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bac1023
September 1, 2018, 07:19 PM
I find myself posting mainly about German handguns, as they are my favorites. However, some nice stuff was built in Italy over the years as well. While they won’t match a Korth Auto or Korriphila HSP from a build quality perspective, they are still some very well made handguns. I’ll briefly describe each with a few sentences and also list some basic stats. I’ll also include my particular example’s build date.

Unfortunately, the only pistol in this thread that’s still being manufactured is the Pardini, but its appearance has changed.



Pardini GT9

Caliber: 9x19
Action: Single action only
Unloaded weight: 38.0oz
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Design: Locking block with tilting barrel
Date of manufacture: 2002 (BS)

The GT9 is the absolute smoothest pistol I own. Its incredibly slick with an extremely low bore axis, which allows it to point very naturally. The slide rides inside the frame, similar to a Sig P210 and CZ 75. Despite its aluminum frame, the GT9 weighs in at 38oz due to its thick barrel and slide. The ambi safety is perfectly weighted and the trigger is phenomenal. The Pardini is an easy pistol to shoot fast and well. Plus it looks cool as hell doing it. Without a doubt, it’s the best shooter of the bunch.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/tVKTZ4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pltVKTZ4j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/pHMgii.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnpHMgiij)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/jurqdb.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnjurqdbj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/Fe3mrt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poFe3mrtj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/eDKfi4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pneDKfi4j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/eDKfi4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pneDKfi4j)

bac1023
September 1, 2018, 07:20 PM
Benelli MP3S

Caliber: 9x19
Action: Single action only
Unloaded weight: 41.4oz
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Design: Lever delayed blowback
Date of manufacture: 1996 (AL)

The Benelli MP3S is a very rare target shooting variant of the still rare B76. This beautiful pistol is very unique in its operation, but shoots very well with its 5.5” fixed barrel and barrel weight. The high quality blued finish is a real pleasure to look at. Only a couple hundred were ever made, with only a small fraction of those imported to the States.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/vNKQpH.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnvNKQpHj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/pKexrK.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnpKexrKj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/N0Bi1A.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poN0Bi1Aj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/QtePA4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plQtePA4j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/FIkbcy.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmFIkbcyj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/1Uw6Yp.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn1Uw6Ypj)

bac1023
September 1, 2018, 07:21 PM
Delta AR Top Gun

Caliber: 45ACP
Action: Single action only
Unloaded weight: 42.8oz
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Design: Roller lock
Date of manufacture: 2003 (BT)

The Delta is definitely the highest quality pistol in this thread and probably the rarest. The design is that of a CZ 52, but stronger and infinitely more refined. The Delta is a heavy weight at just under 43oz empty. The trigger is adjustable in every way possible, but still can’t come close to matching the feel of the Pardini. The exotic looks are matched by a beautiful blued finish and high level of detail.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/OJ2e49.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plOJ2e49j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/y7vVxX.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ply7vVxXj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/ySLy8c.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmySLy8cj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/rPqNgd.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plrPqNgdj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/8HDzje.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn8HDzjej)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/fa6bA9.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnfa6bA9j)

bac1023
September 1, 2018, 07:22 PM
Beretta 92 Combat

Caliber: 9x19
Action: Single action only
Unloaded weight: 40.2oz
Frame: Aluminum
Slide: Steel
Design: Falling block
Date of manufacture: 2001 (BP)

The 92 Combat is very rarely seen in this country. Beretta didn’t build many of the Combat series and most of the examples imported were the 96 series in 40S&W. It features a barrel bushing to improve the accuracy and a frame mounted ambi safety. The trigger is good, but far from great. Despite its long sight radius, barrel weight and bushing, I find accuracy uninspiring.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/dHXJP2.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmdHXJP2j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/CukOW0.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmCukOW0j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/HcXiiA.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poHcXiiAj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/NNLkkh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnNNLkkhj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/irB8uZ.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poirB8uZj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/AZgMo1.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmAZgMo1j)

bac1023
September 1, 2018, 07:23 PM
Bernardelli Practical VB

Caliber: 9x19
Action: Single action only
Unloaded weight: 39.6oz
Frame: Steel
Slide: Steel
Design: Locked breech
Date of manufacture: 1994 (BD)

Like a couple others here, the The Practical VB is the target shooting of a service pistol. In this case, it’s the old Bernardelli P018. The VB has a very racy appearance with its barrel comp, large controls, sweeping beavertail, and magwell. Overall I find it a great shooter. Build quality isn’t bad, but definitely on the bottom of the list here. The VB is very seldom seen, especially outside of Italy.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/zLvkwz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmzLvkwzj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/YX9JT9.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plYX9JT9j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/sBdAgq.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmsBdAgqj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/72IaCa.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pl72IaCaj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/7cjPJk.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm7cjPJkj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/uWGsfp.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pouWGsfpj)

bac1023
September 1, 2018, 07:24 PM
So there you have it. We have five super rare pistols with similar purposes from the same country and generally built during the same time period. I find it fascinating that they all use different designs in an attempt to produce similar results. There’s even a blowback in there.



https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/GxKmhA.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poGxKmhAj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/xNp2HI.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmxNp2HIj)



Hope you enjoyed the short read about these sexy Italian exotics. :)

Please let me know what you think.


:cool:

JERRYS.
September 1, 2018, 07:34 PM
sweet collection!

dakota.potts
September 1, 2018, 07:54 PM
Your handgun collection is at once inspiring and envy-making.

IF you were to field strip or detail strip them, I believe some video footage of the inner workings of some of these rarely seen guns would be quite valuable to the community at large.

Thank you for sharing

JMag1
September 1, 2018, 08:36 PM
Very nice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

saleen322
September 1, 2018, 08:39 PM
bac1023 thank you for sharing pictures of your collection. It is always a pleasure to see them.

Some years ago there was an old time hardware store that way back dealt in target guns. They no longer sold new guns but they would get some interesting trades in. I stopped one day and the sales clerk said they had a target pistol but it was a 32, not a 22. It was a Benelli MP3S with just one magazine. Since there was just the one mag they sold it for as I recall about $300. I bought the pistol and every gun show I went to afterwards I was looking for magazines knowing how rare they are. So I go to a show in Allentown and there was this sort of grumpy guy who was known for odd stuff and stiff prices. He asked what I was looking for and I told him something really odd, magazines for a MP3S. The guy looked me dead in the face and says, "A Benelli 32 SW target pistol and I thought I was going to die with them! But I want $30 each and won't take any less." We now have a Benelli MP3S and 3 magazines. :)

bac1023
September 1, 2018, 09:06 PM
bac1023 thank you for sharing pictures of your collection. It is always a pleasure to see them.

Some years ago there was an old time hardware store that way back dealt in target guns. They no longer sold new guns but they would get some interesting trades in. I stopped one day and the sales clerk said they had a target pistol but it was a 32, not a 22. It was a Benelli MP3S with just one magazine. Since there was just the one mag they sold it for as I recall about $300. I bought the pistol and every gun show I went to afterwards I was looking for magazines knowing how rare they are. So I go to a show in Allentown and there was this sort of grumpy guy who was known for odd stuff and stiff prices. He asked what I was looking for and I told him something really odd, magazines for a MP3S. The guy looked me dead in the face and says, "A Benelli 32 SW target pistol and I thought I was going to die with them! But I want $30 each and won't take any less." We now have a Benelli MP3S and 3 magazines.


Very cool

That's a rare find. These days they go for a ton of money these days on Gunbroker. While I sold a couple of my Benellis, I still kept my base B76 and my two MP3S models. The other one is in the 32 S&W Long that yours is.

Benelli only built them in two calibers. The 32 is much more common, but still very rare. The 9mm is damn near nonexistent, especially in this country. The 32 is a straight blowback design, so they differ slightly internally.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/oVypgx.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnoVypgxj)

Model12Win
September 1, 2018, 09:18 PM
Nice "eye-tay-yin" guns!! :D

kozak6
September 2, 2018, 01:57 AM
Wow! That's some seriously cool stuff!

At the last gun show, I saw either a Benelli or a Bernadelli auto. It wasn't in a race configuration, but it was about $600.

I was incredibly tempted, but I was shopping for something else, and the apparent impossibility of finding magazines (or parts or anything really) scared me off.

That Delta is absolutely crazy. I was under the impression that roller-locked recoil operation (not delayed blowback!) was limited to German LMG's and one single Czech pistol. But it isn't! On another forum I used to visit, it was discussed how disappointing it was that the Czechs never came up with an A2 version of the VZ.52 pistol. In retrospect, I find it absolutely crushing that they just recycled the CZ50 as the CZ70 instead.

Thanks for sharing those pictures. I just had to Google that Delta, and one of the first results was actually from this forum. Look at these outstanding pictures in this thread!
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563661

bac1023
September 2, 2018, 02:12 AM
Yes, the Delta is a roller lock. I never mentioned it being a blowback. The Benelli is a delayed blowback.

I’ve got a couple Deltas as well. My other one is nickel. Cool pistols, just extremely difficult to find and sell for big dollars if you do.

While I disagree with Lifesizepotato that they compare to a Korth Auto or Korriphila HSP from a quality standpoint, they are still quite possibly the finest handguns to ever come out of Italy.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/ijtcOr.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnijtcOrj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/l2LVnB.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnl2LVnBj)



The Korth and Korriphila are in a different league though.

:cool:

Jim Watson
September 2, 2018, 08:47 AM
kozak6, when bac gets into fine German pistols, you will also learn that the Korriphila HSP and H&K P9S are also roller action pistols.

The P9S doesn't look like much, Jeff Cooper opined that what the Germans saved with stamped sheet metal and plastic construction, they plowed back into the elaborate bolt head and barrel extension of the Vorgrimler design. But they are accurate shooters, the P9S Sport in particular.

T. O'Heir
September 2, 2018, 11:42 AM
"...appearance has changed..." Jazzed up with target style grips. Changes more than the look though. Moves the centre of gravity of the thing back into your hand. Herrett's high priced target grips do the same thing. Have 'em on my Smith 41.
Hammerli is making high end target pistols as well. Lot of 'em are high end with high end prices.

Rinspeed
September 2, 2018, 12:00 PM
Awesome pics of some top shelf target pistols Brian. I just can't get that GT9 out of my head, talk about a world class pistol. Too bad the older ones are so hard to find. :(

bac1023
September 2, 2018, 12:46 PM
kozak6, when bac gets into fine German pistols, you will also learn that the Korriphila HSP and H&K P9S are also roller action pistols.

The P9S doesn't look like much, Jeff Cooper opined that what the Germans saved with stamped sheet metal and plastic construction, they plowed back into the elaborate bolt head and barrel extension of the Vorgrimler design. But they are accurate shooters, the P9S Sport in particular.

Jim,

Those are actually a bit different. The Korriphila and HK P9S are roller delayed blowback pistols. No locking at all.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/BpAZiB.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmBpAZiBj)



The Delta uses a roller lock like a CZ52.

Similar terminology, different in function.

rt11002003
September 2, 2018, 12:50 PM
WOW

bac1023
September 2, 2018, 05:32 PM
"...appearance has changed..." Jazzed up with target style grips. Changes more than the look though. Moves the centre of gravity of the thing back into your hand. Herrett's high priced target grips do the same thing. Have 'em on my Smith 41.
Hammerli is making high end target pistols as well. Lot of 'em are high end with high end prices.

Yes, I've had some Hammerlis. Truth be told, 22 and 32 pistols don't really do it for me though. I like my target pistols in 9mm and 45ACP.

I sold off a ton of rimfire and some small centerfire target pistols.

bac1023
September 2, 2018, 05:33 PM
Awesome pics of some top shelf target pistols Brian. I just can't get that GT9 out of my head, talk about a world class pistol. Too bad the older ones are so hard to find.

Thanks Jeff. Yes, the older Pardinis are hard to come by.

Its definitely the best shooter of the group here.

bac1023
September 2, 2018, 05:35 PM
Your handgun collection is at once inspiring and envy-making.

IF you were to field strip or detail strip them, I believe some video footage of the inner workings of some of these rarely seen guns would be quite valuable to the community at large.

Thank you for sharing

Thanks

Despite how rare they all are, the only models that are truly exotic from a design standpoint are the Benelli and Delta. The Pardini, Bernardelli, and Beretta are much more common from a design and function standpoint.

luger fan
September 2, 2018, 07:37 PM
Fantastic collection. I remember the VB being sold here in the 1980's. I wanted one but the price kept me away. I THINK I remember it had an 18-19 round mag.

libiglou
September 3, 2018, 11:49 AM
Bac

I love your collection. Those pistols are truly a work of art. I'm curious as to what you feed them when you shoot. Is there certain ammo that brings out the accuracy of these pistols? Thanks and keep the photos coming. If I ever win the lottery I know what I'm doing.

bac1023
September 5, 2018, 11:17 AM
Actually they eat anything, as long as it’s brass or aluminum. I’d obviously never shoot steel ammo through them or anything, for that matter.

HisSoldier
September 8, 2018, 12:42 AM
The Benelli lock design (inertial, that being, as the frame/barrel is recoiling the slide is resisting said recoil, and that inertia force presses the locking flap down into it's locked position until the slide "Catches up".) is very interesting and works independent of the barrel or frame, the entire locking design is at the rear occupying a very small space.

That design, the Benelli Inertial lock, is truly beautiful, one of those ideas that makes one feel like "I wish I'd thought that one up".

Their shotgun inertial locks work on a slightly different concept, it still uses inertial forces to time the unlocking but I seem to remember it being rotary or something, but they seem to have had the principle in mind for a while at least.
The only downside to the B series pistols is the use of stamped steel shells welded together for the frame, but at least they did it in such a way that it doesn't look cheap like so many such cheap processes look. The .30 Parabellum pistol is convertible to 9MM with just a barrel change, though it's a bit involved.

tipoc
September 8, 2018, 01:29 AM
Very nice!

tipoc

bac1023
September 8, 2018, 05:47 AM
The Benelli lock design (inertial, that being, as the frame/barrel is recoiling the slide is resisting said recoil, and that inertia force presses the locking flap down into it's locked position until the slide "Catches up".) is very interesting and works independent of the barrel or frame, the entire locking design is at the rear occupying a very small space.

That design, the Benelli Inertial lock, is truly beautiful, one of those ideas that makes one feel like "I wish I'd thought that one up".

Their shotgun inertial locks work on a slightly different concept, it still uses inertial forces to time the unlocking but I seem to remember it being rotary or something, but they seem to have had the principle in mind for a while at least.
The only downside to the B series pistols is the use of stamped steel shells welded together for the frame, but at least they did it in such a way that it doesn't look cheap like so many such cheap processes look. The .30 Parabellum pistol is convertible to 9MM with just a barrel change, though it's a bit involved.

Yeah they make it sound fancy and it’s certainly a cool design. In reality nothing really “locks”. The lever just delays the blowback a bit.

And, yes, the frame is a shell much like a Ruger Mark Series pistol. Frame aside, the Benellis are high quality handguns.

HisSoldier
September 9, 2018, 12:37 AM
Bac123,
There is a question I've had many times about "Locked breech" vs "Delayed blowback", but only with some designs. The Benelli is one of them.

I know they call delayed blowback, but as long as that flap in the Benelli action is pushing the bolt down into the recces, it's locked. It's locked based upon a given amount of pressure vectored down based on certain reactive ballistic inertia, so that if the velocity is raised the lock up remains until the pressure is relieved. When the breech opens there is not enough pressure remaining from the case pushing back to cycle the slide, it's the velocity of the slide before opening that cycles the slide, just exactly as it is in the 1911.

Anything that keeps the breech closed until the bullet is out of the barrel and the pressure has dropped does the same thing, and that time allows higher pressures to be used by time limiting the remaining pressure that the withdrawing case walls have to withstand without support.

This is just me perhaps, but if a mechanism keeps the breech closed until that time what's the difference? If the breech cannot open until the pressure is low enough it's locked in my opinion.

There is no "Blowback" forces involved in cycling either. The cartridge case blowing the breech back acting like a piston (as in a true blowback) does not exist in this design, as by the time the breech begins to open there is little pressure left. In that regard it is the same as a 1911, both use the inertia of the recoiling masses of the slide to extract the empty case and cycle the action.

The only way I can justify looking at a true locked breech action differently is in that increasing pressure without allowing the slide to move back on the frame would eventually have to shear the locking ribs to open. A blowback will open even with the slide clamped in a vise, and a Benelli would too as long as the gun is not allowed to recoil.

If it recoils it is locked.

HisSoldier
September 9, 2018, 12:44 AM
Correction to the above, "If it recoils it is locked.", is only true as long as the recoil of a Benelli pistol is accelerating, as when the bullet is still accelerating down the bore. Once it leaves the bore recoil acceleration stops and the bolt is unlocked.

bac1023
September 9, 2018, 07:13 AM
Bac123,
There is a question I've had many times about "Locked breech" vs "Delayed blowback", but only with some designs. The Benelli is one of them.

I know they call delayed blowback, but as long as that flap in the Benelli action is pushing the bolt down into the recces, it's locked. It's locked based upon a given amount of pressure vectored down based on certain reactive ballistic inertia, so that if the velocity is raised the lock up remains until the pressure is relieved. When the breech opens there is not enough pressure remaining from the case pushing back to cycle the slide, it's the velocity of the slide before opening that cycles the slide, just exactly as it is in the 1911.

Anything that keeps the breech closed until the bullet is out of the barrel and the pressure has dropped does the same thing, and that time allows higher pressures to be used by time limiting the remaining pressure that the withdrawing case walls have to withstand without support.

This is just me perhaps, but if a mechanism keeps the breech closed until that time what's the difference? If the breech cannot open until the pressure is low enough it's locked in my opinion.

There is no "Blowback" forces involved in cycling either. The cartridge case blowing the breech back acting like a piston (as in a true blowback) does not exist in this design, as by the time the breech begins to open there is little pressure left. In that regard it is the same as a 1911, both use the inertia of the recoiling masses of the slide to extract the empty case and cycle the action.

The only way I can justify looking at a true locked breech action differently is in that increasing pressure without allowing the slide to move back on the frame would eventually have to shear the locking ribs to open. A blowback will open even with the slide clamped in a vise, and a Benelli would too as long as the gun is not allowed to recoil.

If it recoils it is locked.

I hear what you're saying with the lever during the blowback process. Its still a blowback. When you manually pull the slide back, the slide and barrel immediately separate. There is no locking point at the start, which is totally different from a locked breech. That was my point.

Several delay designs essentially "lock up" during recoil. The Korriphila HSP has a similar effect with its roller, but its still a blowback gun.

HisSoldier
September 11, 2018, 03:28 AM
I hear what you're saying with the lever during the blowback process. Its still a blowback.
Not if the term blowback means that the case moving rearward while the bullet is accelerating down the bore, which case movement is acting as a piston to push the slide back for cycling. The breech in a Benelli is closed tight until rearward acceleration stops, beyond which point the extractor pulls the case out. In a true blow back an extractor isn't even needed theoretically. In the benelli or the 1911 an extractor is mandatory because there isn't enough pressure in the breech left to push the case out after opening. (In theory, but in reality there is some pressure still unvented)

A "Case" in point, a .22 Ruger pistol when it fires, as the bullet is traveling down the bore the bolt is opening because the case is pushing it back like a piston. The pistol relies on the reduced power of it's cartridge (lower pressure) to keep from blowing the sides out of that moving case.
The 1911's slide movement in recoil acts to unlock the breech after the bullet has left, but in theory using a long enough barrel with slow enough powder could open the breech while lots of pressure remains. The Benelli on the other hand cannot unlock until bullet acceleration has ceased, so in that imaginary situation it is an even more secure lock than the 1911.
You could call it a hesitation lock, but it's not a blowback.

bac1023
September 11, 2018, 07:21 AM
Not if the term blowback means that the case moving rearward while the bullet is accelerating down the bore, which case movement is acting as a piston to push the slide back for cycling. The breech in a Benelli is closed tight until rearward aceleration stops, beyong which point the extractor pulls the case out. In a true blow back an extractor isn't even needed theoretically. In the benelli or the 1911 an extractor is mandatory because there isn't enough pressure in the breech left to push the case out after opening. (In theory, but in reality there is some pressure still unvented)

A "Case" in point, a .22 Ruger pistol when it fires, as the bullet is traveling down the bore the bolt is opening because the case is pushing it back like a piston. The pistol relies on the reduced power of it's cartridge (lower pressure) to keep from blowing the sides out of that moving case.
The 1911's slide movement in recoil acts to unlock the breech after the bullet has left, but in theory using a long enough barrel with slow enough powder could open the breech while lots of pressure remains. The Benelli on the other hand cannot unlock until bullet acceleration has ceased, so in that imaginary situation it is an even more secure lock than the 1911.
You could call it a hesitation lock, but it's not a blowback.

I guess people can call it what they want. To me, its a blowback due to no initial locking mechcanism that works whether the gun is fired or not. Its the blowback action that locks in the lever in the first place.

Every publication and book I've read or video I've watched describes the B76 as a delayed blowback pistol. Even Wiki does. In fact, the B77 and the 32 Long MP3S work as straight blowbacks without the lever.

I realize what you're saying, but to me a locked breech is readily apparent the moment you pull the slide back, whether it's a typical Browning link or cam design, a Walther designed falling block, a CZ roller lock etc. None of these need to be fired for a blowback force to lock anything into place. Granted the Benelli design is cool and unique, but its most definitely a blowback in my book. I'm certainly not alone in saying that.

Its all cool though and I appreciate your insight.

Jim Watson
September 11, 2018, 08:08 AM
I think it was Donald Simmons who tested for lockup by putting a cleaning rod down the barrel against the breechface, holding the gun by the butt, and pushing. A locked breech will not open, blowback will. Delayed blowback will. I think he said the Benelli would open that way.
You have the collection, let us know which moves and which doesn't.

bac1023
September 11, 2018, 12:33 PM
I think it was Donald Simmons who tested for lockup by putting a cleaning rod down the barrel against the breechface, holding the gun by the butt, and pushing. A locked breech will not open, blowback will. Delayed blowback will. I think he said the Benelli would open that way.
You have the collection, let us know which moves and which doesn't.

It opens fine. I just tried it with my B76.

Honestly, I think a locked breech will also though.

Jim Watson
September 11, 2018, 03:16 PM
Tried it on a 1911, went right back. So much for that theory.

HisSoldier
September 12, 2018, 03:34 AM
I think it was Donald Simmons who tested for lockup by putting a cleaning rod down the barrel against the breechface, holding the gun by the butt, and pushing.
You my be referring to the youtube video I saw where the guy "Tested" 4 different action types. His holding the grip and pushing a rod down the bore left out the real life part that the Benelli uses to lock the breech shut. The slide has to be exerting pressure in the pivoting link to hold the breech block down into it's locking surface, without having a third hand pulling the slide forward it proves nothing.
And yes bac1023, blowback always means to me that the cartridge case is acting as a piston to push the breech back while the bullet is traveling down the bore, which does not happen with the inertial lock. All pistols except a few gas operated ones rely on the gun blowing back, so by your definition they are all blowbacks. If we can agree that a Colt 1908 .380 uses the cartridge case pushing (Moving like a piston) back the breech to cycle the slide then we'll be able to see why a Benelli isn't a blowback anymore than a 1911 is.
In a Remington action video I saw a commentator suggested that the short rearward movement of the case to the rear, which then stops the breech momentarily, acts like a short stroke tappet ala M1 Carbine, but that short case movement is pure blowback! The video was trying to say the 51 was better locked than most other locked breech pistols, but in fact the partially extended case is unsupported much more than any locked breech gun.
As far as what Wiki says I couldn't care less, but here's what I read there; "First manufactured in 1976, the Benelli B76 is a locked-breech, fixed-barrel pistol, that works thanks to a unique "inertia lock" system, as explained in U.S. Patent 3,893,369. In this system, the gun has a bolt provided with ribs extending transversely to the bolt axis and adapted to engage in and disengage from corresponding mating grooves in the receiver, and a locking lever that links the bolt with the slide which acts as a bolt carrier. Upon firing, while the pistol recoils in the hand of the shooter, the inertia of the slide makes it maintain its position relative to the receiver, constraining the bolt ribs' motion in the corresponding grooves via the locking lever, and so keeping the breech positively locked. As soon as the recoil movement of the pistol in the hand of the shooter slows down." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_B76)

Benelli calls it an hesitation lock I think.

bac1023
September 12, 2018, 05:34 AM
Wiki descriptions are always off. Look at the spec they list. They at least get that from credible sources. It’s listed as lever delayed blowback, just like every publication I own that talks about the design.

You can call it whatever you want. To me, it’s a blowback. There is no locking that isn’t initiated during the firing process. To me a locked breech locks together the slide and barrel whether the gun is fired or not. Pulling back the slide and the two are together for a short distance.

The B76 is a fixed barrel delayed blowback.

http://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/italy-semi-automatic-pistols/benelli-b76-eng/

bac1023
September 12, 2018, 07:36 AM
While I'm at it, here is a sampling of some other delayed 9mm and 45ACP blowbacks from my collection.

AJ Ordnance Thomas (lever)
HK P7M13 (gas)
Astra 600 - actually this a straight blowback. Stuck it in the pic by mistake
Steyr GB (gas)
HK P9S (roller)
Korriphila HSP (roller)
MAB PA-15 (rotating barrel)



https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/6i21zF.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pl6i21zFj)

Jim Watson
September 12, 2018, 10:01 PM
in fact the partially extended case is unsupported much more than any locked breech gun.

In the PA 51, the case is "partially extended" only for the thickness of the .380 case head, so there is no unsupported sidewall.
See also Tanfoglio FAR.