Carry Gun Triggers & Accuracy

[dreaming]

I am thinking of getting a small, perhaps a micro, pistol for edc I already have a 9 mm Sig P229 compact size gun that is a nail driver. It is a bit large to conceal in many Southern California situations and I may replace it with the slightly smaller Sig P39 9 mm, but that is another story since regardless I want a micro size EDC to augment either the P229 or the P239.

I am very interested in the just announced but yet to be available Sig P365 as it is something similar to a G43 but done (hopefully) per Sig standards and quality. One concern of mine is it, like the G43, has a striker action but no external safety. If I wanted Glock leg I would buy a Glock. Alternatively I am thinking about the Sig P230RS, which is a tiny little thing striker gun also with no external safety but a 9 pound DA like trigger. The Sig P 365 supposedly has more like a 5+ pound trigger similar to a G43's 5.5 lb trigger.

My question for comments is given this is for defense purposes, in which case if ever actually needed I will likely be stoked on adrenalin, do you think a half decent shooter ( and I think I am decent but no operator) may be better off with the long heavier DA trigger (think NYPD Glock) or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger? Thanks.

[TunnelRat]

If I wanted Glock leg I would buy a Glock.

Yes because we should all judge an entire design based on those that use it negligently.

[PeteH]

I personally don't think there is a happy medium.
You either go DA with one in the pipe and decocked or striker ready to go.
I like the comfort of option one but am just as happy with option two.
Get the right holster and plenty of practice.

[James K]

Some folks seem to want target triggers for defense guns. I will point out that I have never shot at anyone, though I was a LEO for some years. The advice I received from folks who should know is to chose a heavy trigger over a light one. When in a tight situation, you do not want shots going off accidentally. YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight.

Generally, the law does not look too closely at the gun used in self defense, but one area the police do look at is the trigger pull weight and any tampering with the gun to make the pull lighter. (FYI, I just checked the pull on the 1911A1 I carried for a while and it is 7 pounds, something I never considered too heavy.

Jim

[TunnelRat]

YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight.


Right, but we're talking a stock unmodified trigger of 5.5 lb vs. a stock unmodified trigger of 9 lb., not quite the same.

[rodfac]

better off with the long heavier DA trigger (think NYPD Glock) or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger? Yep...in spades. The stock trigger on any Sig DA/SA that I've handled is fine for concealed carry purposes. It's been my impression that Sigs are remarkably consistent in trigger pull, at least in the dozen or so that I've shot.But here's Sigs advert from their web site: The P365 is striker-fired, with the clean crisp trigger pull you expect from a SIG. It's striker fired, but based on their previous offerings, I'd expect they'll put a good/excellent trigger in this new mode for them.

YMMV, Rod

[cw308]

Just like a hunting rifle ,you would want a benchrest trigger . When you have that 8 point buck in your sights you don't even think of your trigger . Just think of a situation with a concealed carry handgun and it's not in the middle of the woods . An accidental discharge is one thing you don't want .

[625TC]

In truth both guns the Glock or Sig would sever well. As to " Glock leg" don't blame the machine for the mistakes of the operator. I personally fall on the Glock side . I have carried various Glock models since the late 1980s and have never had an unintentional discharge or any other incident. Safe gun handling can not be replaced with modifications to the gun. The trigger pull weight in a way becomes irrelevant if you keep your finger off the trigger til time to shoot. I am not trying to come off as a smart a... but rather just point out that there is no substitute for safe gun handling and continued training.

[RickB]

I think that hitting anything with a handgun is a difficult-enough task, and I don't want a "safe" trigger preventing me from utilizing a handgun to my best abilities.
I'm a single action guy, accustomed to 3.25# - 3.75# triggers, and I prefer that on all of my guns.

In self-defense situations, there are a lot of things that you can do, prior to pulling the trigger, that I separate from the actual shooting task.
When it's time to shoot, if situational awareness, evasion, whatever, hasn't worked, then I don't want a crappy trigger between me and my ability to save my life, and/or the lives of loved ones.

Wrestling with a 9# trigger on a gun that weighs a pound, would not be something I'd choose.

[dahermit]

Some folks seem to want target triggers for defense guns. I will point out that I have never shot at anyone, though I was a LEO for some years. The advice I received from folks who should know is to chose a heavy trigger over a light one. When in a tight situation, you do not want shots going off accidentally. YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight. I am not too sure I want to go by a law inforcement person's perspective when it comes to an appropriately heavy trigger for service use considering that they have a very poor ratio of shots fired to actually hitting the perpetrator. That makes me consider that heavy service gun triggers just may be a factor in their poor shooting results. I practice with very light triggers and just hope that my unusual high round count (72 rounds 7 days a week...about 12,960 rounds, from May through October) for practice will result in muscle memory in the eventuality of having to discharge my gun in a defensive situation.

[TunnelRat]

I fall on both sides I guess. I have had a negligent discharge. It happened with a S&W 5903. That's a pistol that has a manual safety, a DA trigger pull, and a magazine disconnect. So how with all those devices did I have an ND? I assumed the pistol was unloaded when it wasn't. Now no one was hurt because I maintained the other safety rules, but it was a harsh experience. From that and other experience I feel that either a stock Glock or a stock DA/SA or safety equipped pistol is essentially equally safe. If a pistol is so safe that it could actually prevent you from operating it, i.e. a DA pull you can't master or a safety you forget to use, then that pistol will be of limited use in an actual self defense encounter. There is no system I know of that can stop a user from pressing a trigger once the user has made the decision to do so.

So do I then want a "light" trigger press? After years of shooting DA/SA pistols frankly a 5.5 lb. Glock trigger or similar does not feel heavy to me, nor do I find it hinders my ability to make hits. I've used a stock Glock trigger to make hits at 100 yds on IPSC plates. The trigger wasn't the limiting factor. I've also done a full day of force on force with UTM pistols. Now at the time I had been predominantly shooting Glocks. The only UTM pistols available to me were DA/SA P226s so that's what I had to use. During the entire day I never at one point felt, "Man this DA trigger pull is heavy." I have no memory of ever recognizing the weight of the trigger pull. I was lucky if I even got a sight picture or two hands on the pistol (most of it turned into one handed reflexive shooting, techniques that are very important).

Generally I keep triggers stock. I haven't really found a stock trigger that stopped me from being accurate and my experience indicates that the relatively minute differences people focus on don't materialize in actual use. For the OP I think any of the pistols mentioned can fill the role mentioned just fine.

I am not too sure I want to go by a law inforcement person's perspective when it comes to an appropriately heavy trigger for service use considering that they have a very poor ratio of shots fired to actually hitting the perpetrator.

In my limited force on force experience, accuracy is no where near as easy to achieve as on a timer or during a drill. I feel confident in saying that I am above the average shot, though I am no Miculek. I have passed police qual courses with ease and am generally on the heels of the SWAT and other response team guys in the courses I do. In one force on force scenario I and the assailant fired on each other in close quarters with a number of rounds discharged. We both missed each other. I would never, ever miss that shot otherwise. But even in the faux situation adrenaline was enough to mess me up. While I will say that in my experience the average firearms enthusiast is on par or better than the average police officer when it comes to shooting, it's hard to gauge how well you will shoot on even a fake two way range.

[BigJimP]

If you shoot one gun all the time ...you can get used to most any trigger...to some extent. But to me, a real heavy trigger or a real "sloppy trigger" with a lot of creep or slack in it ...drives me crazy ...vs what I prefer.

I don't think you're better off with a 9 or 10 lb trigger...but if you like the DA/SA trigger you have on the Sig 229, then having the same trigger mechanism on your carry gun makes the most sense to me. I don't know if you can transition easily to the Striker trigger in that new Sig or not.

I think your biggest challenge, even if you end up liking the stryker fired gun, is the size ( grip, etc), weight and sight plane causing you issues / so transitioning between a 229 -- to a 239 ---and then this new Sig ...might be a challenge / or at least it would be for me.

As you know, I'm a 1911 guy - and my primary range gun, my tactical training gun and my primary carry gun is a Wilson Combat full sized, 5", all stainless, 1911 in 9mm...( I shoot other guns at the range -- Sig 226's, Sig X-Five, 4" 1911's, some S&W Revolvers...for fun mostly )....but when I train tactically / I go back to the same Wilson Combat 1911 in 9mm ...with a very good 3.5 - 4.5 lb trigger../ mine is right at 4 lbs ( no creep, no slack, breaks like glass )...

At real close ranges ( out to 18 Feet or so )...transitioning, for me, to a 1911 in an alloy frame and say a 4" barrel ( a gun that feels way different than my 5" steel gun ) is easy to transition to ...but at 7 - 10 yds my accuracy drops off a little in rapid fire ...( its the same if I were to carry a Sig 239 ...again because of the weight, sight plane and DA/SA trigger ---- and to get over that, I would have to train with it).

If I were you, I would wait until a range near you has one of the new Sigs to rent...before you buy ( In Case you didn't know, Sig is no longer making the 239 model although right now there are a lot of them around ...they won't be around forever on the new market ).

[Danoobie]

IME, it's how you do, when you squeeze the trigger,
which one's accurate for you, you need to figure.
So bring all guns you want to try on down to the range,
avoiding all the triggers which should feel a little strange.

[Fishbed77]

Yes because we should all judge an entire design based on those that use it negligently

Agreed. Just as we should blame Ford Mustangs for all the crashes leaving Cars and Coffee.

[JDBerg]

IMHO, you don’t need a light trigger pull on a carry gun, just as long as it’s a smooth trigger pull.

[HighValleyRanch]

LOL, you're in southern california. Where are you going to find a new Sig 365??
Dream on.

[pblanc]

The S&W M&P Shield is a subcompact, striker-fired pistol available with an external manual safety that is quite popular. Mine is not the 2.0 version and the trigger pull is on the heavier side for striker-fired pistols, but overall the gun is pretty shootable.

[Cheapshooter]

In a self defense situation you are going to pull the trigger, and the gun is going to go bang. You will never notice, or remember what the trigger pull felt like.
Way too much concern over those "perfect" triggers on SD guns. It's not carefully aimed, precision shooting.

[Dufus]

I have had accidental doubles with my target 1911 in a controlled shoot.

I have never had any unintentional discharges with a striker fired pistol with a decently heavy trigger.

If I got in a gun fight with the target 1911, not telling what would get hit.

[hdwhit]

dreaming asked:
My question for comments is given this is for defense purposes, in which case if ever actually needed I will likely be stoked on adrenalin, do you think a half decent shooter may be better off with the long heavier DA trigger or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger?


It doesn't matter.

Get the gun that fits your hand and is the right size to readily conceal irrespective of the maker and then train with it regularly and exclusively.

You are correct that in a self-defense situation you are going to be distracted, frightened and your fight-or-flight response will be fully engaged. Your higher cognitive functions will be focused into what amounts to tunnel vision and your ability to comprehend new circumstances will be diminished. Your training and prior experience can still be followed, so whatever gun you have trained with most often and with which you are most experienced will be the gun you perform best with.

[jimbob86]

One gun. All the time, every time. Trigger pull should not be something one thinks about: it just is, because you've drilled it 10 thousand times before: Front Sight, Press. Repeat as Necessary.


If you keep rotating guns like you dress of different occasions and you create variables and uncertainty......dividing precious training time and ammo. Pick one and stick with it...... even it's tiny and not the latest and greatest: A well struck small blow in time beats a high powered miss a second too late, especially if one can repeat it several times in a second or two .....

[cw308]

In benchrest shooting , my rifle has a 10 ounces trigger , once you get use to shooting a 10 oz it's not so light just normal.

[TunnelRat]

In benchrest shooting , my rifle has a 10 ounces trigger , once you get use to shooting a 10 oz it's not so light just normal.

That may be, but there is no stock handgun trigger I know of that comes in at 10 oz. I'm not even aware of an aftermarket company that advertises going that low on a handgun, nor if that's well achievable while still having springs that would reliably function the pistol. You'd have to modify the heck out of the pistol and at that point I do think it would potentially be noticeable to an investigator. Will it matter in court? Maybe, maybe not. But why take that chance when at typical self defense ranges a stock trigger is certainly adequate? You're not talking taking a shot into the wind at hundreds of yards.

[dreaming]

All good thoughts. I doubt if anyone in California will have an opportunity to hold, much less shoot, a P365 for at least a year and then it will be difficult for cops. If you don't know our state government in its wisdom doesn't let us harm ourselves with unsafe handguns, which means we can't have the latest and safest designs. Still I may get an opportunity to check a p365 out on a trip out of state.

[cw308]

TunnelRat

I was talking benchrest 308 Cal. It's a Jewell trigger , and a benchrest rifle only. Not a handgun.

[TunnelRat]

Right, but what does that have to do with this thread? I took it as you saying very light triggers aren't an issue for a carry handgun, which is what this thread is about.

[cw308]

You brought up 10 ounces on a handgun , just didn't want you to think I was talking handgun . As far as light trigger on a SD carry firearm , I don't think it's a good idea . Target handgun used only for target shooting then yes , lighter is better . Talking accuracy in a carry gun , nothing better then shooting the gun , alot of range time.

[stephen426]

If I wanted Glock leg I would buy a Glock

Nice asinine statement there. I guess the million of people who carry Glocks on a daily basis (present company included) are just waiting for our turn.

With that out of the way, I believe that the trigger on a carry gun has to balanced between preventing accidental discharges (hair triggers) and not so heavy it prevents accurate shooting. I know that there are plenty of stats that claim armed encounters occurs at very close distances and only involve a few shots. I'm going ot prepare for above that and carry 2 spare mags and have an "improved trigger". I installed the Ghost Pro trigger on my GLock 43 and it is much smoother, slightly lighter, and have very little over travel. I use the Glock 43 for practical shooting (like PPC but not a competition) and the Ghost Pro is much easier to shoot well with.

I'm sure a case can be made if a full on competition gun with a hair trigger was used, but even then a justifiable shoot is a justifiable shoot.

[jad0110]

dreaming asked:
My question for comments is given this is for defense purposes, in which case if ever actually needed I will likely be stoked on adrenalin, do you think a half decent shooter may be better off with the long heavier DA trigger or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger?

Assuming one is a half way decent hand gunner with adequate trigger control, has a modicum of finger strength and doesn't have painful arthritis in the joints of the trigger finger, I find that trigger pull weight for me personally has no bearing on the accuracy potential of a handgun. Especially not "combat accuracy". As long as it is relatively clean with a decent break, I'm good with it. For instance, I actually like the trigger on my S&W SD9VE - it's a little mushy and a bit gritty, but it's alright. It's probably around 8 to 10 lbs, doesn't bother me in the slightest. And for a self defense gun, I prefer to keep it over 4 to 5 lbs anyway. Doesn't have to be perfect. I will say that a trigger with a jerky, rough break (regardless of pull weight) is difficult for me to shoot with any sort of accuracy. I'll take a clean S&W DA revolver trigger at 12 lbs (or even that "acceptable" SD9 trigger) over a crunchy, rough, entry level 6 lb 1911 trigger anytime.

[DT Guy]

I think that, to be even safer, we should shoot for a 14-18#, long trigger. That way we can press pretty hard on the trigger when we don't mean to shoot, and not have the gun go off.

:)

Larry

[rt11002003]

I use two pistols for carry, a Shield .45ACP and a SIG p232, depending on clothing. The one not on my person is in the car. Two entirely different systems. Before putting one in use, I do a lot of practice with it and then practice at least monthly afterward. My only requirement for a trigger on a carry gun is that it is smooth and that I have strength to pull it. A trigger I found noticeable, even though it was smooth, was on a HK Mark 23. In DA mode it would wear me out after 10, or so, rounds. Of course, it wasn't a carry gun for me. Obviously, I'm not an operator.

[jimbob86]

That way we can press pretty hard on the trigger when we don't mean to shoot, and not have the gun go off.


What happened to "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot?

There are only FOUR Rules.

It's not hard to remember them.

[DT Guy]

Notice the smiley???


Larry

[Sharkbite]

Notice the smiley???

Wait....SARCASM???? No way.

[DT Guy]

Yeah, every time somebody starts proposing that a heavy trigger is 'safer', I tend to go on a skreed regarding trigger discipline, and the concept that 'if you're touching the trigger when you don't want to fire, NO trigger is safe.'

Having done that a bunch of times, I finally just decided to be sarcastic and, hopefully, a bit funny.

Larry

[boatbum101]

Well I'm an old guy & i'm used to S&W revolvers & 1911 pistols . I've carried both for years , know them inside out . When I was younger weight didn't bother me & I'm large enough that a Gov't size 1911 , S&W K , L or N frame are concealable depending on season / dress . For me a handgun has to fit my hand , have a decent trigger , usable sights & reasonable accuracy . I'm fairly recoil tolerant & have carried 45acp , 357 SIG , 357 mag & 41 mag . With the new ammo I'm considering something in 9mm & physically smaller / lighter , but have yet to find something that suits me . Thing is that everything I like is the same size / weight of my old friends . Majority of the polymer pistols just don't fit my hand & have triggers you could pull a hog out of mudhole with . Been spoiled I guess as all my 1911's have 4.5lb triggers with no creep & S&W all have 3 1/2 lb SA & 8lb DA pulls that are glass smooth with no creep .

[BigJimP]

boatbum....Wilson Combat and others make a variety of 1911's in 9mm...

Wilson Combat has their new EDC models that might be attractive to you ...or their traditional models - something like their CQB Compact model in a 4"...or the Bill Wilson carry model in a 4" with an alloy frame...

My carry gun is a Wilson, Protector model ( old version without the rail), in a 5", all stainless, in 9mm....full size.../ ...don't give up on 1911's buddy !! ( there is no soul in the plastic wunder-whatever stuff ..).:D

[TunnelRat]

there is no soul in the plastic wunder-whatever stuff ..

Absolutely true. That's why I still have 1911s, Star pistols, K frame revolvers. That said, I don't care if my carry pistol has a soul. Of course it doesn't have to be an either or situation to be fair, but at the end of the day it's a tool. Certainly some polymer pistols with better triggers than others for those that are more discerning, but even my stock Glock hasn't hindered me.