What's a good shotgun for tactical purposes?

[RANash]

I haven't held a shotgun in my arms since I was a boy on the farm, but I'm getting interested in getting one for home defense, since everyone tells me its far better than my handguns for that purpose.

If I do get one, the first thing I'll do is get some instruction on tactical use of the shotgun from a reputable training outfit like Gunsite or somesuch, the way I did with my first handgun.

So, my question is--what shotgun should I get? Besides just giving me the model, tell me why you think it's a good choice.

Thanks!

[BMWGS80]

Pump gun Rem. 870 - All other guns are judged by this model. Plenty of parts, you can rebuild it forever. My 870 has digested 1000s of rounds of Mag Buck 00/000/#4 and Brenneke slugs in the last 20 yrs. No "low recoil/LE ammo"
available 'til recently. It has qualified over 10 officers at the state LE academy. Will cloverleaf slugs at 100 yds.

For an Auto the best is the Beneli M1. Fastest,lightest, most reliable.

Your choice, Good luck.\

ts

[Dave McC]

A shotgun is a good tool to have around, IF....

One actually likes shooting it. Back when I instructed heavily for the State of Md's Correctional System, I found that no rookie moved past bare minimum competence unless they shot a shotgun recreationally, and the more they shot, the better they did, regardless of game or sport. IOW, a trapshooter, with his/her ritualized game and specialized equipment, shooting twice weekly, was oddson better at "Serious" shotgunning than a casual hunter who shot at doves a few times a year and maybe a goose hunt or two.


ANY reliable shotgun of at least 2 shot capacity and 20 ga or more is an incredibly effective close range defensive tool in trained hands.

And that's right out of the box, no bells, no whistles. While there's a lot of old threads on this with great input, here's a couple of parameters IF you're willing and able to put in the time and committment "Serious" shotgunning requires.

Length, under 4 feet, 40" is better.

Capacity, at least two shots.

Sights,whatever works for you.

Action type, see above.

Trigger, clean, safe and under 4 lbs or so.

Stock, any full length(No PG onlys) stock that FITS.

And plenty of ammo.REPEAT, plenty of ammo. Use up, buy more, do it again.

There you go, no bells, whistles, fuzzy dice or fender skirts. No lazers, belt feeds, bayonets,or super 3 1/2" shells loaded with depleted Uranium 000 pellets rubbed with garlic.

And, while my "Serious" shotguns are 870s with lots of accessories, every single piece that's been added has been added after establishing a need,rather than a want.The mag extensions are there as much for kick control and slug group tightening as for any hunch I have that 6 or 7 rounds of shotgun ammo will get me out of an AS scenario that 4 rounds won't.

I could go shoot my old agency qualifier with an absolutely stock 870 and score over 90%. With the gadgets added, maybe 95%, at a guess.

And,dunno if a tyro needs Gunsite level instruction, but it can't hurt.Sufficiently advanced instruction at the beginner level may be available closer, cheaper and more accessible.

As for choice, the 870s are hard to beat. Get a used one, they last forever, and QC may be slipping in these PC times...

Any questions, sing out.....

[AAshooter]

I would suggest you look at an 870 or 590A1 both are fine guns and will do the job. You might want to check out Vang Comp to see what he offers (http://www.vangcomp.com). Hans is a great guy and will answer any questions you have.

He does some great modifications with impressive results. Even if you don't want to get his guns, it will probably give you some ideas on which guns might be appropriate and how you might want to set one up.

I have taken the tactical shotgun class at Front Sight. It is a good class and you can really see the various shotguns in action. You might want to consider taking your class and then buying the shotgun. Front Sight, for example, can probably set you up with a gun. You might even be able to try both the 870 and 590A1.

[Sprint Sucks]

I tackeled this question recently when purchasing a shotgun for HD.
Your basic considerations are:
1. Reliability: this must approach 100%, anything else is unacceptable to hang your life on.
2. Capacity, despite the HUGE advantage in stopping power, having extra shells on board sure is reassuring.
3. Controllabilty: You probably can accomplish the job without magnum 3" shells, and a shorter barrel (18") is easier to manuever.
4. Cost. This may or may not be a factor depending on ones circumstances.
5. Ammunition choices: Pump isn't picky, will cycle any load manually, on the other hand, good autoloader with tested ammo should be too (unless you hang a bunch of junk on it), and can be cleared almost as easily.

Overwhelming favorites seem to be the Remington 870 (pump) and Bennelli M1. (auto)

If cost is an issue, the 870 will likely do just fine.
If you prefer an autoloader, the M1 is mighty hard to beat.
Just be aware the Benelli inertial recoil system doesn't cushion the recoil like a gas system. Hence the recoil hits like a pump. So don't go with it if that the only reason you would choose an autoloader.

You probably won't notice it or care if you're shooting for your life, but for practice or fun shooting it might matter to you.

I choose the Benelli. The major reason was simplicity of operation in a crisis. Point and shoot. Jams can be cleared by pulling the side lever if need be. No worry of "short-stroking" a pump, which I've seen reported by trained, specialized LEO types.

I doubt you can go wrong with either choice.
Any shotgun will likely do just fine in a pinch, but if you want every advantage, pick an 870 or M1.

Then pattern it.

[Glamdring]

My $0.02

Action choice: First pick is semi, followed by double, with pump being last. That is if your going to shoot from behind cover in practice or real world. I have had far fewer problems with autos vs pumps when shooting from awkward postitions that using cover sometimes forces one to take. Plus the fixed forend of a auto or double makes precision shooting [with slugs] easier because the forearm is fixed.

If you go with a 12 gauge double or pump try the "tactical" low recoil buckshot loads. They are much more comfortable to shoot and often pattern better [less pellet deformation I think].

IMHO I think the "training" from most of the schools is over rated as far as skill building is concerned. For recreation it is a different story. I think most people would be far better off spending the money a class would cost on ammo and practice time. And your post indicates you have already gone to Gunsite for pistol, so your familiar with their doctrine & etc already. I am aware this is a minority opinion though :D Just like my view on weapon gun mounted flashlights [Never on my serious guns thank ;)]

[HankB]

I like the Benelli M1S90. I've mostly shot OU and SxS shotguns, but after trying a Benelli, I had to have one. So far it's been completely reliable with my trap and skeet handloads and all factory ammo I've tried. I've "heard" it doesn't like light 1oz. loads.

The recoil operation is MUCH faster than the gas operation of shotguns like the Rem 1100; I remember timing John Satterwhite using a Benelli to break eight hand-thrown clay pigeons in just about 2 1/2 seconds, first shot to last.

[Bruegger]

...when the coffee sprayed out of my nose.

"There you go, no bells, whistles, fuzzy dice or fender skirts. No lazers, belt feeds, bayonets,or super 3 1/2" shells loaded with depleted Uranium 000 pellets rubbed with garlic. "

I'm STILL chuckling over the D.U. 000 pellets "...rubbed with garlic." Sounds like a multipurpose round for home defense: you can shoot it or flavor a roast with it!

One of my personal favorites for kitchen defense: 3 1/2" shells loaded with capers and green olives. Handy for holding off attacks by crazed chefs.

Bruegger out.

[Dave3006]

If you want a good defensive shotgun, I would recommend strongly the M1S90. I have owned pumps (870). I have been to the shooting schools (Frontsight, FTA ect..) Under pressure, most people screw up 5-10% of the time with pumps. I have seen so many short strokes from experienced operators on pump action shotguns. No matter how much I practiced, I would short stroke occassionally. It is just not worth taking that chance. I sold my 870s and never looked back. The last class I took with shotguns, the Benelli's were so much faster on the drills it was not even close. The 870s are good pump guns. However, Mr. Murphy says you will short stroke it when you are under stress. It is not worth taking that chance.

Human beings screw up. Human beings screw up more under pressure. I trust my M1S90 to cycle regardless of my state of mind.

[Dave McC]

You're quite welcome,Bruegger.It's a line I use periodically.FYI,an urban myth states that in pre-antibiotic days, gangsters rubbed their bullets with garlic, thinking infection was more likely to do in a lightly hit opponent, albeit not right then.

I've used 870s in goose blinds,deer stands, on deer drives, preventing prison escapes, in 3 gun and serious matches, and in most of the clay games. If I ever had a short stroke, it must have been decades ago.Having arms long enough to need a 36" shirt sleeve may help on that...

However, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. Everyone should find out what does work for them and then hone their skills with same.

[Glamdring]

Erick: If a class costs only $500.00 how much practice time and ammo could you get for that price staying at home? And $500.00 would be a very cheap class unless there is one next door to you [cost of class+travel+meals+etc]. Realistically for any class that you have to travel to your probably going to be spending $1000.00 or more between the class & expenses & time missed from work. What I was saying is that most people would get far more from spending that money on practice time & ammo.

Even if a school teaches "correct" responses it won't do you much good unless you practice them enough so they are reflexive. Which will take time and money outside of class.

I think the good shooting schools are good for teaching shooting skills & developing a good mindset. I don't think they are very good for developing true combat skills that most people need.

This thread is about using a shotgun. Which realistically would be either for home defense or LE use. At the shooting school would you be acquiring your SG from the storage location you use at home? Where your on the defensive [having the advantages of defense]? Or would they have you engaging targets from ready or sling or offensivly clearing buildings [where your clearing buildings you don't know]?

There are very few people who have lived thru very many civilian type defensive shooting situations that run a shooting school vs people that have been involved in LE or military type situations that teach shooting.

[Beowulf]

Glamdring,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has the same views about Shooting Schools not being the know all be all.

I agree with you 100% that in *many* cases the $$ spend at these schools is much better spend on ammo and targets at your local range.

Rock On,
B.

[Dave3006]

Shooting schools are just one of many things to do. Unless you are in actual combat, what you are doing is an imperfect drill. It can only mirror the reality of combat to some degree. That being said, get the basics and practice. Try everything - hunt, play paintball, target shoot, do 3 gun matches, ect... None of these are real life. However, you can learn something from all of them.

Dave

[Dave McC]

IMO, shooting schools do a lot of good, but they're not a panacea. And, by the time one gets to a school, he/she should be very competent at the basics. That takes ammo and range time.

Most of my formal weapons training was done at Govt expense, over a long period of time and a variety of methods.But, except for the stuff in Basic, most of it came to me because I was a good shooter. IOW, either I wouldn't have gotten the training if I hadn't gone out and sweated through the steeper part of the learning curve on my own.

LFI, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite,et al, put the cherry on top of the Sunday. They hone and polish what should already be there.

Best training tool in the world(Aside from being shot at and missed) is ammo and range time.A little imagination can help also. Back when the reports became public on the FBI Miami shootout, we instructors talked it over and tried to figure out the best way to work a shotgun effectively with one working arm. A few hours on the range and we had two methods of one hand racking that worked.

And Dave3006, amen to variety.

[Glamdring]

Dave: I agree with you about best training in the world being ammo and range time. But I would add lots of dryfire & if possible some type of force on force [you don't need to use paint guns even]. And studying tactics and case studies [ie real world events].

The Miami/Dade shootout was very instructive as was the LA Bank shootout a few years ago.

One thing I learned from both of those situations is that if your in LE or such [ie have to go looking for trouble sometimes] that a long arm near at hand can be very useful.

Another thing I learned, from those events and forensic work in college, is that LEO don't seem to have training/practice needed to work together under fire like an infantry squad can & does. Which makes sense since they don't very often need to be able to do that & when they do they normally try to contain situation and bring in SWAT who is trained to work that way.

Makes you wonder what will happen when LEO have to face 2 to 4 people that have trained/practiced working together as a unit? Seeing how much trouble they had with two people that sort of worked together in the two incidents mentioned.
***
Do any of the shooting schools cover what type of tactics to use if you have one or two kids with you when a goblin or group of goblins attack? Or do they focus on improving your splits?

I know which one worries me more :)

[Dave McC]

Agreed, Glamdring. A couple of things...

First, training is the very first part of a dept budget to go when things get tight. Then, when it hits the fan, money loosens up because the excuse is,"We didn't train for that due to the budget".

For agency brass, it's a convenient scapegoat that protects their careers but not the officers. To some scum in high places, that's OK.

Second, many agency qualifying courses are Mickey Mouse, intended to get people "Qualified" w/ little regard for the real world. My first shotgun qualification with Md DOC had me firing a few shots at rats on a dump. After the TO was satisfied I knew what I was doing, he told not to waste any more ammo while he tried to get two brand new rookie shooters qualified.I ended up instructing one of them.

But the tide changed, and 3 years later I was an instructor, helping to write a new training course and including some real world stuff, instead of skip shooting,firing warning shots, and other stuff left over from the Dark Ages of Correctional training.Not long after that we had a HRT and I had a place on the Weapons Squad of the Regional Tactical Unit, using an 870 with good technique.

For private citizens unlikely to have to look for trouble, a walkthrough their residence with a shotgun KNOWN TO BE UNLOADED will show any incipient problems.For instance,the multi floored townhouse we live in has a stairs that would demand a RH shooter from the upstairs to the main floor, then a LH shooter down to the basement for best work.

As for defense around kids, mine knew what to do by 2nd grade. Now, they're as likely to engage and neutralize as Wonderful Wife, tho not me. Much more experience is the difference.

Average LEOs facing 2-4 trained and co-ordinated perps usually means another name on a slab of marble someplace,a bereaved family, with the very brass who nixed the idea of better training and helped this officer get killed speaking in somber tones of" The last full measure" and other such meaningless phrases.

But, there's exceptions. I don't do much handgunning any more since these bifocals, but I shot their handgun course with a couple of the County Mounties I know, who are far from experts but are motivated to practice regularly. The course included shooting to 25 yards, but 90% was inside 10 yards, and 5 shots were at 1 yard, with weapons retention techniques required. One stage was 5 yards, one shot from holstered weapon, 3 inch bull, timed. Now there's a real world scenario.

Sorry, my buttons got pushed....

[ReserveCop]

I think the Scattergun Tech Border Patrol Model (which is based on the 870) would make an excellent "tactical" shotgun.

Thanks for your opinions.;)