Pump/lever action for defense - Practical reliability?

[Dave3006]

I love pump shotguns. Lever actions are fun rifles to shoot. However, I wonder about how realistic they are in a real life SHTF scenario. One thing I never hear people talk about is the "human factor" in operating these weapons. For example, I have been to several shooting schools where people used pump action shotguns. It seemed to me that I saw trained people short shuck or have a operator induced malfunction at least once in every 15-20 shots. That is a fact based on my experience. I know I will hear people out there say that this is just operator error. But, I think you have to take this into account when looking at a weapon that demands a human being to make it function reliably. The dirty little secret is that people make mistakes under pressure. This can't be ignored. That being the case, I think a person, in general, is better off with a reliable semi auto instead of a lever action or pump action in a life or death situation.

I remember hearing Chuck Taylor state in a class, "KISS, keep it simple, stupid. Because, when you are under deadly stress you become pretty stupid. You are at less than 50% of your fighting capabilities".

This seems to make sense. You have to plan for less than a perfect response on your part.

[PreserveFreedom]

The only problem with a semi auto in some hands is that you might want them to have to cycle something inbetween shots to keep them from overkilling. If someone isn't confident with a pump of lever action, a semi may be for them. If it's not, keep in mind that many a home has been defended by an dual 18" barreled 20 ga.

[Kilrain]

Dave,

I too have witnessed people "short shucking" pump guns. I don't, however, agree with your opinion. As with almost anything, training is the key. Drawing from a level II or III holster is the biggest pain in the buttocks that most street cops have had to deal with in many years however it can be done. As a matter of fact, it can be done efficiently and just as fast as from a holster with no retention devices.

I know and realize that most cops practice and draw from their duty holsters on a regular basis(I hope!). Maybe they should practice with their shotguns. Additionally, before it turns into the "I don't have the money in the training budget" issue, let me say this. I think that it is just as likely for an officer to forget to disengage the safety on a semiauto shotgun or forget how to charge the weapon from a cruiser ready status(I hope you don't carry your semiauto with a round in the chamber) as it is for an officer to "short shuck" a pump gun.

This is, of course, just my opinion and it won't, unfortunately, even buy you a cup of coffee.

Kilrain

[IZZY]

DA auto's are meant to have a round in the chamber...and if its a safe gun like the Walther you should have no problems... And I never use a "safety" on a DA....but i digress...


Some folks will choke up, some will get mean/mad as hell. I agree that if they have used the lever in practice they should be able to do it in real life. I agree that things don't always work out...emotion is emotion

If you are not confidet in your lever mechanisim, then by all means don't use it for defense, getcha a SAR (1,2,3,) and some cheap mags and blast away....

[Poodleshooter]

While in a recent shooting session with 3 friends, and only 20 rounds between us, there were 4 incidences of "short levering" with my Winchester 94. Unless you have extensive training, stick with a semi-auto for repeat shots.

[John Marshall]

A great deal of the problem with short stroking pump guns or lever guns and training with the same is in mental attitude toward your equipment. Both action types require strong, decisive movement of the action. There are people who will not work the action of a pump or lever with enough power to relialbly operate the gun, many because they are afraid of hurting the gun. They would be a lot better off worrying about something more pressing if they are in imminent danger.

[Good Guy]

Good point JM. I don't ever recall short shucking a pump shotgun, but then my memory ain't what it used to be :o . But I KNOW I've never short shucked a lever gun. If I'm shooting serious, levers and pump handles are really slamming! I'd be more concerned with me breaking the lever off the gun, rather than short stroking it. I wouldn't hesitate to use a lever or pump gun for self defense. Matter of fact I do!

I have forgotten his name, but have you ever watched the speedy shotgun fella on American Shooter shooting a pump gun? Or watch the CBA guys shooting their lever guns in competition? They don't look handicapped by their choice of guns to me.

[Glamdring]

One problem I have encountered with pump shot guns is that when you shoot from behind cover or using field rests you can have problems.

IMHO auto pistols and auto rifles are more reliable under most situations than levers, pumps, or bolts. And if you DO have a problem with an auto it is usually easier & faster to clear with an auto than with manual action.

Personally I prefer autos for defense because I expect the range to be close. While for hunting or offense I prefer bolt action and single shot rifles [easier to make really accurate and/or chamber in improved or wildcat cartridges] or revolvers [revolvers can handle much more powerful cartridges than semi pistols without getting to large to carry, consider 475 Linebaugh or 454 Casull].

[Dr.Rob]

The only time I've ever short shucked a shotgun (say that 3 times fast) was at a full run when switching from shot to a slug. I've never ss'ed one shooting at game or clays.

Training? Sure its an issue. Talk to our expert on shotguns, most guys don't train enough. I notice that in our IDPA side matches I finish higher than a lot of guys with tricked out *tactical* semi autos, and a guy with a double once beat me. Its about experience & practice. How often do you shoot your shotgun? I find it amazing to see someone MISS a steel with #8 birdshot at 30 feet, but it happens.

Now on to pump rifles. My dad has hunted with a remington 760 carbine for 20 years. Other than the limited magazine capacity its a serious rifle for ANY situation. And in most "shots at game" situations ie deer or elk running through the bushes in front of you you might shoot a semi auto FASTER but not more accurately (at least not in 30-06, and not in a rifle that weight)

As for lever guns, I have noticed a tendency on those big bore marlins to break extractor tips and some guys get hung up in the ejection port. They are usually handloading HOT 45-70 to get this result. A pistol caliber lever gun is a fast shooting fast handling low recoil weapon and you don't have to take it off your shoulder or change your sight picture to work the action. Same is true in rifle calibers. You have to practice doing it and when you work that lever WORK it. Don't be slow. Slowly working a lever gun tilted sideways etc is what contributes to jams.

Recall also that we are finding more and more states with restrictions on semi auto rifles. Well a winchester model 94 was an "assault rifle" to the indians at one time. Its still a viable weapon for game or defense.

Practice makes perfect. Practice shooting a levergun quickly. Practice shooting your shotgun quickly. Hunting is good practice.

[CWL]

I don't agree with the "operator induced malfunction at least once in every 15-20 shots". Don't recall ever short-shucking my Rem. 870 Marine Magnum, had it for at least 8 years. I do recall once double-loading 2 shells somehow. I have a new Beretta 1200 and have experienced several loading/ejection problems -but all of them are attributable to operator error.

The British SAS determined that it takes 2500 repetitions before the body commits anything to muscle memory. Prior to the SHTF, I would recommend a lot of practice.