need legal advise 30 rnd mags for saiga 7.62x39( serious issue please respond)issue

[ammo first]

Need to know if my saiga can legally accept what I assume to be non factory altered 30 rnd ak mags. Really appreciate some sound advise on this one . thanks members. the ammo man.

[yankytrash]

If the mag will still work in an AK, the answer is yes. It doesn't have to be able to lock in the AK, but it at least should be able to flip into the AK and feed the bullets to it.

If it doesn't fit an AK anymore, the law gets a little sketchy. If that's the case, see if the person put a date on the mag. If there's a date (of pre-94), it'll probably be alright. Or if there's a serial number, you're probably alright. A legal serial number approved by the BATF will be at least 1/4" tall letters.

If there's no date or serial number, you might want to keep that one off the public ranges for now.

My guess is that it will still fit an AK. If I'm not mistaken, the Siaga and AK actions are very similar, if not the same.

Contact Tromix. He/they modify and manufacture mags to fit Valmets. They know the law like the back of their hand. Email: [email protected]

He's a very helpful guy. He occasionally browses these boards, and may even answer this here. Either way, he'll probably email you back in a day or two.

Good Luck.

[HankB]

If there's no date on the mag, then it's assumed to be "pre-ban" manufacture. That's because the law requires "post-ban" manufactured standard cap mags to be stamped with the date.

I don't recall seeing any AK magazines with serial numbers.

I'd guess (and I'm not a lawyer, so it's just a guess) that the only problem would be some BATF regs requiring that a certain number of parts in a "post ban assault rifle" be of domestic manufacture. Shotgun News has often had ads for "domestic parts kits" to comply with these regulations.

[johnAK]

or you can simply buy Kreb's AK-103, that's real SAIGA+changed to US made parts to satisfy law+custom gunsmith assembly+beautifully ugly real AK finish, walla, you have real AK from real russia's factory with real latest AK look,
I gotta buy those!!!

[IamNOTaNUT]

There are a couple of ways to read your question, so please be more specific. Does "non factory altered" magazine mean:

1. a non-factory, altered magazine (i.e an aftermarket magazine that HAS been altered)

2. a non factory-altered magazine (i.e a factory magazine that the factory has not altered, though some else may have)

3. an unaltered magazine (i.e. a magazine that has not been altered)

I don't mean to be a pain in the rear, but the exact meaning is important to the way the magazine would be classified under federal law.

[James K]

First, the magazine cartridge limit has NOTHING to do with the so-called "assault rifle" ban. Detachable magazines made after 1994 are limited to 10 rounds for civilian sale no matter what gun they fit, or whether it is full/semi-auto or manually operated.

High capacity magazines made after that date must be marked with the date of manufacture or with the words "military/law enforcement only" or similar wording. They are illegal for a civilian to possess. High capacity magazines made before that date are legal to use in any gun they fit or can be made to fit.

It is illegal to alter a 10 round magazine to accept more than ten rounds.

Jim

[yankytrash]

The dates and serial numbers are for BATF-approved high-cap preban mags that have been altered to fit another gun. A lot of times (I take that back - I should say a few times), this method is accepted for guns that do not have any source of manufature for mags, or, for mags that will fit one gun, and with minor modification fit another.

The preceding case would need ATF approval/documentation.

But yes, you are correct. Civilians cannot have new manufacture high-cap postban mags. We might enjoy ourselves too much, and we can't have that.....

[James K]

Hi, Yanky,

I'm not sure I understand. If the mag is pre-ban, it does not matter what gun it fits, or how many rounds it holds, or how it is altered.

If, let us say, I want to alter a WWII 30 round TSMG mag to work in an M3 SMG, I don't need approval or anything else from BATF. (Yes, I know it probably can't be done - this is hypothetical.)

If I take 3 10-round post-ban mags and weld them together to make a 30-round mag, I am violating the law.

Jim

[dZ]

if your modification of a magazine causes the item to no long function in the gun it was designed for,
then you have just manufactured a magazine

if the magazine holds over 10 rounds then you are in violation of the 94 ban.

[ammo first]

Member;s thanks for the input. My source tell's me that A. There is no date stamp anywhere on the mags in question. and B. That these magazines will function in a ak-47 (the gun the mag was intented for) I'm I good to go, or are thier other issue's to consider? thanks again.

[yankytrash]

If they fit the AK, go for it. No dates or serial numbers required.

dZ - Thanks for simplifying what I was trying to explain.

[glockten]

The question is, will the 30-rounders function in the Saiga without modification?

I owned a Saiga, briefly, a couple of years ago. East German AK mags would not feed in it. I replaced it with an SLR-95.

[Mark O]

You have to add a feedramp and widen the mag well for regular AK mags to fit.But to use the thirty round mags you have to replace five factory parts with US made parts to stay legal.

[ammo first]

Is this essentially what the krebs ak is doing? Also, can the five parts be something as simple as stock, forend, sights etc.. or would it have to be intenals or something else altogether?

[yankytrash]

The parts can be as simple as you dream up.

Stocks are usually the first thing to replace.

To get ideas for the rest of the parts to replace, look at DoggofDemis's post at AR15 here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=42794

Those are lists for an AK. You don't have to replace as many parts for Siaga, because it has less parts. Parts replacement is on a percentage.

Note: Magazine parts DO count toward the replacement parts.

[James K]

I have checked with BATF and while the answer was rather nebulous, it can be illegal to modify a pre-ban high-cap magazine for use in a gun other than that for which it was designed. The person I spoke with would say only that if the magazine body was altered substantially, it would be the same as manufacturing a new magazine. I tried to elicit more information, but he would say only that I should write them and describe in detail what I wanted to do and they would tell me if it was legal or not.

So my apologies for the erroneous information. This would appear to be another case where a poorly conceived and badly written law allows a multitude of interpretations.

Jim

[johnwill]

If you need legal advice, consult a lawyer! Do you really want someone you have never met making legal judgments for you???

[blackdragon]

It is a bad sign when a simple question like "Can I modify an Ak47 mag to fit a Saiga" has no simple answer.

Truly the laws are more complicated than they should be; you almost have to fear anything that isn't standard, just in case there is an obscure law out there against it.

Hell, I had thought it was a wonderful idea to put a front grip on one of my pistols, should make it easier to hold..until someone pointed out that made in an AOW. And I'd never have guessed a bayonet was restricted/illegal..make no sense at all.

*sigh*

Simple, obvious laws would be so nice....

blackdragon

[Jamie Young]

I sold my Saiga Rifle a few years ago because I couldn't find anything but the 5rd mags for it. It said in the owners manual that they make 10rd mags but I have never been able to find them. Do a Search on TFL for Saiga Rifles. Somebody here has one, and they said they had the gun altered LEGALLY. I would not try fooling with Magazines because you can get in trouble. I loved my Saiga but I got in a situation in the Mountains a few years ago and that was the only rifle I had around. We had to chase a Prowler off my friends property and I would have been outgunned by someone with a Six Shooter :(. Good Luck with your Gun !!!

[ammo first]

First thanks to Jim Keenan and everyone who responded. Secondly, I'm sure the specific laws regarding magazines and a multitude of other gun laws are intentionaly ambiguios,giving the atf a distinct advantage to interpet and thus enforce a given law in a variety of diff. ways. It is an intentional and obvious abuse of authority and a simple game of gotcha. If I called the atf tommorow I 'd get a diff. answer probably. This is ludicrios, how can law abiding citizens be expected to obey laws with no clear definition, yet be subject to prosecution at the will of the atf. All based on the ambiguity of the original law. GOTCHA