CZ 97b broke again

[chris in va]

I bought my new 97b in 2011 and the lower barrel lug broke off during a match in 2014. Last week the flippin' thing broke again.

It is a separate piece, unlike my P01's looped one piece design. Talk about frustrating. I contacted CZ, will see if I get another free barrel or not.

[sigarms228]

Wow, sorry to hear that. That's pretty bad to have two broken barrels. Lets us know how it goes. When I bought my only CZ I was surprised the warranty was only for 5 years. :(

[Walt Sherrill]

I've heard of this once before, with a participant here. That was the first and only time I had heard of the problem until this week.

(I was a long-time regular on the CZ Forum, and never heard about the problem, back then. I recently rejoined that forum after a long absence, and I'll see if it's mentioned there.)

I had a similar problem with a Witness .45 barrel (on a Witness Long Slide) -- but that break included a crack through the chamber.

[Siggy-06]

Any idea of the round count before each barrel lug broke?

[chris in va]

Sorry, no idea on round count. I really just used it during matches and maybe 100 or so per range trip. Certainly nowhere near the count through my trusty P01.

[mr bolo]

sounds like the quality has gone down on CZ pistols, barrel lugs breaking two times is unacceptable, thats a bad sign.

they must have lowered their standards, using lower quality materials.

[Walt Sherrill]

sounds like the quality has gone down on CZ pistols, barrel lugs breaking two times is unacceptable, thats a bad sign.

they must have lowered their standards, using lower quality materials.

Or maybe a goblin has possessed the gun?

That makes as much sense as your assumption that two such failures are a sign of a major change in how CZ makes and controls the quality of it's products.

It might be just as reasonable to assume that the problem was due to a bad batch of barrels that slipped through the quality control checks (or that the quality checks weren't stringent enough in the first place.) That doesn't mean any short-cuts were taken or quality standards lowered. Several years ago I heard of a similar faiulre with a CZ-97B barrel (reported either HERE on TFL or on The High Road). Stuff happens.

That two barrel failures happened in one shooter's gun is bad and. statistically speaking, very unusual -- but hopefully, CZ will make it good.

[HiBC]

I have no experience with CZ handguns.

Its possible breaking underlugs is about the barrel quality,but not necessarily so.

A 1911 might break the underlug off of a perfectly good barrel if the barrel and frame are not fitted properly.

[USNRet93]

I bought my new 97b in 2011 and the lower barrel lug broke off during a match in 2014. Last week the flippin' thing broke again.

It is a separate piece, unlike my P01's looped one piece design. Talk about frustrating. I contacted CZ, will see if I get another free barrel or not.
Did you? Did CZ take care of ya?

[chris in va]

I called CS today, will know in a day or two whether I get a new barrel. Cajun Gun Works will have to recrown the barrel again too.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Unfortunately, that's a common issue I see among CZ firearms. :/ Breakage.

Does anyone make after market barrels for them that you could use?

[Walt Sherrill]

Unfortunately, that's a common issue I see among CZ firearms. :/ Breakage.

Interesting! Can you cite a number of examples of this "common issue" or give us some links?

I've been a CZ owner for years -- while I only have three CZs right now, I've have had many of them over the years, and also currently have a number of other handguns (ranging from SIGs, H&Ks, to S&Ws, FNs, Rugers, a Lionheart, and even a Keltec. And I've had a number of others. I've really not had problems with ANY of them.

I was a moderator on the CZ forum in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and have followed CZ weapons here and on other forums for almost two decades.

As best I can tell, breakage has NOT been a common issue with CZs -- except for a number of trigger return springs in the early 2000s. (They used an outside provider.) CZ also had some cosmetic problems with early P-07 and RAMI polymer frames -- bulges that looked awful, but the guns stilll worked right -- but CZ dealt with it.

I now personally know of THREE broken CZ-97B barrel lugs, but haven't heard of that problem with any other CZ model. (This despite the fact that CZ is selling a LOT MORE CZs today than they did about 10 years ago. If problems were common, I would expect more problems with more guns out there, but that doesn't seem to be the case.)

That said, I had a .45 Witness Sport Long Slide barrel break on me, but not the barrel lug -- a crack went through the chamber! A number of Witness 10mm and .45 slides had a tendency to crack, too -- and it was a problem that Witness would not cover under warranty; Tanfoglio eventually redesigned the slide, but the owners with cracked slides were just SOL.

Maybe you know something that many CZ enthusiasts don't. If so, we'd love to hear about it.

.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Well, it depends what the use of these CZs you've seen and used actually is.

Range guns that get out every so often for some plinking can last quite a while.

In my experiences, I'm speaking of guns for training/self defense etc. I have a friend who uses in one in such a manner and it's already suffered a broken slide twice. CZ took care of it, thankfully.

In classes where the weapon runs until it's really hot, dirty, dry, etc CZ hasn't been as reliable as Glock, Smith and Wessons, HKs, and certain SIGs. Suffering failures that deem the pistol inoperable such as broken internals. On a range I've worked at, I've seen failures mostly from CZs and Bersas. Even 2 long extractor SIG pistols.

It happens. So, I don't recommend CZ for serious self defense use as much as I'd recommend any of the other aforementioned which have a much less failure rate.

I think they're nice looking and shooting. Range wise, they can be great. I wouldn't recommend them at all for anything else.

[Walt Sherrill]

In classes where the weapon runs until it's really hot, dirty, dry, etc CZ hasn't been as reliable as Glock, Smith and Wessons, HKs, and certain SIGs. Suffering failures that deem the pistol inoperable such as broken internals. On a range I've worked at, I've seen failures mostly from CZs and Bersas. Even 2 long extractor SIG pistols.

Your comments are the FIRST mention I've read of broken CZ slides or other "internal breakages."

I've heard of broken slide stops on CZ, but they were generally experienced by shooters who installed stronger recoil springs (in hopes of protecting the slide stop, having heard of tales bout broken CZ slide stops on the internet). Unhappily, that stronger spring can actually have the opposite effect, causing the slide to slam shut with greater force.

I've also seen firing pin retention roll pins break n CZs, but only in guns that were excessively dry-fired. Dry-firing is specifically warned against in the early 75B owner manuals, and CZ even included a cheap snap cap in the box. A lot of shooters don't read the manual closely. Then, too, many, many CZ owners dry-fired without problems. We do know that CZ later doubled the roll pins in the "B" model CZs and the problem seems to have gone away.

Those two problems were, in effect, user-induced problems that could have been avoided. I wouldn't be surprised if they were among the breakages you wrote about.

I've spent a lot of time, over the years, at an indoor range where you will see a wide variety of shooters. I've observed a lot of problems, but the problems most often seem due to cheap (bargain basement) or badly hand-loaded ammo, or were caused by the home-gunsmithing work of folks who have modified their guns (or otherwise "upgraded" them with after-market parts).

Breakdowns in high round-count classes, from what I've seen or heard about, seems to affect a wide variety of guns, not just CZs. (I had a trigger return spring fail in my first Glock 17 during one of my first, small group classes. Luckily one of the other participants was a Glock armorer and he had a spare. Took hiom just a few minutes to fix it.)

I wonder why your experience is so different?

[armoredman]

Sounds familiar, to an instructor who posted a long diatribe against CZs claiming to have seen numerous failures on the line of a class many years ago, even though half of the pistols mentioned were not even CZ but clones. :) Tried to have an intelligent conversation with him and ended up sucked in to a rant by him and his students, wasn't worth the wasted air.
I've been shooting CZ pistols for decades and I have yet to have one break during class or range. I've had three GLOCKS break in my hand or in front of me, and I still think they are durable, reliable sidearms. We had rental CZs at the rental range I worked at, and they never broke. Of course, they weren't THERE long enough to break, since they were stolen during a late night break in about two months after I started. I could not convince the boss to buy more, she was convinced CZs were "Eurotrash". By the time I left we were a proud CZ stocking dealer. ;)
HK? We had six of the USPs - one year later we had one - the others were all back at the factory. Only HK we had that ran like a top was the P7M8. SIG full size P-220/P-226ran great - the pocket guns failed. Only brands I remember having no issue with the whole time I was there was Ruger autos and Smith revolvers. Wanna giggle? Someone convinced the boss to put one of those horrifying Jimenez 9mm on the rental counter - it did not last the entire day.
Now back to the OP - has CZ had the entire gun in the possession to check it out? This sounds odd, never heard of the 97 having issues. I would hope CZ gets that squared away ASAP.

[10-96]

2 barrels in the same frame... I kind of wonder if the problem isn't with an incorrect tolerance or angle in the frame itself? I may be wrong, and I don't have one in front of me to eyeball, but like others, I haven't heard of that problem before.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I wonder why your experience is so different?

Beats me.

Also, +1 with the Glock trigger return springs. Those are almost as routine for maintenance as a cleaning session. I think the NY1, though heavier is more solid. Then again, to each their own.

I know I'd never own a CZ product. Also a member on here who went a little CZ crazy, bought 2-3 and each one broke around the same time shortly after. He may chime in.

HK and SIGs seemed to last the longest in any rental program. Oh, M&Ps as well.

[Rinspeed]

I always thought it was very odd people didn't keep a rough count of rounds shot. A little sloppy to say the least, are some of these they same people who don't worry about how many miles their car has been driven since the last oil change. ;)

[Walt Sherrill]

HK and SIGs seemed to last the longest in any rental program. Oh, M&Ps as well.

The reason I was somewhat skeptical about all the CZ failures you mentioned is that I've never seen CZs that widely used among non-competitive shooters. Back when I was taking classes, I was usually the only one with a CZ.

About the only place I see CZs is in the gun games, where they're starting to have a following.

I know there are a lot of Witness handguns out there, too, but I just don't see them. A lot of them seem to be a favorite of handgun hunters, who rave about them on forums like this; but folks shooting 10mm don't seem to spend as much time at ranges as other shooters -- I think they just their own ranges out back.)

I have seen a lot of Glocks, polymer S&Ws, a variety of 1911s, in the gun games but I haven't seen many SIGs used in competition.

I've never seen that many H&Ks at ranges and seldom see H&Ks used in competition. 1 do see SIGs shot by individuals at the range -- but also a lot of .22s and Rugers semi-autos, revolvers, and every once in a while a Bersa or a Kel-Tec.

[lee n. field]

I always thought it was very odd people didn't keep a rough count of rounds shot. A little sloppy to say the least, are some of these they same people who don't worry about how many miles their car has been driven since the last oil change. ;)

Good intentions, but I loose track quickly.

The reason I was somewhat skeptical about all the CZ failures you mentioned

The whole conversation reminds me of the usual back and forth in a typical "XD bad!" thread.

[armoredman]

XD not bad - I liked the HS-2000. ;)

My CZ P-10C FDE has somewhere around 3000 through it with no failures, the White Nitride, last count was about 1700 IIRC, same thing. I never really remember to write it down. :)
Thanks for the reminder, People Mover does need an oil change. :D

[chris in va]

I'm not bashing CZ, own 5 of them. The 97 is the only one with serious issues. The rest just have...quirks.

[Walt Sherrill]

XD not bad - I liked the HS-2000.

And I have an XDm Competition in .45, and it's the best-shooting (in my hands) .45 I've owned -- although I've got a Glock 38 that I like almost as much. I've had a bunch of .45s over the years (97B, several SIG 220s, a 220 Match and 220 Super match, a semi-custom 1911 or two, a SIG GSR, and several Witnesses including a Sport Long Slide), and I shoot the XDm and 38 better than any of them. Others might get different results with the same guns.

The only issue I had with the XDm was getting familiar with the grip safety -- but that can be a problem for some folks with 1911s, too.

[Rinspeed]

XD not bad - I liked the HS-2000





I had one of the original HS-2000s I bought in a Glocktalk group buy. I think it was $240 or something. Like an idiot I sold it for a profit years later, that was stupid. When SA bought the rights the price went up $150 overnight.

[Webleymkv]

chris in va, are you running the stock recoil spring in your 97b? I've heard of CZ-75's breaking slide stops due to being undersprung from the factory (seemed to be an issue in the early 2000's). Perhaps, if you're running the stock spring, a replacement from Wolff might solve your issue.

[armoredman]

...HK and SIGs seemed to last the longest in any rental program...
I worked a rental range back in the day when the USPs came out. We started with 6. By the end of the year we had one - all the rest were back at HK. That was the same year TPD swapped from HK to Glock due to massive breakage in the USP. However, the P7M8 we had was a tank. The guns that held up the best over all were Ruger autos and Smith revolvers - I don't know how well the CZ would have lasted due to the fact that the range was broken into soon after I started and among other guns, the range rental CZ pistols were stolen. Oh, SIG, the P-220 and P-226 lasted just fine - the 230 broke about once a month. Spring issue, IIRC.
Back to OP - has CZ had the entire gun in their possession to check it out?

[Walt Sherrill]

I've heard of CZ-75's breaking slide stops due to being undersprung from the factory (seemed to be an issue in the early 2000's).

That "underspringing" continued for a long time -- with 14 lb. recoil springs having a measured "weight" of 12 lbs. But folks have used heavier and lighter recoil springs and I've never seen any type of true cause/effect relationship that anyone can point to. I've run recoil spring from 12 lbs to 22 lbs. and have even experimented with some variable rate springs (available for the BHP, which are a functional alternative). Everything I've read is guesswork, and my own comments below, are also guesswork.

Tanfoglio was the reigning champion of IPSC in Europe during the late 90s and early 2000's, and shooters there routinely changed slide stops for the T-guns at around 5000 rounds. There weren't enough CZs in the gun games then to know if they were any better or worse than the T-guns at eating (or not eating) slide stops. There was no mention of going to heavier or lighter recoil springs -- but some discussion of VERY LIGHT recoil springs used with buffers to increase slide velocity (which could lead to faster followup shots).

I've wondered whether (and at times argued that) increasing the weight of the recoil spring might have an opposite effect with the CZ-75 barrel. Because the barrel lug interacts with the slide stopy via a closed loop (kidney-bean shaped), and the extra force of a stronger recoil spring could apply extra force to the slide stop as the slide slams shut. I have no solid evidence for this, but it seems possible.

The newer CZ barrel designs tend to have open barrel lugs, so I don't know whether the original "kidney bean" opening was a problem if it is/was a problem in the first place -- or whether the change has has made the problem go away. I haven't heard much about broken slide stops for newer CZ barrel designs. Some of the newer CZ designs have gone to a SIG-type lockup approach, so they are subtly different (and there's no bottom part of the lug to cause damage, if it causes damage.)