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David Ramsey
August 25, 2001, 02:10 PM
I'm going to buy a .45. Leaning toward a Kimber Classic, but can't discount a P220. I have a P226 and I like it a lot, but the 1911 has me fascinated. I'd like some opinions as to which one to get.

CZ_
August 25, 2001, 02:17 PM
The Sig is a fine pistol, but a 1911 is even nicer. Make it a Springfield or Kimber, or if you have lots of money to spend get a Wilson Combat!

Derek Zeanah
August 25, 2001, 02:28 PM
They're different -- the 220 was the first .45 I ever shot, but I prefer the 1911's.

220 is DA/SA, 1911 is SA only. 1911 has manual safety and grip safety, 220 has decocker. 1911 has (or certainly can have) a better trigger. 1911 (especially Officer's ACP or comparable) will conceal better.

Try 'em both and see. Or buy 'em both used and resell the one you like least. (yeah, like you'd willingly part with either. ;) )

Napoleon Solo
August 25, 2001, 03:17 PM
Honestly David, it doesn't matter. You are going to agonize over this decision -- sweat blood over it. You are going to get advice and weigh all the pros and cons and in the final evaluation, one of these guns is going to come home with you. And you are going to love shooting it. And you will never regret the decision to get it. But after every range session, while you are sitting in the garage cleaning it, you are going to lust more and more for the gun you didn't buy. And a few months down the road, you are going to purchase the other gun. You will never regret that purchase. You will blissfully enjoy the best of both worlds. So, the question isn't, which should I buy, a Kimber or a Sig 220. The question is...


Which must I have NOW and which can I wait for a little longer.;)

I kid you not.

milcaztra
August 25, 2001, 03:30 PM
I like my 1911s. The Sig 220 is a work of art, but the 1911s have always felt better in my hand. I also like the single action design of the 1911 over the double action P220.

Still, they're both great .45s. My only advice on your choice is that you should find a range that rents both, and run a box or two through each handgun. Do you like the single action or double action? Recoil characteristics? How do they feel in your hand? Natural pointability? Can you should one better than the other? If there is a possibility of concealed carry, which is more comfortable, and do you feel safe carrying cocked-and-locked? Are you familiar with the 1911 at all?

The fact that you already have a P226 and that you really like it would suggest that you should get a P220 for a uniform manual of arms. Between the 226 and 220, you have the same trigger pull, decocker, slide stop placement, etc. The 1911 would be good for variation, but the P220 might be more practical since you already have a P226.

You have two good choices and can't go wrong with either. Maybe buy one now, and budget to buy the other next year ..........

Kermit
August 25, 2001, 05:13 PM
Given a choice...get the 1911. More accessories available, more gunsmiths if you want custom work done and besides, if you want a 45, you gotta have at least one 1911. :)

Marko Kloos
August 25, 2001, 05:29 PM
The SIG P220 is a great pistol, but I'd get the 1911. You already have a SIG, and everybody needs at least one 1911 in their collection. If you're only getting one .45, might as well make it a classic.

lonegunman
August 25, 2001, 09:33 PM
I agree with lendsringer... you already have a Sig, and getting another one would be, well, kind of boring. I mean, other than a difference in caliber, nothing else is different. Nothing new to play with.

Plus, dont forget that all real men own at least on 1911.

John Marshall
August 25, 2001, 10:49 PM
Oh boy. I hope my brother doesn't see lonegunman's last remark.

He recently (OK about 10 months ago) bought a P220 and loves it (it's actually his duty pistol), but he does get a sort of wistful longing look on his face when he fondles one of my 1911s.

Me? I've never fired a P220 so don't know what I might be missing.

RikWriter
August 25, 2001, 10:49 PM
I would go with the Kimber. I have owned a SIG 220 and while it is a nice gun, I always thought it was way too big for a 7-round-mag alloy frame gun. Seems to me they could have worked on the grip a bit and made it hold as many as 9 rounds.

Ala Dan
August 25, 2001, 11:41 PM
'Nough said,

while both, the 1911 and Sig P220 are fine
weapons they tend to serve very different
and distinctive purpose's. For my use,
which is now limited to CCW; I prefer the
double action first shot of the Sig P220A.
After all, all follow-up shot's are fired
single action anyway.:)

Both can be lightning fast, in the hands
of a properly trained shooter.:D It's just
a matter of choice; buy one now and the
other at Christmas!!!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

tlhelmer
August 26, 2001, 07:59 AM
I am going with the Sig P-220 over the 1911 primarily becasue of reliability and action type.

PreserveFreedom
August 26, 2001, 08:16 AM
1911. Parts availability alone makes it the obvious choice.

gryphon
August 26, 2001, 09:33 AM
1911

GUNNUTS
August 26, 2001, 10:06 AM
HEY DAVID:GUNNUTS HERE,If you don't any 1911's DO NOT! buy one,there like potatochips!You can't stop at one,2 years ago I bought one,now have 6!!and have money down on #7!I'm picking it up SEPT.29,try www.1911forum.com

jar
August 26, 2001, 10:35 AM
The SIG 220 is probably the more accurate and reliable out of the box. The 1911 is much easier to customize and create YOUR gun.

But I think you should rephrase your question to be "Which should I get first?";)

Wild Romanian
August 26, 2001, 10:57 AM
I would strongly recommend a series 70 or earlier Colt. They are made from steel forgings and have no cheap cast iron parts, no cheap alumimum frames , no powdered metal parts (the Kimber has powdered metal parts).

I just finished reading the book "Ghost Soldiers" by Hampton sides, the true story of the rescue of 500 POW's from the Japanese. In the book one of the Rangers actually had his all steel colt .45 shot out of his hand by a sniper. He picked the gun back up and then used it to shoot the lock off the camp gate.

My point is this. If he had been using an inferior aluminum or plastic frame gun the gun would have been shot to pieces and been rendered inoperateable. ONE more reason to buy an quality gun to begin with.

I have a Sig p220. Believe me it is a vastly inferior weapon to the 1911. W.R.

David Ramsey
August 26, 2001, 11:00 AM
Just got back from the range. Traded my G19 for a G22 and I love the .40. I've decided on the 1911 and based on the Gun Tests review I think I'm going Springfield Loaded. The Sig's nice, but something different will be oh so fun.

cobraman
August 26, 2001, 11:37 AM
Ah a Springfield Loaded model. Everyone needs a 1911. History and great design. I love my Sig 228, I carried it for awhile. Then I bought a CZ 75 PCR, I carried it for awhile.
Then I bought an SA 1911. Once broken in(1000 rounds) Its is now flawless and I carry it all the time. Why, because I shoot it better than any other gun I own.
I think Springfields are a great bang for the buck.

Mike P. Wagner
August 26, 2001, 12:13 PM
I don't know if you can get ahold of it, but you might want to read and article by Teddy Jacobson called "Why You Don't Need a 1911". The major point of the article is that a 1911 can be made accurate and reliable, but many of the newer designs, he mentions Glocks, Beretta's and SIGs of various stripes, start reliable. After a long discussion of the kind of work he does on 1911s, he says:

Can a 1911 be made totally reliable? Yes, but not that easy. Is it worth all the headaches for the average person to get a 1911 flawless in operation? It won't be cheap, but only you can decide that.

I don't know where you can get a copy (he mailed me one when I had him do a trigger job on a CZ-52). He sounds like he got started in pistolsmithing trying to make a duty weapon reliable. In this article, he claims that if he were going to a social occasion that he knew would decide his destiny, he would take a H&K P7.

Mike P. Wagner

blades67
August 26, 2001, 03:55 PM
I used to own a few 1911's, but I sold them all after getting my first SIG Sauer pistol. I may get another 1911 in the future, but only as a range gun.

Wild Romanian
August 26, 2001, 06:07 PM
Can a 1911 be made totally reliable? Yes, but not that easy. Is it worth all the headaches for the average person to get a 1911 flawless in operation? It won't be cheap, but only you can decide that

Boy I have read some ridiculouse statements in my life but that really takes the cake. I have shot Colt 1911's all my life and I have never had a problem with reliability. I think 100 years of 1911 production and along with them being used in every major and minor conflict the U.S. has gotten itself into proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I have even shot G.I. 1911's that would even feed quite a few different hollow point designs even though they were orginally designed for ball ammo and the newer 1911's are all throated that come from the factory.

I think the problem comes from the shoddily manufactured clones of the 1911. Buy a quality gun that is true to the original design and it will go on working practically forever. I have not found that to be true with the new high tech .45's I have owned and still own.W.R.

Wild Romanian
August 26, 2001, 06:37 PM
I think one thing that should be mentioned about the P220 is the design of the main spring and its strut. It is located under the plastic grips and hangs naked without any protection whatsoever. Drop this gun on its grips and when they break the strut will then be either bent or broken putting the gun out of order immediately.

Contrast this to the steel mainspring housing on a quality 1911. The mainspring is located inside the steel housing and will survive the nastiest of falls.

The P220's sheet metal roll pins are not as sturdy or as durable as the solid steel pins of the 1911. In industry I have seen sheet metal roll pins rust completely through in a matter of days when exposed to extreme conditions of corrosion. Sheet metal roll pins break far more often than sold steel pins. As a matter of fact Sig had to use a double sheet metal roll pin through the breach block of the pistol. What does that tell you?

The P220 is not strippable to the bare frame in the field as the 1911 is.

The P220 is made up largely of stamped sheet metal parts. The original 1911's are made of forged steel parts.

The P220 is top heavy because of its aluminum frame and kicks twice as hard as the 1911 making it way less controllable in rapid fire.

The P220 user must fight two different trigger pulls under stress . Contrast this to the same single action pull shot after shot of the 1911. First round hit probability is astronomically higher.

The P220's aluminum frame because of its very composition can never outlast the all steel frame of th 1911 or take the abuse the steel 1911 can.

The P220's dual controls are way to close together making it a high probability that some people under stress (Like myself) often hit the wrong lever at the wrong time.

The P220's cross hatch pattern magazine construction have bin known to come apart. Constrast this to the solid welded seem of an original 1911 magazine.

The only good thing I can say about the P220 is that the one I own even though it has not been as reliable as my 1911's is that it does have a good trigger pull and is an accurate handgun.

The Sig Sauer series of handguns were designed from their inseption to be made quicker and cheaper than their competitors, not better. They in no way can be placed in the same class as a quality built 1911. W.R.

W.R.

Steve in PA
August 26, 2001, 07:48 PM
Everyone knows that a 1911 typically needs alot of work to remain accurate......bushings, links......etc. , thats why you see a ton of aftermarket parts for them. They are a good pistol, I do like them and have shot quite a few of them. If I had my druthers I'd be adding one, probably a 1991A1 to my line up.

Incidently I took my P220 to the range this weekend and it shoots great. It is extremely accurate, handles very nice. I will say that I don't like the slide lock on the Sigs, just something a shooter will have to get used to just as every pistol has something that needs to get used to.

WESHOOT2
August 26, 2001, 07:52 PM
I don't like SIG's, but I respect them.

Don't really like 1911's but I shoot mine too well. Friggin thing just flat out POINTS for me.

(secret = I'm really a revolver man)

Greg Bell
August 26, 2001, 09:48 PM
Glocks: :barf:

Greg Bell
August 26, 2001, 09:50 PM
Gents,

Everybody loves old slabsides, but the SIG is probably going to be a better combat gun. I'll bet real $$$ that you are much more likely to have to "correct" problems with a 1911 than with a 220. The beauty of the SIGs are that they are "bet your ass" guns. You can trust that a SIG, fresh out of the plastic box, is going to work. 1911s, generally, have no where near this level of trustworthiness. And I'm not just talking about Chuck Daley garbage, I'm talking about high $$$ Colts and Springfields. OTOH, I have never owned or even shot a Baer or Wilson so I can't speak for them--but at $1400 and up they better be pretty good. Also, the single-action vs. double action argument is strictly a matter of taste--and possibly religion. Other considerations such as feeding reliability, parts breakage and accuracy also, generally, favor the SIG. The only real drawback to the SIG design is the 90 or so FPS your going to loose with its shorter barrel vs. a govt model.

GHB

GLOCK: :barf:

lonegunman
August 26, 2001, 10:19 PM
1911 versus Sig "out of the box" reliablity is a statistical argument and nothing more.

If I get a bad 1911 or Sig, I am either going to get it fixed or get rid of it.

Lets just say that 5% of 1911s are unreliable and only 1% of Sigs are. So what? My 1911 isnt going to be one of the 5%, and my Sig isnt going to be in the 1%.

If you have a 100% reliable 1911, it doesnt matter if all the others in the world are a POS, yours is still 100%.

You also have to remember that 1911s are made by numerous manufacturers, with varying degrees of quality control. Even Colt has had quality issues due to their financial instablity. I bet if you compared Springfield and Kimbers to Sigs, the reliability is going to be about the same.

The main reason I am not a big Sig fan is because of the DA/SA mechanism. Why anyone would choose to limit themselves with that action type is beyond me, but to each his own, I suppose.

Glock_Racer
August 26, 2001, 10:46 PM
get the Kimber

Greg Bell
August 28, 2001, 08:10 PM
Lonegunman,

Your "statistical" argument is not very convincing. The problem with it is that works equally well for Lorcins: "So what if only 1 in 270 Lorcins is reliable, if you happen to have a good one?" The problem is, there is a massive difference between a 1 in 20 chance of having a defect and 1 in 100. Further, I would bet that the real numbers are a lot further apart. I would bet that less than 1 in 100 SIGs have a problem out of the box. I would also bet that closer to 1 in 10 1911s do (especially if you include Charles Daleys and the other dogs). And these are all "out of the box" problems--excluding all the troubles that the guns have on the second day forward. I'm sorry, but if you want a really excellent 1911 it is going to cost you quite a bit more than a SIG 220.

If you don't like da/sa then you don't like it. Personally, I like them both. I like Da/sa, SA, DAO and P7 "squeeze cockers." I absolutely can't stand "safe action" type pistols (Glock, Sigma...). Everybody has their own thing.

lonegunman
August 28, 2001, 08:27 PM
Yes, my argument works equally well for any pistol, including Lorcins.

So?

a 100% reliable Lorcin (assuming such an oddity exists) is still 100% reliable , right?

And if your "1 in 10" statistic is correct, I must be very lucky because I have owned no less than 5 1911 (Colts, Kimbers, Springfields) that have been 100% reliable.

I think 1911s often get a bad rep. Most of that though is based on either old, worn out guns, or those made by a cheap manufacturer.

If Charles Daly built Sig style autos, do you still think they would be as reliable as the real thing?

MK11
August 29, 2001, 12:07 PM
I have two Kimbers and a Sig P220. I like the Kimbers better. But I trust the Sig more. The Kimbers occasionally jam. The Sig does not.

Greg Bell
August 29, 2001, 06:33 PM
Lonegunman,

My point is that you are much more likely to get a flawed weapon if you buy a 1911. He was asking which of the two to buy. I consider reliability to be the most important characteristic a gun can have. Sigs have it in spades, 1911s simply do not. I've never understood how someone could pay $600+ for a 1911 knowing that he was going to have to send it to the gunplumber to get it to work right.You say you have never had any trouble out of your five 1911s. I believe you---but I think anyone who is honest will say that you are one extremely lucky guy. You say that even if your gun has a problem you'll fix it--thats great---if you get a chance to fix it. I prefer to buy a gun that I know was done right from the begining. I'm not going to bet my life on 1 in 20.





Glocks:barf:

Bedeviler
August 30, 2001, 04:31 AM
Sigs makes one of the if not, the best pistols IMHO no rebuttles here!!! Nothing like it out of the box and this is why there is limited mods you can do to it cause it is not needed! If you want an accurate reliable quality gun, get the SiG. If you want an oridnary gun that you can modify in many ways and add on some custom stuff, get the 1911. Buying a Sig is like buying a nice fast reliable quality car like a Porsche or BMW. Or you can get the other stuff which would be like a Toyota or Ford where there are so much stuff you can do to it make it fancy and fast but will not be the same as the German cars mentioned, lol!:D

Richard
August 30, 2001, 02:17 PM
I have owned and shot a whole bunch of 45acp pistols. My opinion? If you have never shot and became accustomed to a 1911A1 you will be more than happy with a Sig P220, Glock 21 or 30, Ruger P90 or P97, or a S&W. Once you become familiar with a 1911A1 there is nothing better. The better 1911A1s require very little or no smithing to function well. 1911A1 owners tend to become perfectionists/individualists and this leads our desire for improvements. Regards, Richard

pbash
August 30, 2001, 05:36 PM
I owned both a Kimber Custom Classic and a Sig P220 for several years. Recently I sold the 220 because it was never being used. The Sig is a very nicely built pistol but it is too large for comfortable concealed carry, has no better ergonomics than the 1911 and is DA/SA. In the end, though, I just found I was much more accurate with the 1911 than with any of the other pistols (Sig, Glock) I own. Yes, the full-size Kimber is a bit heavy and large, but its thinner which makes concealment easier and in the commander-size versions with the aluminum frames it just kicks the Sig all over the room.

David Ramsey
August 30, 2001, 07:40 PM
Bought the Kimber Target Stainless. Beautiful gun.

Walt Sherrill
August 30, 2001, 07:46 PM
I've had a nicely tuned P-220 and still have a custom 1911.

If you can find a reliable 1911, not that hard really, the triggers are so much better than anything else, its hard to go with a DA SIG.

But the SIGs are durable and reliable. I prefer the 1911, and could never really master the SIG DA to SA transition. Try them both and then decide.

KShaft
August 31, 2001, 04:33 AM
screw it and get a usp!

triggers on new usps are pretty good, and you can go c&c or da/sa.
the da/sa transition is not so noticalbe on a usp when you decock (as opposed to dry firing it) it as it leaves it in a quarter cocked postion.

hella reliable and durable too!

but if youre determined to get a sig or 1911,
1911 all the way!
ergoniomics and trigger pull cant be beat!
k.s.

Rainbow Six
August 31, 2001, 05:03 AM
For carry or SD/HD I'd have to go with the P220 given the choices here. :)

R6

JMack
August 31, 2001, 08:11 AM
MHO is the Sig is the best damn pistol on the market as to what you get for the money, plain and simple.

They are damn near 100% reliable out of teh box, they will eat any ammo you gfeed it without fail. They are more accurate than the average shooter (more so for the P220) and there is little more that you will ever need to do to it rather than maybe buy some night sites and some fancy grips.

To me the 1911 is way over priced, they are not known to be very reliable at all without tweaking. And after paying hundreds of dollars more than the Sig I think you take home less of a gun than that of the sig.

Anyone that will argue with the above I would think to be is some what of denial. If you buy a 1911 and tweak it out and do all kind of mods to it it will prove to be a superb gun for sure, but will still not do much more than that much cheaper Sig could do right out of the box.

Also, when I buy a gun I am always makeing the purchase of a deffensive gun. When I think of the 1911 I do not think of it this way. I want something that is not ammo picky, very reliable, in short something you can bet your life on that its going to work. And no matter how much money you put in or how expensive that 1911 of your is not ever going to have the same reputation as being very reliable as that of the Sig.

The P220 is a masterpeice and you do not have to go ask on a Sig web site to find that one out. To me its the best .45 out of the box that money can buy.

Jason

Richard
August 31, 2001, 08:26 AM
JMack, my 1911A1 pistols are more reliable than my Sig P220. All of my 1911A1s except my Springfield 1911A1 (loaded) have had some tweaking. The 1911A1s I own will feed any type of factory or reloaded cartridge I have tried. My sig P220 will not feed 200gr jacketed swc bullets. Your comments are welcome. Regards, Richard

ebachman
August 31, 2001, 10:22 AM
Sold the Sig, bought a Kimber Pro CDP.
IMHO the Sig was easier to control for a gun that has hard to get a "high grip" on (tended to over ride the silde release). Recoil seemed smoother than my various 1911s but I can place more accurate doubles with the 1911.
Sigs are built like fine Swiss watches though and I'm sure I'll add another ASA I can find another one in full nickel finish...e

JMack
August 31, 2001, 01:49 PM
Richard,

Thanks for disagreeing with me without shooting me with your best flame thrower:)

Seriously though, in the circle of guys I shoot with and many of whom are very into their 1911s and anything to do with 1911s. It seems that no matter what they do to them, what they add, who they send it to to have work done. They never seem to be as reliable as not just a P220 but any of the classic P series Sig pistols. For every one jam that I may get from time to time it seems they would get 4 or 5. Now I know that 1911s are great pistols and they are fun to tweak out and they do some really nice hole punching on paper. Who could argue with that right?

I just think that atleast for a deffensive pistol that a Sig would be much more fitting. There is less that needs to be done with them and in general you can rely on them right out of the box. You get allot for your money as far as I am concerned and I take a certain comfort in that.

I have had the chance to fire quite a few 1911s and have to say that the ones I have tried have been very nice shooters to say the least. If I ever have the money to blow on a gun that might just be a tricked out paper puncher in my hands I will surely think of buying one without a doubt.

I think this thread should not really focus on which gun is better because frankly we will never really know will we? Everyone has their,,,well,,,,you know. Anyway, they are two very different breeds and that is surely an under statement. The first think anyone pondering between these two guns should seriously think.

1. What role is it going to play in your collection of handguns (most of mine have definate roles).

2. What kind of trigger pull are you more comfortable with, these two are as about as different as you can get.

3. What points naturaly and feels like butta (Boston term:)) in your hands.

Without knowing those three key things you might as well delay any purchases. If you do know all of teh above then you need not be reading this thread anymore. You should be at the range practiceing with your new gun.

Neither of these are bad guns that much goes without saying.

Good luck,
Jason