale would then be treated as the FFL placing it up for sale.

"Importing" as used in this law means "Importing For Sale" and is not allowed.

An out of state person who uses his out of state FFL is specifically not allowed because it would take the form of his FFL selling to you here and is not allowed.
Why would a person from outside the state use his FFL to ship to the Calif FFL?

Are you an FFL transfer dealer in Calif?

[PKAY]

Whew! There's a major disconnect somewhere. Consignment sales of unlisted handguns in CA are legal as long as both the buyer and seller are CA residents. It may be because consignment sales are now treated by DOJ as private transfers and the gun already "resides" in CA as opposed to being brought in or "imported."

Importing does not mean just "importing for sale." If one moves to CA from out of state, one must register each and every handgun within 60 days with DOJ. If any of said handguns are not on the list (except those specifically exempted), they cannot be registered. They can be sold to a FFL, however. It is my understanding from DOJ that an unlisted non exempted handgun cannot be purchased from an out of state individual or FFL and imported into CA.

My reference to an out of state seller using an FFL on his end was only for shipping purposes. Some folks like to do it that way. However, I have purchased listed and exempt handguns from both individuals and FFL's from out of state who shipped directly to my FFL here in L.A.

No, I am not a FFL trasfer dealer. I do work closely with one, however. I would certainly welcome your interpretation of the law if DOJ endorses it. Can you contact them and get a definitive response?

[MatthewM]

I sent a letter & email Jan 5. I asked my FFL dealer to do so as well. I'll scan and post any response.

[Good Guy]

Don't see anything in the text of SB15 prohibiting a new resident from bringing his unapproved handguns with him when a move is made to CA. AWs are an entirely different story though, maybe that's where the confusion lies. :confused:

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state
who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or
lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a
county jail not exceeding one year.

[m3bullet]

From discussions in this thread and others, it seems that a CA resident buying a handgun not on the "approved list" from other states hinges on the definition of a CA private party transfer.

Does anyone have a reference to CA regs or laws for the definition of a CA private party transfer? Does the definition allow the handgun seller to be a private party from any state?