Commander hammer

[rmocarsky]

I was wondering and for the life of me I can't figure out what purpose did/does the commander hammer on a 1911A1 serve over the traditional style hammer?

I figure it had to be for a purpose since our military did it.

Rmocarsky

[briandg]

So, here you go. It was reported by one of the really smart guys who write in gun magazines that it was designed for cavalry or horsback use, as the shooter could swipe the thing downward on his saddle to cock it.

Myself, I figure that it wass less likely to hang up on things.

[James K]

Since Colt's "commander" hammer did not come out until around 1960, I think any intention of use by cavalry would have been a bit late. Other pistols, e.g., the Radom, had that kind of hammer earlier supposedly so it could be cocked by rubbing the gun across the saddle. (The Poles found to their dismay that while they were worrying about horse cavalry cocking their pistols, the Germans were building tanks.)

Actually, the rounded top hammer was used by Browning early on and the very first .45 model, the 1905, had that type hammer; the U.S. military decided on the spur hammer so it could be more easily cocked when the pistol was held in one hand (the other being needed to control the horse).

Jim

[briandg]

guess we need to take that warning about information on the internet to the printed word.

Who would have imagined something that wasn't right being actually printed?

[KyJim]

I always just thought it was used to reduce hammer bite.

[Ed4032]

Me too

[rkbanet]

The commander hammer helps to prevent hammer bite. It is only recently that some military M1911 pistol have been outfitted with one.

[Rob228]

The commander hammer helps to prevent hammer bite. It is only recently that some military M1911 pistol have been outfitted with one.

This got me thinking. I honestly cannot remember if my MEUSOC 1911 had one or didn't, and I can't find any pictures that show the hammer. What I do remember about that little gem, was despite the fact that it was a great shooter, whoever the guy was at PWS that fitted the beavertail didn't blend it very well and my hand was a bleeding mess at the end of every 600 round day during our 6 week shooting course. Can't remember anything about the hammer though.

[claydoctor]

In 1949,the original Commander, now known as the Lightweight Commander, was developed to participate in Army trials to replace the standard 1911. A lighter, more compact version was desired. I do not know for a fact but always assumed, that the rowel or circular hammer served the same purpose as the lanyard loop on earlier 1911's, to prevent the gun from being separated from the user during combat .

[Bill DeShivs]

You can't use the hole in the hammer for a lanyard.
Think about it.

[ocharry]

Lmao....hole in the hammer for a lanyard....lol..lol..

That is a good one right there...lol

Ocharry

[RickB]

Well, actually, you can, just not for retaining the gun on your person.
Old army manuals described marksmanship practice with the instructor installing a lanyard on the hammer, standing behind the shooter to observe sight alignment as the hammer fell, then jerking the lanyard to re-cock the hammer.

On a different note, I get a chuckle out of commander hammers being called "combat hammers", when 99.9% of 1911s that have seen combat were wearing spur hammers.

[Aguila Blanca]

On a different note, I get a chuckle out of commander hammers being called "combat hammers", when 99.9% of 1911s that have seen combat were wearing spur hammers.
I have the same reaction when I read about modern sights that are called "combat" sights. As if the originals weren't for combat?

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. There was a recent discussion over on the M1911.org forum in which someone commented that he had some kind of problem with an extended slide stop, so he chopped off the extension. Someone asked why he didn't just install a standard slide stop, and someone else retorted that an extended slide stop was standard on that model. :rolleyes:

Words are supposed to be our medium of communication, but sometimes they seem to do a lousy job of it.

[James K]

Hammer bite with the 1911 was was reduced a lot with the adoption of the M1911A1 (c. 1927), which has a longer tang on the grip safety and a medium length hammer spur. The worst combination was the old long spur hammer and the short tang, a combination that drew blood from more than one "cruit" in the WWI era.

I suspect that at least part of the reason for the rowel hammer spur in the Commander was the rather stiff recoil of the alloy frame pistol, even in 9mm.

Jim

[Tactical Jackalope]

Okay, I love this thread. I literally laughed out loud at the lanyard comment.

I like the commander hammer second best. The "combat" hammer is by far my favorite and seems to be on most modern production pistols.

[polaris joe]

Why would there be any sort of hammer spur on the 1911 if it was intended to be carried cocked and locked ONLY as some claim?

[T. O'Heir]

"...since our military did it..." HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. The military does everything in a certain way because that's the way they've always done it. The military gets very little say regarding what kit they will be issued too.
Installing a lanyard on the hammer even in training will stop the hammer from falling properly. Assuming the lanyard itself is being used correctly. That as a quasi stock for stabilizing the pistol and the other end looped around one shoulder like a proper cavalry officer would have it. That's how cavalry kept from dropping the thing. The PBI can just pick the thing up. snicker.
The round hammer helps keep the pistol from getting hung up on clothing while drawing and reduces the hammer bite.

[Aguila Blanca]

I like the commander hammer second best. The "combat" hammer is by far my favorite and seems to be on most modern production pistols.
???

What do you consider to be the "combat" hammer? To me, the hammer that was used on the original M1911, and the flat-side version used on the later M1911A1s, both of which saw actual combat with military forces, are what should be referred to as combat hammers, and you don't see those on very many modern 1911s. Certainly not on "most" modern production pistols.

[dogtown tom]

RickB ...On a different note, I get a chuckle out of commander hammers being called "combat hammers", when 99.9% of 1911s that have seen combat were wearing spur hammers.
And I do a belly laugh when someone refers to a ring hammer on a FN Hi Power as a "commander" hammer. :D

[James K]

The M1911/A1 was NEVER carried cocked and locked in military service, except possibly during a momentary cease fire or to make the pistol safe while controlling the horse. Other than that, the pistol was always carried with the hammer down and chamber empty. That may seem odd for those whose idea of gun carry was formed by cowboy movies, but war is not a fast-draw contest; when a soldier was going to be involved in close combat, he darned well knew it and the place for the pistol was in his hand, not in a holster.

Jim

[Aguila Blanca]

Why would there be any sort of hammer spur on the 1911 if it was intended to be carried cocked and locked ONLY as some claim?
The M1911 wasn't intended to be carried cocked and locked. It was intended to be carried with the hammer down most of the time, and cocked and locked only when enemy action was "imminent."

[RickB]

It was also intended to be handled with one hand while your other hand handled the horse, but does anyone today argue you can't shoot a 1911 with two hands for that reason?

[Tactical Jackalope]

What do you consider to be the "combat" hammer? To me, the hammer that was used on the original M1911, and the flat-side version used on the later M1911A1s, both of which saw actual combat with military forces, are what should be referred to as combat hammers, and you don't see those on very many modern 1911s. Certainly not on "most" modern production pistols.

I've seen it marketed as "combat" hammer and "skeletized" as well. This one.

Combat / Skeletized Hammer (https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/876/876292.jpg)

Commnder Hammer (https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/137/137959.jpg)

[Aguila Blanca]

I've seen it marketed as "combat" hammer and "skeletized" as well. This one.

Combat / Skeletized Hammer

I thought you might have that one in mind. It's nothing but a Commander hammer with an elongated hole. Since it has never been used in real combat on any official basis by any country's armed forces, I remain of the opinion that it can't be called a "combat" hammer.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I thought you might have that one in mind. It's nothing but a Commander hammer with an elongated hole. Since it has never been used in real combat on any official basis by any country's armed forces, I remain of the opinion that it can't be called a "combat" hammer.

Ahh. Okay. Gotcha. Thanks for that. So it's just called a skeletalized hammer then, right?

[SIGSHR]

It would be nice to see documentation or testimony from a member of the design team. The Browning HP originally had the "Commander" hammer. I was told the drill for cocking the Radom for combat was the Polish cavalryman was to "wipe it" down the side of his trousers. I note more recent Browning HPs have the older style M1911 hammer.

[tipoc]

Commander hammer
I was wondering and for the life of me I can't figure out what purpose did/does the commander hammer on a 1911A1 serve over the traditional style hammer?

I figure it had to be for a purpose since our military did it.

Rmocarsky

The 1911 and 1911A1 always and only had spur hammers. Whether they were made by Colt, USS, Remington Rand, etc. as a military sidearm the military in the U.S. wanted a spur hammer. The originals were wide and checkered. Similar, in ways, to the hammers on the Colt Single Action Army and their da revolvers. During WWII to save time in production, these were narrowed and left flat sided and became serrated rather than checkered.

The Army wanted a spur hammer on their pistols. They decided this early on in the 1890s as the U.S. began a search for a semi auto handgun for the first time. Colt and Browning offered them other options but they went with the spur hammer. They were used to spur hammers and they were easier to cock and de-cock for them, so they figured. This despite that they almost adopted the Luger and it's hammerless toggle link design.

In 1949 Colt first placed a rounded hammer on the gun when they introduced the Colt Commander. The military had not asked for a rounded hammer but Colt figured it reduced weight a tiny bit and they had substantial feedback and experience and figured it would be better on this gun.

The pics below show two Commanders from 1949 and 1950 with their original hammers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/2com1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tipoc/media/2com1.jpg.html)

The Commander was never adopted by the U.S. military.

All rounded hammers after this on 1911's acquired the name "Commander" hammer simply because Colt was the first to make a 1911 in this size and with a rounded hammer. Rounded hammers in general on pistols began to be called "Commander Style" at least in the U.S.

From the 1890s on pistols were made with both spur and rounded hammers. It was mostly a matter of what an army wanted or the makers opinion of what the gun's purpose was that decided the difference.

For example, when Colt offered the Browning designed Model 1900 military model to the U.S. Army it had a spur hammer like this M 1902 does...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/Colt%20Pocket%20Hammer/mil6_zpsff5b52f6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tipoc/media/Colt%20Pocket%20Hammer/mil6_zpsff5b52f6.jpg.html)

A year later Colt offered the Browning M1903 Pocket Hammerless in 38acp to the commercial market and it had a round hammer. It was for pocket carry...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/Colt%20Pocket%20Hammer/colt22.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tipoc/media/Colt%20Pocket%20Hammer/colt22.jpg.html)

The hole in the Commander hammer was to reduce weight and not for strings to go through.

The original Mauser pistol had a rounded hammer. etc.

tipoc

[Dave T]

The originals were wide and checkered. Similar, in ways, to the hammers on the Colt Single Action Army...

In quite a few years of studying, owning, and reading about the Single Action Army I have never seen any reference to it being offered with a wide spur hammer. Custom ones may have been added by gunsmiths and blacksmiths but Colt never sold one that way.

Dave

[James K]

Just FYI, the target hammer on the Bisley model Single Action had a wider spur than the standard hammer.

But the hammer spur of the auto pistol was not that critical. It was pretty much assumed that if/when the pistol was to be used, the soldier would have enough warning to work the slide, loading the chamber and cocking the hammer. That remained the military philosophy throughout the service life span of the .45 pistol.

Part of the reason for the rowel hammer on the Commander was probably that the smaller and lighter pistol recoiled more and a spur hammer would be more likely to damage the shooter's hand. Also, it just plain looks better on the shorter pistol.

Jim

[tipoc]

In quite a few years of studying, owning, and reading about the Single Action Army I have never seen any reference to it being offered with a wide spur hammer. Custom ones may have been added by gunsmiths and blacksmiths but Colt never sold one that way.

You misunderstood or perhaps I was not clear enough. The original hammer on the 1911 was wide and checkered compared to later versions of the hammer that began during WWII. I meant that these spur hammers were closer in look and design to the spur hammers on wheelguns which the U.S. military was familiar with.

I assume you are also familiar with the variety of shapes that Colt, and others, placed on their wheelguns. That's all.

Remember the U.S. never adopted the Commander as a service sidearm so it never had an opinion on which hammer type was more "combat" over the other.

The M9, which replaced the 1911 in U.S. service did and does have a rounded hammer. But I don't think a spur hammer was ever offered on the Beretta 92.

Consider that Browning designed and installed several types of hammers on his gun over the years.

Look at the Walther P38 with it's spur hammer.

Look at the rounded hammer of the Radom Vis, of the early BHP, of the Walther PP and PPK, Tokarov etc.

So there is not a whit of evidence to suggest that one type of hammer was inherently better as a "combat" hammer than another. It's more a factor of design and fulfilling an order to an armies specs. (You can bet that the hammer on the Radom was better to pull out from under a heavy coat than a 1911.)

Nowdays calling a hammer a "Combat" hammer is mostly marketing.

tipoc

[James K]

The change to the narrow hammer in the WWII era was solely because the narrow hammer was cheaper and quicker to make.

Jim