7.62NATO vs. 8mm Mauser

[Shin-Tao]

Have any of us compared these two cartridges?

I'd like to see any data you may have compiled or found.

[johnAK]

about the factory ammo for both? or comparing full-potential out of hand-loading?
US factory ammo for 8mm mauser is real mild side, so might be lower than .308 win, Europe factory ammo is full spec,

[johnAK]

about the factory ammo ? or comparing full-potential out of hand-loading?
US factory ammo for 8mm mauser is real mild side, so might be lower than .308 win, Europe factory ammo is full spec hotter than 30-06 I think,

[Shin-Tao]

Both please.

[Snowdog]

Without a book in front of me to refer to, I will do my best to recall the energies.

7.62x51 147gr FMJ usually has energies between 2500-2700 FPE, depending on nation of manufacture.

7.92x57 196gr FMJ usually has energies between 2800-3200 FPE, depending on nation of manufacture.

American 170gr 8x57 ammunition is downloaded to nearly anemic levels, at about 2100 FPE. Still beats a 30-30win however.

[Shin-Tao]

Intersting. Thank you.

Any of you do reloads in 8mm?

[Art Eatman]

The 8mm is sorta between the '06 and the .35 Whelen, to give you some idea of handload performance. Not quite as flat shooting as the '06, but happier with heavier bullets of 200 grains or more.

Haven't actually loaded for it, which is why this comment is sorta "oblique".

:), Art

[Gewehr98]

Are all I run through my 8mm Mauser rifles, both my Amberg 1917 98 Mauser and FN-49. And yes, I load to full European pressure levels. 170gr Speer spire points do a number on Wyoming Elk, as well as Wisconsin whitetail.;)

[Shin-Tao]

Thank you all for the input.

Any one know the specs for Turk milsurp rounds?

[Tamara]

My data on the Turk milsurp might be a little rusty...

(Get it, "rusty"? Corrosive? I kill me... ;) )

I know some people who've had good luck with the el-cheapo Turk surplus, and others who've claimed 5-10 duds per bandolier. As the Romans said, "Caveat emptor, baby".

[Art Eatman]

But, Tamara, why choose slow and painful?

:D, Art

[brandon_h3]

I've shot the cheap Turk, and have had NO problems whatsoever. That stuff makes that 8mm into a cannon.

[C.R.Sam]

A wee tad more for the confusion drawer.

Two bore sizes and two designations for each.

7.9X57 J....8mm Mauser, standard German military load, bore .318", std loading 154gr, 2880 MV, 2835 ME.

7.9X57 S...8mm Mauser, later version. BORE .323.

Warning! Many J bore (.318") rifles still exist and will fire S bore (.323") cartridges, creating dangerous pressures. When in doubt, check bore diamater CAREFULLY !

Sam

[Tamara]

If I have the choice between using warm soapy water to clean my barrel or not, I'll take "not" every time.

Like I said, some people have had good luck with Turk surplus and others haven't. Quality seems to be highly variable, and varies from bandolier to bandolier more than it does within the same bandolier. I've heard five rounds go through a Turk that sounded thusly: "bang. *BOOOM!* Bang! **KAA_BLOWIE!!!* *Boom!*". This is not indicative of consistancy. I also know someone who got a lot of the stuff that shot quite well and grouped decently for milsurp firing from the 200-yard line.

Maybe some of the Turkish stuff was stored in cool dry military magazines and other lots were recovered off the bottoms of swamps; I don't know. ;)

[James K]

Hi, C.R. Sam and folks,

The full power German WWII GI load in 8mm (7.9) makes the 7.62 NATO look a bit puny. Either, of course, is entirely adequate as a military round.

FYI, the old 8x57J has a .318 bullet and groove diameter, not a .318 bore diameter. The new 8x57JS has a .323 bullet and groove diameter. The bore diameter for both is .311. In other words, the change involved deepening the grooves, not changing the bore size.

In converting rifles to the new cartridge, the Germans did nothing to the main rifle barrel at all. They merely ran in a new reamer to cut the chamber throat and leade to the larger diameter. That was needed so the cartridge neck could expand; blocking neck expansion will raise pressures far more and more rapidly than the oversize bullet, which seems to have been no problem at all.

But this does not change the warning not to use "JS" ammo in an old rifle chambered for "J" ammo, only explains the actual reason for it.

Jim

[Cosmoline]

The 8mm Mauser was standard not just for the '98G and '98K, but for German machine guns as well. In theory it's what was perforating those GI's at the begining of "Saving Private Ryan." The cartridge is probably responsible for more battlefield deaths than any other single cartridge in the history of warfare. The allied cartridges in both wars (.303 Br., 8mm Lebel, .30'06, 7.62x54, etc.) were used only on certain parts of the various fronts and only at certain times.

The 7.56 NATO/.308 is a post-war creation with a surprisingly short life as NATO's primary military cartridge before being replaced by those little fellows. Yet far more people are familiar with it than with the more obscure 8mm Mauser. Go figure.

The 7.56 NATO gets the nod for flat trajectory and is a better sniper round, though.

[Shin-Tao]

(Rubbing temples from pun)

Any good sources for European 8mm out there?

[Snowdog]

Shin-Tao,

www.cheaperthandirt.com sells Sellier & Bellot 8mm in both FMJ and SP, both loaded to full potential. I would recommend this manufacturer since they are good quality non-corrosive rounds of recent manufacture.
The only factory round I've seen that equals or beats S&B made 8mm is Norma, and that's 3 or 4 times the price.

[radom]

I would have to rate the GI 7.62 loads in both US cases as "whimpy" compared to the German 8mm service load. The army had a major cow in WW-1 went it was learned on the battlefield that the 8mm German MGs where effective at a further range than the 30-06 and other MGs. I load and hunt with a 8mm and its flatter shooting then the M-2 ball ammo I shoot out of my GI guns. All in all I would say its on par with most factory hunting loads for the 06 on performance. I wish you could still find that German AP incendery aircraft MG ammo, it makes a 7.62 nato look like a .22lr when its hits a stump.

[brandon_h3]

I do not see where that is posted on the website. All I see is S&B that isn't standard 8mm ammo, and that is even out of stock.

[younggenious]

also check out www.jgsales.com and www.cdnninvestments.com for ammo. I usually find really good prices there, and is where I usually get my AK ammo.

[Dangus]

Isn't Turk ammo kinda worth it when you figure it only costs from 5-8 cents a round?

So what if it's a bit unreliable, and corrosive. I'll clean my gun after I shoot anyway, I always do, it's just good behavior for any gun owner, and I can always get a new round if the round I have in there fails to fire.

I doubt I'd bet my life on this stuff, but for plinking and even some hunting, why not?

[BuckeyePPC]

My daughter and I fired 60 rounds of Turk 8mm through a Yugo 24/47 yesterday. Only had 1 1935 round requiring a 2nd strike to fire. I usually get around 5 to 10% duds on the 1st strike. I replaced the original firing pin spring with a Wolfs 22 lb spring and the results were pretty impressive. All of the 1945, 55, and 56 Turks have fired on the first strike. The 1935s seem to have a slightly harder primer but I only had 1 restrike in 15 rounds so I'm happy.

The firing pin spring was pretty cheap and took just a few minutes to replace. Well worth the money and time. I replaced both my 24/47 and M48A firing pin springs.

[Shin-Tao]

Just bought 2 bandoliers of 8mm from cheaperthandirt.com!
Comes in stripper clips.

I'm going to end up getting another mauser. These rifles are just too awesome.

[Tamara]

Isn't Turk ammo kinda worth it when you figure it only costs from 5-8 cents a round?

So what if it's a bit unreliable, and corrosive. I'll clean my gun after I shoot anyway, I always do, it's just good behavior for any gun owner...

If you are cleaning your Mauser after firing Turkish corrosive ammo through it the same way you clean your other guns, the barrel will soon be rusted away to nothing.

Cleaning all my guns after shooting them is one thing. Brewing up a vat of hot, soapy water to pour repeatedly through the barrel to neutralize the acidic residues from corrosive priming compounds is just a little too much of a pain in the butt for me to consider it fun. ;)

[Goet]

You don't need to do hot water.

You can simply run an ammonia patch, ie. glass cleaner, through the barrel and over the bolt/face/etc. where primer gases may have gone. A quick swipe neutralizes the acids and takes about 10 seconds.

Then clean as normal.

Rinse, repeat.

[Snowdog]

I've noticed sometimes a mail order catalog advertises more merchandise than the same companies web-site. This appears to be the case with CTD as well.

Call them toll-free at: 1-888-625-3848

Ask if they still have Sellier and Bellot 196gr 8x57 FMJ ammunition for $6.95, item number: AMM-935

I've ordered atleast 20 or so boxes from them in the past 5 years, and they've never been back-ordered.

[Bruegger]

Shin-Tao – “Any good sources for European 8mm out there?” Sure. In addition to the sources above, try www.miwallcorp.com for S&B 8mm. About $8 per box. For milsurp, www.midwayusa is running an outrageous sale on unspecified 8mm that they “found in their warehouse.” Probably the Ecuadorian stuff with REALLY HARD primers.

I guess we all have different ideas of what’s fun -- “Brewing up a vat of hot, soapy water to pour repeatedly through the barrel to neutralize the acidic residues from corrosive priming compounds is just a little too much of a pain in the butt for me to consider it fun.”

I don’t think the hot water method is really that much more work. I put the kettle on to boil on the stove, remove the bolt, wash that in the sink, and put in the bore guide. Then I stick a length of surgical tubing with a funnel on one end into the bore guide. Put the rifle in the tub, muzzle down and pour the hot/boiling water down the bore. Then give it a few minutes for the residual heat from the boiling water to dry it and clean as usual. Certainly a lot less work than cleaning, say, the Ma Deuce or even the M240G.

I’ll have to try out the Windex method, though.

As for stats on the Turk ammo, you’ve got a 154 gr bullet at 3000-3100 fps. I noticed in the “Blue Press” that Dillon is selling the bandoliers for five bucks each. Stats on S&B loads are found at http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/rifle.htm The velocities are all given in meters per second, but all you have to do to convert m/s to fps is multiply m/s by 3.3. Compare a 180 gr .308 WIN FMJ at 2425 fps to a 196 gr 8mm FMJ at 2600 fps. The 8mm Mauser is 10% more bullet weight at 7.5% greater velocity, with 10% more frontal surface area. For further comparison, S&B also offers a .30-’06 180 gr FMJ at 2690 fps.

Semper fi,
Bruegger out.

[johnAK]

be careful!!!
those 8mm mauser European full spec S&B fired in Yugo M48's all steel butt-plate is cannon on your shoulder, :p

[trigger45]

Its a lot easier if you use a old coffee cup and fill it 3/4 full of water. put it in the microwave for 2 min 30 sec. then take it out and pour ammonia to fill the cup. put cup on floor. put cleaning swab on your cleaning rod. put cleaning rod in through the action til the swab is visible on the muzzle end. put the muzzle end in the coffee cup and leave it there while you pull the swab and solution up in to the barrel. do this for a min. then go make another cup and repeat. its worked for as long as i have had mine.

[Shin-Tao]

Great information here.

Any of you "sporterized" or modified your Mausers? Any pics?

[Bruegger]

"Any of you "sporterized" or modified your Mausers?"

Please, no. If you must sporterize, only do it to a really beat up rifle. The thought of someone chopping up a nice Mauser gives me the willies.

I've got four Mausers that I can recall (Swede, Yugo, Czech and Spanish), all of which are in their as-issued state except I've refinished them.

Well, I am planning on rebarreling the VZ24 in .308 (or maybe .30-06 if it'll work with the existing magazine) since the existing 8mm barrel is totally shot out, and I may drill and tap the new - commercial - barrel for an IER scope where the rear sight is on the existing barrel (the rifle will otherwise remain as-issued).

Semper fi,
Bruegger out.

[cmax2000]

The 8mm round has a hell of a punch..but so does .308......if it is full loaded ammo, i think its 8mm......

thanks chris :cool:

[444]

I have a K98 and a Yugo Mauser in 8mm Mauser (I also have a Columbian Mauser in .30-06 and a super nice Sweede 96). I have fired a lot of the turk milsurp ammo. I have over 2100 rounds of it right now unopened and several bandoleers lying around. I have never had a single misfire and haven't seen anyone I was shooting with have a misfire. Hopefully all the rest of it that I bought will be as good. The turk ammo has proven pretty damn accurate in my guns. We normally shoot at junk and rocks out past 500 yards in the desert but I have shot it on paper. At 25 yards it prints dead on in my Yugo and five shots went into one hole. At 100 yards it is about as accurate as I am with iron sights, maybe 3"-4" group.
I own 12 milsurp rifles and have fired corrosive ammo in all of them at one time or another. I have never cleaned any of them in hot water. One thing I have done is to spray Windex down the barrel after shooting because rumor has it that the ammonia will neutrilze the corrosive components in the ammo. I don't know. I have also, about half the time never done anything different than when I was shooting any other rifle and never had a problem. I am worried about it, so I check the bores for several days afterwards adn I don't see any corrosion, rust or anything else. Of course I live in the desert, so maybe this has something to do with it. I have often thought about the fact that these very rifles we are cleaning were used in combat with corrosive ammo and the bores still look OK. I would be surprised to find out that GIs in combat operations took anywhere near as good of care of these rifles as I do, yet they still look good.

[Infidel]

Compare a 180 gr .308 WIN FMJ at 2425 fps to a 196 gr 8mm FMJ at 2600 fps. The 8mm Mauser is 10% more bullet weight at 7.5% greater velocity, with 10% more frontal surface area. For further comparison, S&B also offers a .30-’06 180 gr FMJ at 2690 fps.

That's a very wimpy load for the .308. RemFedChester all say 2620 fps for 180 gr. bullets. The .30-06 load is more like it,-- American manufacturers say 2700 fps. Handloaders sometimes get a little better speeds, and Federal "High Energy" loads get .30-06 speeds in .308.

The only significant difference between the 8x57JS and the 7.62 NATO (or .308 Win) is that the 8mm gets the same speeds with bullets about 10% heavier. The difference between 8mm and .30-06 is vanishingly small. The .30 caliber bullets do have a slight edge in ballistic coefficient at the same weights.

The one big difference between the 8mm and the .30-06 government issue ammo is that the Germans used substantially heavier bullets, 196 gr. vs 147 gr., which gave them better performance at longer range.

[Snowdog]

I just realized my former preconception of ballistic coefficiencies for these two rounds were all skewed.

Using a boat tail for each:

Military 150gr ball 7.62x63 had a BC of .466

Military 196gr ball 7.92x57JS had a BC of .534

I could have sworn we had the edge in WW2 with our .30-06 fodder.

I also found:

Military 140gr ball 6.5x55 had a BC of .579 (I've always loved this round :D )

[Dangus]

Baking soda and water would do a lot of good too, and would be very cheap, and isn't toxic like amonia. Lye would work too, but it's pretty caustic.

[scottsw1]

I bought a case (1050) of Turkish ammo from Century arms for $65 delivered. I pulled 20 bullets because I had heard the rumor about poor quality control. I weighed each charge and found them to be very consistant. I haven't had a dud yet, but have read others saying they have had some. These bullets are corrosive, so after shooting I use a funnel and pour a hot water/ammonia mixture down the barrel. This procedure has worked on 3 mausers and I haven't encountered any rust yet.

[Shin-Tao]

Please don't missunderstand. I'd never defile a war relic needlessly. I'm thinking of getting an especially battered Mauser with a cracked stock and referishing it, putting on a synthetick stock. Any Mauser in good condition should be kept in original form!


Who has the best deals on Mausers now?

[MadScientist]

In the case of turk ammo I bought, ~5% have cracked necks and I can pull the bullets with my fingers. Seems like it might be dangerous if the bullet from a crack case got pushed into the case a bit. Even so, after carefully inspecting each clip for cracked cases, the rest shoots well in my Yugo M48A.

[Bruegger]

Here’s a nifty chart of a US loading vs. a European loading vs. a German military load.

Typical Ballistics
Rem. Norma DWM
Bullet 170 grains 196 grains 198 grains
Muzzle Velocity 2570 f.p.s. 2526 f.p.s. 2732 f.p.s.
100 yard Velocity 2300 f.p.s. 2195 f.p.s. 2415 f.p.s.
Muzzle Energy 2490 ft.lbs 2778 ft.lbs 3276 ft.lbs.
Drop @ 100 yards 0.8 inches 0.3 inches 0.3 inches

Infidel -
------------------------------
quote:
The one big difference between the 8mm and the .30-06 government issue ammo is that the Germans used substantially heavier bullets, 196 gr. vs 147 gr., which gave them better performance at longer range.
------------------------------

Agreed (except M2 ball is 150 gr - we're comparing WW II milsurp, right?) -- the advantage is most apparent with military loads, with the performance gap narrowing as the bullet weights increase, and probably disappearing entirely when you get to 240gr .30-06 loads. Given equal weight bullets and same basic shape, the .308 will have a better SD and presumably BC. And there’s a wider assortment of bullets for the .308 than in 8mm.

Comparing the WWII military loads head-to-head: the M-2 is roughly 2700-2800 fps at the muzzle, while the German 198 gr 8x57mm has a MV of about 2650-2700+. So with the 8x57 you’ve got 31% more bullet weight, and a much higher BC and SD, at almost the same velocity. That’s a huge advantage in penetration and power. The advantage, as you point out, is particularly apparent at longer ranges.

The other advantage the 8mm has over a .30 cal bullet is surface area, though, granted, the difference isn't huge – about 10%.

Shin-Tao – if you have a C&R, there’s lots of mail order places; you could order a barreled receiver or a receiver only. Here in Cali, we have a sporting goods chain called Big 5 that has pretty good prices when the Mausers are on sale (generally every week, one or another is on sale). The Czechs would make a good platform for a project rifle. The action on my VZ is beautiful.

Semper fi,
Bruegger out.

[Tamara]

Great information here.

Any of you "sporterized" or modified your Mausers? Any pics?

We ordered a Turkish Mauser for stock at the shop. When it came in, a quick check showed it didn't come anywhere close to headspacing.

We had, just lying around, a short, mildly tapered .30 cal Lilja barrel threaded for a KDF brake and a box of .300 Whisper ammo.

An idea began formin' in me 'ead. ;)

Just got back from another chat with my 'smith. Lugs have been lapped, bolt has been polished, stock from Boyds is on order, as is Timney trigger (Kepplinger unit was just too darn expensive). Still tracking down .300 Whisper reamer...

[Bruegger]

Tamara - be sure to post the results of your Turk project. I'd be particularly interested to hear what/how extensive the required mods are to the magazine box/follower and extractor to deal with the smaller case.

I might even reconsider my current .30-06/.308 plans for chambering the .30 cal barrel I have for my VZ action...

[brandon_h3]

I've tried the window cleaner method and it appears to work great. It's simple, and the el-cheapo window cleaner does the trick just as well as the expensive stuff, and is sold in bulk! I recommend it. Tamara, if you limit yourself to only non-corrosive ammo, then you are missing some great ammo like the Turk. That stuff is very powerful, and requires a whole 5 more min of cleaning. That I can handle!

[Casey]

If anyone is still looking for really good euro 8mm military ammo, FAC (Federal Arms Corporation) is selling 1974 Romanian for a very good price.

I ordered two of the 380 round boxes for $44.95, and after shipping it was only $64 for all 760 rounds (8.5 cents each?!). The ammo arives in a large wooden crate with wooden handles on each end. It is sealed with a metal band, two built in metal latches and fiberglass tape. Once you break into the wooden crate, you find two green metal "spam" cans, each holding small carboard boxes with ammo inside. I was lucky enough to get a can opener with my crate; I have known those who haven't been as lucky.

I opened the first can just today, they are very good looking rounds. They are the "LPS" rounds, which I think are 147gr steel core, with laquered steel cases. I have only shot a few of the 1974 version, but they shoot very strongly and accurately. All of the research I have done is that these are probably among the best of the euro 8mm rounds, and generally considered better than most all of the Turkish ammo.

The FAC phone number to order this ammo is (763)780-8780, and the part number to tell them is AM8mm, 760 rounds.

I am shooting this in a Yugo 24/47, and a friend tried it in his 98, so I think it works in a variety of different guns.

Casey

[Shin-Tao]

Where can I get a good sytnhetic stock that will fit a Turk Mauser?
I founf a candidate for revival and transformation. (stock spit up to the grip)

[cracked butt]

I've fired somewhere between 500 and 700 rounds of turk ammo this last year. Never had a misfire and only one split neck. The rumors about the ammo misfiring is probably due to the rifle itself.
The ammo is reasonably accurate in all of my rifles and is extremely loud when shot from a rifle with a shorter barrel. Clean up the guns while the barrels are still hot with a couple of squirts of windex as solvent and you shouldn't have any rusting problems.

[Gewehrmutter]

Casey- Thanks for the info. One question: What is the velocity of this stuff?

Thanks,
Gewehrmutter

[Casey]

I don't know the velocity as I don't have a chrono. However, those that I know who shoot 8mm regularly say that it is typical of military surplus 8mm: pretty hot, especially when compared to US commercial 8mm.

I believe that this is the link to the specials page where I found all info to order:

http://www.gunsnstuff.net/html/specials.html

The concencus on the parallax curios and relics board was that this was pretty good stuff.

Here are a couple of threads showing what those who shot it thought of it.

http://pub42.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm9.showMessage?topicID=1110.topic

http://pub42.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm61.showMessage?topicID=122.topic

Casey

[glock glockler]

I've read that there was special Luftwaffe ammunition that was higher pressure than normal 8mm and was used in MG42s for air defense, does any one know how hot it was and if it would be safe to fire in a 98k?

Thanks

[brandon_h3]

Yes I have heard about that stuff, but I have also heard it is NOT safe to shoot in any rifle. The pressures are too high and will damage it.

[k77/22rp]

Velocities for the turk surplus are about 3000fps with a 155 grain bullet, last weekend i did some experimenting with turk ammo and steel plate the steel was 1" thick and it was penetrated 3/4" from 100yds and there was a bump and a crack on the back of the plate. I was amazed, the gun (M-38) was pretty loud but didnt kick all that bad on a count of it weighing 9.2 pounds.
I shot a bandolier and had 2 misfires, So I ordered a case from century.
Overall the value is great and its almost as cheap to shoot as a .22.

[k77/22rp]

Oh, heres a picture my turk M-38 and Mosin nagant M-44.

[dfaugh]

Agreed on not chopping up a really nice Mil rifle..But there's a zillion pretty crappy ones out there...I've got one (Vz-24) thats in rough shape, but the action is actually very good (except crest ground off)....I scammed a brand new 30-06 barrel for $40 on ebay....need to find a deal on a trigger...For the guy looking for a synthetic stick...TAPCO has a really cool (I think)looking model(sorta "tactical"), that's probably gonna go on that project....cheap too!

[Gewehrmutter]

I would have to rate the GI 7.62 loads in both US cases as "whimpy" compared to the German 8mm service load.

I have to agree. With the right load (easy and cheap to get) the 8mm beats the living p*ss out of the .308 :p