Springfield M1A or M14?

[Monkeyleg]

For some reason I just started getting a hankering for an M1A or an M14. From the prices I'm seeing on the Springfields, it could be a year before I ever could buy one. Which would be the better choice for target shooting? Are semi-auto M14's available? Guess I really never paid attention before.

[Bob Locke]

M1A is, for all intents and purposes, the semi-auto variant of the M14.

I thought you were talking about ponying up the $200 transfer fee AND the cost of an M14 to boot!

[Keith J]

M14's are not available. The ones made overseas can be problamatic so watch out.

[zouave]

Apple or Orange?

M1A is a semi-auto variant of the M14.

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks for the replies. I thought the early versions of the M14 were semi only. Like I said, I never paid much attention. While the Springfield M1A's look top-notch, that's a lot of $$$ to spend.

[Steve Smith]

A company or two have purchased cut up M14's and rewelded them, withall kinds of high speed ninja-s**t operations, heat treatment, and measureing, saying that you can have a real honest to goodness M14 (semi-auto of course) by buying through them. Several have purchased them and they ran great, but the ATF caught wind of it, and the companys were tied up with legal matters for months...I don't know the latest details.

What others (like Fulton Armory) call an M14, is not an M14. They are mostly using Springfield receivers. They have made some of their own receivers, but they're REALLY pricey and quite rare. M1A is a product name of Springfield Armory, and the M14 is a government rifle. Perhaps Fulton Armory should call theirs an F-14? Fulton's rifles are great. Springfield's CAN be great, but can be bad as well. Both have a lifetime warrantee. There is a better chance of using the one from Springfield, as they make a lot more rifles.

[GunFool]

Yup. The M1A is the M14 in semi-auto. And stick with an actual Springfield. This is a great rifle and I'd have one myself if it wasn't for the $1200+ price tag and the fact that my long-gun safe is already full! ;)

[James K]

Hi, guys,

Just to resolve possible confusion. The M14 rifle (selective fire) was made by Springfield Armory, the now-closed government facility in Massachusetts, and also by Winchester, TRW and H&R. The M1A (trademark) is made by a private company, Springfield Armory, Inc. in Geneseo, Illinois.

There have been several U.S. and foreign copies of the M14 made for semi-auto only. As Steve says, some companies have bought cut up military receivers and welded the pieces back together without the selective fire parts. The legality of these has been questioned, but I know of no actual convictions for either manufacture or possession.

I would (and have) gone the M1A route.

Jim

[MP Freeman]

M14 is full auto, and kicks too much. I don't like the M14 in full auto. I've shot one and when I was standing, I couldn't get off more than five rounds before I had to stop and pull the gun down. Besides that, only the first round hit the target. However, the things really rocks when fired from the hip. You can dump the full 20 rounds without stoppings. But alas, accuracy is poor.

[Dave P]

Monkeyleg, if you don't have a high powered rifle already, you might consider starting with a FAL. Not as much class as a M1A, but same round, semi-auto, fun-to-shoot. And kit guns can be had for $600 or less.

I have both now, and plan on keeping them. Both of them are good for dealing with idiots like Osama bin [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]!

[ATTICUS]

"M14 is full auto, and kicks too much. I don't like the M14 in full auto. I've shot one and when I was standing, I couldn't get off more than five rounds before I had to stop and pull the gun down. Besides that, only the first round hit the target. However, the things really rocks when fired from the hip. You can dump the full 20 rounds without stoppings. But alas, accuracy is poor."

Could "simple" modifications be made to the M14 that would make it more effective as a combat weapon?

Such as: Selective three round bursts ala M16/M4.

A short Heavy barrel with a muzzle break- It's heavy
already, why not another 0.5 lb, or perhaps a built in
bipod for added weight and versatility?

Forward mounted pistol grip- or a hybrid pistol
grip/bipod that folds into the forarm.

[Kaylee]

ATTICUS --

Already been done in the M14E2.

Forward pistol grip, bipod, I think an extra recoil brake. Still semi/full not semi/burst though.

Although I've heard of a couple times where they saved a unit's bacon 'cause the oppising force thought 3 FA .308s meant 3 M60s meant a hellaciously larger force, I don't think they worked well enough for the Army to hold on to 'em.

But then again, the Army gets to back themselves up with morters, real MGs, and artillery.

-K

[ATTICUS]

Thanks Kaylee, I didn't know that. I wonder if those stocks can still be found- might be fun to fool around with.

[Kaylee]

Fred's has a couple, I think.
http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/stocks.asp
(toward the bottom, look for "Birch M14E2" -- spendy!)

There's a rear pistol grip cut out of the wood stock. The foregrip is a kind of "fold-down" arrangement that is supported by a sling. Really, truly, odd-looking.

Example:
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/orig/m14e2.htm


Finally, remember your evil features count. If you put an E2 stock on a Springfield, you'll need to remove the flash suppressor to stay legal.

honestly, I suspect a modern Choate-type version would work better for what you have in mind, but i've no idea if those are made.

-K

[Steve Smith]

Atticus, the stocks maybe purchsed. The synthetic ones run about $250 (?) and the wod ones (birch, think) start at $350 or so...I saw a beautiful woden one at a gun show this past weekend for $425.

Too rich for my blood.

[ATTICUS]

I've got a scout model (muzzle break) so I would be OK there...I think...unless it would have to be pinned/welded on. That $425 for a stock would be a bit of a problem right now, but I appreciate the info.

That is a strange looking contraption shown in the securityarms pic. I'm curious as to how that forward grip is attached. If it could be moved further forward AND be designed to do double duty as a bipod - that would be interesting.

[Steve Smith]

wood, not wod.

[Kaylee]

Disclamer -- I've only handled an M14E2 once, and that one was minus the foregrip and sling.

BUT, from the manuals I have, the foregrip is hinged to the forestock, and fastened somehow to the sling at the base of the foregrip. You pull down and back with the foregrip, which gives you downward sling pressure on the stock. Not unlike using a shooting sling, I gather, but from a different position.

Like I said, wierd. No idea how it worked in real live use... anyone else on here actually used the thing in the field?

-K

PS --
threaded barrel == evil feature
pistol grip stock == evil feature

Unless the rifle is pre-ban, I'm GUESSING you would need to pin the brake on.

[ATTICUS]

I was talking to a guy a few weeks ago that was one of the original participants at Knob Creek, and a machine gunner from way back. He said that the M14 in full auto was fairly managable while shooting from a prone position and using the bipod.

That conversation got me thinking about other mods to make it more user friendly. A forward PG seemed like a good idea.

Personally, I don't find the recoil that bad with the scout. I would think that tri-bursts would'nt be that bad, if feasible.

[Gewehr98]

But there ARE semi-auto M14's out there.

I have one, the receiver is made here in the USA by a company in Baltimore, Maryland called Armscorp. My receiver states "M14NM", plain as daylight.

No, it doesn't have a Springfield, Inc receiver, nor is it a reweld, or Chinese.

People tend to forget, in their haste, that M1A is nothing more than Springfield, Inc's registered trademark for their semi-auto copy of the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62mm, M14. As such, anybody else who builds a semi-auto M14 clone runs the risk of copyright infringement if they name their creation an M1A.

I'm assuming it's the same logic that causes people to call office copy machines Xeroxes, even if they were made by IBM, Panasonic, etc.

Regardless, it does a disservice to folks like Smith Enterprises, Armscorp, and Enterprise Arms, who do indeed build semi-auto M14 receivers... :(

[ATTICUS]

Isn't that sorta like calling an AR15 an M16 (or more precisely an M16NM)? A rose, is a rose, but wouldn't the original designation indicate that the weapon is select fire? Or is that just applicable to the AR15/M16 variants?

[Kaylee]

Technically, yes, it's exactly like calling an M16 an AR-15. Even the semi-only (at least the later, production ones, don't know about prototypes) M14s had auto-parts, they were just locked into position. CO's had the "keys" more or less, I believe.

But really, what else ya gonna call 'em? Springfield's copyrighted M1A. M-14/S is a mouthful.. I usually just say "M14" or "M14 clone" and explain if I have to from there.

Oh, one last aside.. the USGI stock, made as it is for the reciever with a connecting rod attatched, is inletted too big. This can let your op rod retaining pin drift lose with firing. This can result in your oprod guide rod banging your mag. Much bad juju.. if buying surplus stock, is good to be filling in, as recommended in earlier threads.

-K

[Monkeyleg]

Kaylee, thanks for the clarification. I remember, if somewhat hazily, a Tales of the Gun or some such series that indicated that the early M14's were semi-auto only. Maybe they were prototypes, maybe they were bastard children. But I do remember having heard of them.

Something tells me that buying a SA M1A would be a lot cheaper. But I can't get past the plastic barrel shroud on a rifle that costs $1200 to $1800.

[James K]

Hi, guys,

Gewehr98, true, but I think when most people use the term "M14" without qualification they mean the selective fire rifle made by/for the U.S. government. Springfield Armory, Inc. adopted the term "M1A" to avoid problems since they were also using the name of one of the makers of the original M14 and there could have been legal problems if the marking (in spite of the circle R) was duplicated.

Kaylee, the M14 was issued with a selector lock in place to restrict it to semi-auto fire. This does not, by the way, make such a rifle a semi-auto for legal purposes; it is still a selective fire weapon or machinegun under the law. The selector switch and spring were in a little bag attached to the rifle and could be installed by a company armorer at the direction of the commanding officer. It requires a couple of punches and a few minutes to install the selector and spring. (Most commanders did not allow the change unless the rifle was equipped for use in the squad automatic role.)

Jim

[Inspector Callahan]

you might consider starting with a FAL. Not as much class as a M1A, but same round, semi-auto, fun-to-shoot. And kit guns can be had for $600 or less.

Where are you finding such kits?

[Jaeger]

I just bought a pre ban M1A service grade rifle in near new condition with 4 mags for $810. I was in the right place at the right time. If you keep your eyes open you can find affordable M1As.

I'm going to shoot it for the first time tomarrow. I'm giddy as a school girl! My FAL is very jealous!

[Ledbetter]

It's true. I bought my "Loaded" for about $200 less than the lowest retail I saw for it. The guy had bought it, cleaned it and greased it, and then wrecked his car.

I was the first guy who responded to his ad on (now-defunct) Battlerifles.com and offered him his asking price. He lived in my state, and he included the Scott Duff book, a couple of tools, the coupon for $150 in accessories and (get this) an A.R.M.S. scope mount.

So keep your eyes open and your web connection on. These rifles are a delight.

Regards.

[Jaeger]

My FAL will now need a coating of cosmoline so it doesn't rust from disuse!

This M1A allowed me to make consistant hits on the head sized 300 yd gong using surplus Argentine ball ammo. It is an absolute joy to shoot!

I like my FAL but the superior sight and trigger on the M1A make for a superior rifle. I don't know how I did without one for so long.

[Dave P]

Callahan - I get a small catalog every few months from somebody like AIM Surplus (I think). I can't find the catalog now, sorry.


Monkeyleg, if it makes you feel better about the price, my M1A came with a fiberglass handguard. Aren't they all that way?

[A.Rex]

Don't know if anybody else has heard of these but I was reading awhile ago on another site (jouster's I think) of an M14 modified with an M60 gas system, they said reduced the recoil so much it was like an M16. What a swell MBR.

[mushoot]

I have a Century arms franken fal I bought for 500. It goes bang every time and is fun to shoot. I also have a fulton armory polytech M14S on the Chinese reciever that is neat. It cost a lot more, I'd go with the FAL. John