militia weapon recommendations?

[RichardEdward]

i am looking at what type of weapon i should purchase that would serve the purpose of being a militia firearm (good capacity, short to medium range, reliable)

i am leaning towards a .223 but am also considering 9mm carbines (could share clip with pistol-would mean less ammon to carry if i had a rifle and a pistol with same cart) .. also thought about the .308 but dont think i want to go that route (should i reconsider? why?

what are your recommendations? I like the bullpup style because i like the full lenght barrel while being a compact unit.. dont need the match grade accuracy..

background on my current weapons: 9mm s@w 915, marlin 22 semi rifle, 12 guage 1187, 20 ruger red label, 30-06 a bolt with boss, kel tec p32

thanks
RichardEdward

and i live in a midwest state without Kalifornia style bans

[BB]

I believe the Militia mostly carried Brown Bess muskets, maybe I'm wrong.

[David Wile]

Hey RE,

You could try an AR-15 or an M1A, but they are on the high dollar side. If you want a very good military weapon that is inexpensive and very reliable, look at the SKS. If looking at the SKS, however, be careful. The Chinese Norincos have been imported in several different qualities. Their best ones with chrome bolts and threaded barrels are quite good. For my money, I like the Russian SKS the best. I have two Russian SSKSs (one in regular hardwood stock, and one with a laminated stock) and a very good Norinco. They all function perfectly and are quickly loaded with 10 round stripper clips. The 7.62X39 ammo is available all over the place and inexpensive in the throw away ammo. I personally do not care for the foreign surplus ammo because much is corrosive and not easily reloadable. I bought a few cases of Lapua ammo years ago a few years ago and reload them over and over. I also have a Colt AR-15 and a Ruger Mini 30, and both are chambered for the 7.62X39. I also have a Colt AR-15 in the .223, but I am not sure why. What I do not have and wish I did is a Springfield M1A. I think it is a great weapon, but I cannot explain why I never got it instead of the .223. Do not let anyone put the SKS down. It shoots a powerful 30 cal. bullet, and it shoots it reliably, and with accuracy.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Tshoes]

Richard,
the militia weapons, of yester year would be the AR series of rifle today............223 cal, and the sidearm, is of course 9mm.

The wording of the day, was militia members, were to have "Like", weapons of those of the regular Army...same holds true today...some folks are so PC minded, they won't speak the truth....but I will, so.....there you go.

Stick with the Nato calibers, and you will be exactly, legally, Constitutionally were you LAWFULLY should be.

True Militia, contrary to the PC as***** maniacal fears, is nothing to fear, and the mere "Mention", of the word, for sure isn't.

Ask most men today, and they can't even tell you who is IN the Militia, or WHAT constitutes it.

It's called "Dumbing Down".

[PreserveFreedom]

You'de definately want a true rifle caliber for your long gun, such as 223Rem or 7.62x39mm. In the case of a firefight, chances are that your opponents will have some type of body armor. a 9x19mm at a distance won't stand much chance of penetration. If you want to have the best of both worlds, I think you can get a 9x19 upper for an AR15 as well as a 223.

[SouthernShark]

I like to have as many guns as I can get my hands on.

IMHO:


The best weapon would be an M1A or AR-10 (FAL would be my third choice). These guns give you 20 rounds of .308. .308 is still used by the military (in machine guns and sniper rifles). It will give you the greatest long distance power. If a real militia insurgency ever happened hit and run sniper attacks would be the norm.

Your next best bet is an AR-15. Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, DMPS, and a few other name brand manufacturers all put out good quality products. The .223 cal round is the #1 military round used in the world today. Ammo will always be in supply.

Finally, there is the AK series of rifles. AK's are fantastic Close quarter battle weapons. They are ultra reliable, and accurate enough for close quarter battle. If you want to stick with .223 get yourself a SAR-3 or a Vepr II. If you go with 7.62x39mm get yourself a SAR-1 or a Vepr II chambered for 7.62x39mm.

I would strongly advise starting off with an AK. You aren't going to do long distance shooting at first. More importantly, AK's are cheap right now. Mags are cheap. Ammo is cheap. Buy low and sale high eh?

-SS

[RickD]

The .308 makes the .223 look like a poodle shooter that it is. Do a search here for comparisons on these two calibers.

If you are of slight build, go with the AR15 in .223. If you are of normal, male build, go with a .308 . My preference is the FNFAL, but there is no over-riding reason to limit yourself to that, if your finances allow you the other choices. $5 FAL mags compared to $50 mags for the others is just one consideration, however

[George Hill]

http://www.robarm.com/vepr%20ii%20223.htm
http://www.robarm.com/223_VEPR_II_Side.jpg

Next question?

[WalterGAII]

George: He's not talking about the Red Chinese Militia, he's talking about those American militias, where the fat middle-aged wannabes play around in the woods.

[E. BeauBeaux]

The LEGP would fill all the needs you set in your post. Check it out http://www.castle-arms.com

[lonegunman]

I think common "militia" weapons (eg Ruger mini14, SKS, etc) might not be the best thing for a militia to use if you consider the tactics they will likely have to employ.

I would think the militia will always likely be outnumbered by better trained, and better equipped troops. Guerilla style tactics would be used, ambush, firing from behind concealed locations, etc.

They may be better off with a more accurate rifle offering less capacity. Cooper's scout concept might work real well for that.

[RichardEdward]

lonegunman,

whats cooper's scout?

[MiniZ]

RichardEdward,
What do the other members your group(or group you plan on joining) have? Ammo compatibility among members should be paramount. I have also spoke to members of groups that choose to use the same weapon exclusively for ease of maintenence and parts interchangability.


Zane

[lonegunman]

RichardEdward:

I was referring to Col. Jeff Cooper's scout rifle concept. No less than a ton of information is available on the idea; try the search function on this forum.

Basically though, the scout rifle is a short, light weight rifle of decent caliber (eg 308 win) with a forward mounted low powered scope. Action type depends on the preference of the user, but could be semi-auto, lever, or most commonly bolt.

I do not think a high capacity semi auto is necessarily what you need. It would seem unlikely a small group would want to attack a large army on a battlefield.

[RichardEdward]

MiniZ:

dont know at this point.. i move around a lot..

[RichardEdward]

lonegunman;

i doubt i would attack either .. this would be more of a defensive weapon after a sniper attack

[RichardEdward]

GeorgeHill,

can you get that in bullpup (aftermarket is ok)

[Futo Inu]

Could you or someone please tell me what kind of 30 round .223 mags are "readily available" that look like that?

[Jeff Thomas]

I'm curious as well. From the Robinson Armament web site, looks like they only sell proprietary 5 and 10 round mag's for .... drum roll .... $45 each! I know the VEPR's do have a great reputation, but I wonder about the cost from RA? Nothing listed.

Sounds to me as though your best bets are indeed the old standbys noted above ... SKS, AK, AR, or for more penetration / range M1A, FAL, AR-10. Lots of good choices there, in cost and capabilities.

My strongest advice would be to purchase "Boston's Gun Bible" at www.javelinpress.com . Some of the best money you'll ever spend. Lots of good info re: your question. For such a significant investment, it is worth careful research.

Regards from AZ

[K80Geoff]

A good militia weapon is any weapon that you can use with competence against a threat.

A good bolt action with scope in a common caliber is probably the best choice. After all, if you can use it properly after a day or so there will be plenty of fully auto or burst weapons available:)

Geoff Ross

[Marko Kloos]

AFAIK, only the VEPR II in .308 uses the expensive proprietary magazines. The VEPR II variants in 7.62x39 and 5.45mm use the regcap magazines from the AK-47 and AK-74, respectively.

[WalterGAII]

"Sniper attack?" hardehardeharharhar!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RichardEdward]

walter,

sure.. i dont know about you but i would not be comfortable with simply a bolt action sniper rifle if i was retreating from a larger force after sniping them.... at least a high capacity semi-auto style rifle would give

[RichardEdward]

im not so sure that would be the case.. i doubt i would wipe them all out.. probably would be hit and run.. and i cant see the ones the live abandoning the weapons of those that didnt

[George Hill]

.223 VEPR II Mag = $19.00
7.62X39 VEPR II Mag = $12.99

Here is the Price List:
http://www.robarm.com/price_list_2001_22_feb.htm

These are the best things going... You might pay a little more - but your getting a LOT more.

As far as a Bullpup version - you'll have to get a kit for it and make the conversion.
Its possible - and would make the best Bullpup this side of the TAVOR! (If you got a good kit that is)

[jnsn]

After much thinking about this subject I purchased a STG-58. I would have bought the M14 but i am short on cash. I feel that , in short,any militia activity would be fought against a well armed, well supplied adversary.They would be able to overcome the inherent limitations of the 223 round by having unending supplies of it. For this reason alone stand off distance would become paramount. A 308 battle rifle would allow one to stay outside the 2-300 yard range of the 223, with your round having plenty of punch to make it through obstacles. Also, I think that you would have enough trouble getting off the 20 rounds before the suprise was over and the 50 caliber hailstorm was headed your way. Hopefully at that point one of your side would start up from another sector with his/her 20 rounds.

I feel a lot of people are seduced into thinking of Militia weapons as street fighting, house to house tools. And I guess thats what it would be in some areas. However, if you include for the other side M-60's, M2's , rocket launchers etc, I think that you will see that you would be holding onto to your "poodle shooter" while your position is turned into dust around you.Having said that, I would choose an AK for that scenario.

[Zigokubasi]

Bolt-action? Taking on a numerically superior, better trained force? Gentlemen, I'm pretty sure none of you has any *real* idea what this is going to entail. If we do this, a full-blown stage 3 guerilla war against the state, we're going to be fighting much the same way the IRA fought Great Britan. Yes, there will be some sniping involved, usually against politically important targets, or stragglers from a larger force. Most action will take the form of short, violent, close-range ambushes performed from behind cover against a selected, weak opponent. Supply trains, power stations, banks, isolated military units, etc...

There won't be any kind of "taking to the field" sort of action, at least not until we've a) captured tanks and artillery, and b) trained men on how to use those captured field pieces. Even then, we're not EVER going to have air superiority, so such "field actions" will be relatively few in number. I imagine a very Vietnam-like strategy would work best, building up our "conventional" forces in secret while we conduct harassing guerilla operation in myriad urban environments. The rural areas won't be our battlegrounds, they're going to be our refuge. If a rural "safe house" is discovered, then and only then is there likely to be any kind of military action in a rural setting, and that's going to be a tactical withdrawal under fire.

The best gun to have? Whatever you can use to defend yourself with. No "registered" firearm will be of much use until open warfare erupts, and that's only going to happen if enough resources are obtained to support it, either captured form Federal troops, or provided by a foreign power that recognizes our movement as a legitimate cause and wishes to gain our favor. Make no mistake, we NEED a foreign ally to win. Our forefathers needed the assistance provided by France to win the Revolutionary War, and we're going to need it to win the Second American Civil War.

Don't fret too much about what to buy. *Any* rifle in 7.62x39, .223, or .308 should be fine. Ammo resupply will be available for any of those calibers no matter what. As long as you can use it, and use it well, you should be fine. Even if it's only a handgun, you can use it to get a better weapon later. The key is improving you personal skill level, not what weapon you buy.

Sorry about the rant and biased personal opinions, guys....it's been a long day :D

Ziggy

[Snapsho7]

Zigokubasi,

A Militia is used to defend against ALL enemies; foriegn and domestic.

One of the problems some people have is they think a militia is only preparing to fight our own government WHICH IS TOTALLY WRONG!

:mad:

It never ceases to amaze my how the one organization which is mention by name in the 2nd ammendment is and continues to be so easily villified.




Live Fast, Die Hard, and take alot of the buggers with you when you go!

[RichardEdward]

how does the reliability of it compare to some of the other weapons? esp the AK type

[Zigokubasi]

I villified nothing. I merely expounded upon the most likely scenario. The Red Chinese hordes aren't exactly at our doorstep. If there are foreign enemies, fine. But right now.....

Ziggy

[Jeff Thomas]

George, I stand corrected. Thank you. [why I would ever dispute you escapes me ... ;) ]

Regards from AZ

[WalterGAII]

Snap: Not villified, just appropriately sillified.

[RichardEdward]

george.. little confused by the vepr.. with regard to mags.. on the faq page http://www.robarm.com/answers%20to%20vepr%20faqs.html#anchor262920


Can the VEPR accept other magazines? Will it take a high capacity magazine?

The VEPR accepts only its own magazine. Therefore, the VEPR will not accept magazines from other rifles. VEPR magazines come in 5 and 10 round capacities.


i think i would want at least 20 round mags.. and maybe 30 rd

[Cosmoline]

That's right! In fact, the "militia" includes pretty much every citizen who can shoot. Far from being an anti-Fed organization, it's likely that much of the real militia would be fighting AGAINST anti-government insurgents and FOR the union in an actual revolution, just as many loyalists in Ireland took up arms against the IRA. Obviously, that's not a road we want to go down. Far better that we should be fighting and preparing on the same side, but that's another topic.

As far as the weapon of choice, what about the humble, ubiquitous .30-30 levergun as an option for the rifle box, at least as a second rifle? It's about equal to the 7.62x39 on the charts, yet ammo for it is FAR more common than AK ammo stateside. You can find it from bush Alaska to the deep south. In addition, .30-30's such as the Winchester '94 and Marlin models are far cheaper than most of the other weapons listed here. I picked up an old Marlin for $125 a few months back. It's also something you could hand to your unarmed, untrained neighbor in a pinch without worrying too much about the shooting of feet. As far as killing power, I posted a pick showing what even a .30-30 could do to a man's head here a while back. It was very, very nasty.

[Mort]

Richard, can we have a little more info with regard to your specific intentions? Forgive me for sounding suspicious, but caution, I'm sure you'll agree, is always warranted in these affairs.

[RichardEdward]

Mort,

looking for a weapon that will allow me to do my duty as a member of the militia and will hold up to any court challenges (such as Texas v Miller (i think that was the one)). And one that will be most effective in a shtf situation... any number of possibilities exist... you choice of weapon would probably depend on which situations you think are most likely, or finding a compromise that would serve in all situations but would excel in none.

[fivefingers]

What is the URL for the Robinson Armorment Web Site. Thanks

[Karanas]

As others have already pointed out, you're better off equipping yourself with hardware that is compatible with whatever your friends and/or enemies will be likely to use.
Whatever the circumstances of a future armed conflict may be, whether foreign or domestic, one thing you can count on is that civilian (/militia) access to firearms, ammunition and spare parts will likely be severely restricted if not completely eliminated. You will have to make do with whatever you have on hand or can manage to acquire.
Since the likelihood of a land invasion by troops using the old Warsaw Pact weaponry is pretty much a logistical impossibility, the equipment and supplies most likely to be in abundance will be US/NATO.
That said, an AR-15 type rifle in .223 and a Beretta or Glock pistol in 9mm would appear to be sound choices.
That way, your resupply needs can either be issued by a friendly regular Army/Police unit or acquired through the post mortem requisition of an unfriendly regular Army/Police unit.