Important point nobody mentions in the CZ guns Decocker vs Safety issue

[Bachá]

Well... I researching the "decocker vs safety" thing on the CZ guns discovered the following:

If you read the RAMI´s manual on page 5 you can find the safety features of the gun:

http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/cz2075_en.pdf

I also found this thread in another forum:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=54677.0

Where CZTom says:

"CZ factory gunsmith recommended that I carry with hammer in half-cocked position rather than hammer full-down position. He said, half-cocked safety is stronger than the safety in the full-down position. If dropped, etc., both safeties would have to fail if carried in the half-cocked position, rather than only one (the weaker one) if carried hammer full-down. Also, half-cocked safety was designed to be strong enough to stop a moving hammer that had "slipped" out from under your thumb (if trigger is still not pulled). I did not ask about the fully-cocked hammer position."

So this almost make me wonder why decocker versions exists...let me tell you why. If you have a decocker model when you do use the decocker the hammer goes to half cocked position. Why? where... if you read carefully in the half cocked position there are 3 safeties preventing the gun to be discharged unless the trigger is pulled... if the gun is fully decocked there are only 2, and according the CZ factory gunsmith mentioned, the half cocked safety is stronger than the other 2... which makes sense because it is designed to stop the hammer from hitting the firing pin in case you are manually cocking the hammer and it slips from your hand/thumb. So even is the hammer goes off from the almost cocked position unless the trigger is depressed the gun will not fire...

So...This solves my fear of buying a 2075 safety only, because it is very safe to manually decock the gun if you chamber a round, hold the hammer (or better yet put the thumb between the hammer and the firing pin), press the trigger (the hammer will be released), RELEASE the hammer, and then let the hammer gently go to the half cocked position.... this way if the hammer slipped off your finger the "Safety Stop on the Hammer" (CZ calls it that) would prevent the gun from firing.

The crucial part is not having the trigger depressed while decocking, just press the trigger to release the hammer and then release the trigger. If you keep the trigger pressed then there is nothing preventing the gun to go off if the hammer were to slip off your fingers...Like anything else this is not an excuse to be careless but good to know for peace of mind...

So this is my "theorical experiment" based on what I read but would love if any of you guys with CZ guns experts could confirm this...

[RickB]

Don't most CZs have a firing pin block? That is, even if the hammer reaches the firing pin, the pin won't move if the trigger hasn't been pulled.

[Bachá]

Don't most CZs have a firing pin block? That is, even if the hammer reaches the firing pin, the pin won't move if the trigger hasn't been pulled.

Yeah... for what I understand that is one of the 3 safeties that I talked about in the first post.

But As I said is the crucial step is releasing the trigger... if the trigger is depressed all the safeties are disengaged.

Nobody seems to mention this so wanted to open a thread for future reference when people search. Plus many videos online on "how to safely decock a CZ" talk about having the trigger depressed all the time, which is needed if you want the gun to be fully decocked.

[RickB]

I run into this in competition, where the rules require that the hammer be manually lowered all the way, which means you're holding the trigger back as the hammer is lowered.
Of course, if the gun were dropped or dislodged from your grip, the half-cock and other safeties would again come into play as the trigger was released.

[Bachá]

I run into this in competition, where the rules require that the hammer be manually lowered all the way, which means you're holding the trigger back as the hammer is lowered.

Another important distinction nobody seems to make... for carrying it is in fact safer to carry half cocked. But in competition you are forced to fully decock the gun right?

Of course, if the gun were dropped or dislodged from your grip, the half-cock and other safeties would again come into play as the trigger was released.

But if you had the trigger depressed and the hammer slipped off your fingers the gun would fire right?

And this is what made me nervous about thinking a CZ without decocker. Unless I am in competition (an I am not... yet :cool:) it is better for me to carry half cocked and much safer to half decock than fully decock

[sigarms228]

But if you had the trigger depressed and the hammer slipped off your fingers the gun would fire right?

Absolutely. CZ sells decocker models of most of their popular pistols.

There was a fellow posting on another forum a couple months back that admitted he unintentionally put a bullet through his bathroom wall trying to manually decock his CZ.

Manual decocking is not something I ever want to do and goes against all safety practices drilled into our heads. If I HAD to manually decock a loaded CZ at home it would be in the basement with the muzzle end pointed into a five gallon bucket full of sand.

[RickB]

Of course, if the gun were dropped or dislodged from your grip, the half-cock and other safeties would again come into play as the trigger was released.

But if you had the trigger depressed and the hammer slipped off your fingers the gun would fire right?

My point was that no safeties are in effect when the trigger is being pulled, yes.
It's interesting that the same shooting sport that requires lowering the hammer all the way, when it would be safer to release the trigger and allow the hammer to only half-cock, requires that grip safeties be active in pistols so equipped; disengaging all the safeties so that you can manually control the dropping of the hammer seems a lot more of a safety issue than a grip safety which is automatically deactivated any time you're holding the gun in your hand.

[marine6680]

If I was to carry a CZ, I would choose a decocker model. I prefer a carry gun not have a safety that I must disengage.

If I had the safety version, I could lower it to half cock, but given that I have the option to get what I want, I would just get what I wanted rather than make something else work.

Or I would use the CZ cocked and locked, just practice using the safety.

[cougar gt-e]

Manual decocking is not something I ever want to do and goes against all safety practices drilled into our heads. If I HAD to manually decock a loaded CZ at home it would be in the basement with the muzzle end pointed into a five gallon bucket full of sand.

I decock 30 times during every steel challenge shoot, 50+ times during every range practice. It's not that serious of a concern, if done cautiously with proper technique.

But, there are two sides to every coin. Guess, I'm tails ?:D

In competition, the decocker guns have an advantage starting in half cock with a shorter first pull. But the safety guns have better triggers on all the following sa shots.

For carry, I agree a decocked cz on the 1/2 notch is pretty dang safe.

[Nathan]

You could carry cocked & locked....that would be safer than all this hammer slip off stuff.

With a manual safety & a firing pin block, it is safe enough for me.

In general, I find decocking unsafe, except by trigger on a cleared gun...

[chris in va]

Another important distinction nobody seems to make... for carrying it is in fact safer to carry half cocked. But in competition you are forced to fully decock

Our matches require the hammer to be either c/l or decocked according to factory settings. My P01 decocks to half notch, as designed.

[Pilot]

I have several CZ's, and only one with a decocker, the 75D PCR. I manually decock the others regularly. It is a safe, and easy practice, and one every gun owner should know.

[Walt Sherrill]

In competition, the decocker guns have an advantage starting in half cock with a shorter first pull. But the safety guns have better triggers on all the following sa shots.

With safety or decocker models, only the first shots are different; all following shots are SA and the same.


With the safety-equipped models, the first trigger pull is somewhat longer and heavier.



With the decocker-equipped models, the first trigger pull is a bit shorter and lighter because the hammer starts from the half-cock notch, which reduces the distance the trigger must move and also slightly pretensions the hammer spring.

In some competition classes, safety-equipped models CAN be started from cocked & locked, which means that all trigger pulls are the same: shorter and crisper and no "DA/SA transition" to be dealt with.

.

[Dan-O]

I can run my safety model cz's and canik from half cock too. It's not just the decocker models in which this is an option.

[Radny97]

^^^^^^yep

[unixfool]

I can run my safety model cz's and canik from half cock too. It's not just the decocker models in which this is an option.

I carry a Grand Power P11, a DA/SA handgun without a decocker. Many non-CZs have the feature. I noticed early on that it is far easier and less worrisome to manually decock to the half cocked position than to fully decock it (knowing that it also has several internal safeties). I carry it half-cocked.

Someone asked the difference. Half cocked means the hammer isn't resting on the firing pin...the firing pin will actually be blocked from going further. Fully decocked means the hammer will end up resting against the firing pin...that's a problem for some people.

In the end, it doesnt matter your preference...choice is good, whether it's the choice of manually decocking or carrying cocked and locked.

[Aguila Blanca]

Another important distinction nobody seems to make... for carrying it is in fact safer to carry half cocked. But in competition you are forced to fully decock the gun right?
Sorry. I do not accept that carrying in the half-cocked position is safer than hammer fully down. Yeah, I know you read it on the Internet ...

You wrote that carrying at half cock is "in fact" safer, so apparently you accept that as fact ... but what establishes that as a fact?

[Walt Sherrill]

Having to decock a gun apparently scares the CRAP out of a lot of people. Nothing wrong with being scared or being wary... (This discussion reminds me of folks from the Old Country, when I was young, talking about the Evil Eye...)

If the gun is pointed in a safe direction (at the ground, away from people, down range, etc.) and you decock using one hand to control the trigger and hammer, and the other to ALSO control the hammer (or put a finger under the hammer in case it falls too early), manually decocking is a safe and risk-free process.

The only place where I've consistently had the need to manually decock a weapon was in IDPA matches when shooting a safety-equipped CZ. In doing this, I never shot myself in the foot or leg, nor saw anyone else do something equally stupid or dangerous. On the other hand, I've observed and heard of many more negligent discharges done with "empty" guns in hand with than guns being manually decocked.

Manually decocking is a basic gun handling skill. Learn to do it safely. It's not rocket science!

[TunnelRat]

Manually decocking is a basic gun handling skill. Learn to do it safely. It's not rocket science!

I make a decision ahead of time. If I know I am going to use a pistol DA/SA, I get a variant with a decocker. If I know I'm going to use a pistol SAO, then I get a variant with a safety. I've done actual rocket science. I don't consider manually decocking a pistol the end of the world. But I can see why myself and others prefer taking ourselves out of the loop with a dedicated decocker if that's our desire. And luckily the market serves both interests, as well as pistols that allow both. Really nothing to get worked up over.

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm still trying to figure out how carrying with the hammer down could possibly be more dangerous than carrying with the hammer at half-cock. The CZ-75B has a firing pin safety, so the gun can't fire if dropped in either position. Beyond that, doesn't the 75B have a floating firing pin? I think it does, which means you could drop it on the hammer with NO firing pin safety and it still couldn't go off.

What am I missing?

[unixfool]

I'm still trying to figure out how carrying with the hammer down could possibly be more dangerous than carrying with the hammer at half-cock. The CZ-75B has a firing pin safety, so the gun can't fire if dropped in either position. Beyond that, doesn't the 75B have a floating firing pin? I think it does, which means you could drop it on the hammer with NO firing pin safety and it still couldn't go off.

What am I missing?
It's not the carrying or potential drops that are the problems. It's the lowering of the hammer. You've to pull the trigger to manually decock, then fully control the hammer on its way down. Also, pulling the trigger defeats the safeties. There's that and the fact that many people have a problem even considering decocking (there IS a risk of ND in manually decocking)...Half cock is an option for those that don't want to lower the hammer fully.

The OP described things pretty well, IMO.

[Walt Sherrill]

...There's that and the fact that many people have a problem even considering decocking (there IS a risk of ND in manually decocking)...Half cock is an option for those that don't want to lower the hammer fully.

The topic of manually decocking a handgun is sort of like the topic of the boogey man -- the idea is far worse than the reality.

Everyone seems to be afraid of the potential problems that happen while manually decocking, but many, many more problems (and negligent discharges) occur during other gun-handling adventures than during manual decocking...

[unixfool]

The topic of manually decocking a handgun is sort of like the topic of the boogey man -- the idea is far worse than the reality.



Everyone seems to be afraid of the potential problems that happen while manually decocking, but many, many more problems (and negligent discharges) occur during other gun-handling adventures than during manual decocking...



If it doesn't bother you, then it doesn't bother you. For many people, it does. Comparing it to the boogeyman does nothing. Discussing it does a lot more. Many people don't open carry for their reasons while many do (for their reasons)....neither is bad. The same can be said of manually decocking (or not). ALL of it is subjective.

[Bachá]

Sorry. I do not accept that carrying in the half-cocked position is safer than hammer fully down. Yeah, I know you read it on the Internet ...

You wrote that carrying at half cock is "in fact" safer, so apparently you accept that as fact ... but what establishes that as a fact?

No my friend... I am not making it "a fact" because I read it on the internet. I cited 2 sources on the original post. One is the rami´s manual. The other source (totally debatable) a guy in other forum saying what a CZ armorer told him.

I don't remember saying that carrying half cocked is safer, but what I meant is that it is safer to decock to the half cocked position than fully decock.

Beyond that, doesn't the 75B have a floating firing pin?

Reading the manual I think it does... I don't fully understand what it is. But in any case if you have the trigger depressed and the hammer slips off your fingers every safety is disengaged....

[Bachá]

It's not the carrying or potential drops that are the problems. It's the lowering of the hammer. You've to pull the trigger to manually decock, then fully control the hammer on its way down. Also, pulling the trigger defeats the safeties. There's that and the fact that many people have a problem even considering decocking (there IS a risk of ND in manually decocking)...Half cock is an option for those that don't want to lower the hammer fully.

The OP described things pretty well, IMO.

Wel... that exactly...

[Bachá]

While my original post was safety during decocking and not during carrying... I would also like to discuss the safety features on the rami....

The Rami´s manual says about its safety features:

Inertia Firing Pin
The design of the firing pin prevents the firing pin from protruding through the face of the slide when the hammer is in its rest position. This eliminates the possibility of a discharge when a loaded pistol is dropped on the hammer.

Firing Pin Safety
The firing pin safety keeps the firing pin blocked until the trigger is pulled. This safety device minimizes the risk of accidental discharge through mishandling such as when a loaded pistol is dropped.

Safety Stop on the Hammer
A half-cock safety notch is on the hammer so as to prevent it from striking the firing pin when the hammer is manually cocked, and a thumb could slip. When the hammer is on the safety stop, it is not leaning against the firing pin stop, but its position is further back.

Can anyone explain to me the first one? I understand the other 2...

So in fact carrying cocked and locked in a good holster is the safer option...

the truth will set you free :cool:

We have 4 safeties preventing the hammer to strike the firing pin when cocked and locked...

[Aguila Blanca]

It's not the carrying or potential drops that are the problems. It's the lowering of the hammer. You've to pull the trigger to manually decock, then fully control the hammer on its way down. Also, pulling the trigger defeats the safeties. There's that and the fact that many people have a problem even considering decocking (there IS a risk of ND in manually decocking)...Half cock is an option for those that don't want to lower the hammer fully.

But you also have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer to the half-cocked position, so what's the difference? We're discussing the models with the manual thumb safety, not the ones with the decocker.

Inertia Firing Pin
The design of the firing pin prevents the firing pin from protruding through the face of the slide when the hammer is in its rest position. This eliminates the possibility of a discharge when a loaded pistol is dropped on the hammer.

...

Can anyone explain to me the first one? I understand the other 2...
An inertia firing pin is too short to make physical contact with the face of the hammer and the primer at the same time. The firing pin is held back by a spring. When the hammer falls, it strikes the firing pin hard enough to transfer energy into the firing pin and send it forward, hopefully with enough energy to light off the primer.

Same principle as these little toys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JadO3RuOJGU#t=162

What the firing pin safety does is to block this forward movement of the firing pin unless the trigger has been pulled to disengage the safety lock. So if the hammer should somehow fall without the trigger having been pulled, the hammer could strike the firing pin with full force but the firing pin still could not impact the primer.

[JohnKSa]

But you also have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer to the half-cocked position, so what's the difference?Because you can almost immediately let off the trigger (re-enabling the firing pin safety) after lowering the hammer just a fraction if you're only going to let the hammer go to half cock. If the hammer does slip after you've let off the trigger, nothing bad happens for two reasons. The half-cock will catch it and the firing pin safety is a backup.

If you're going all the way to hammer down, you have to keep the trigger depressed for much more of time you're lowering the hammer and you have to lower the hammer farther. Which means more potential for a slip that would result in the gun firing because the trigger is being held to the rear during much more of the process.

[unixfool]

Because you can almost immediately let off the trigger (re-enabling the firing pin safety) after lowering the hammer just a fraction if you're only going to let the hammer go to half cock. If the hammer does slip after you've let off the trigger, nothing bad happens for two reasons. The half-cock will catch it and the firing pin safety is a backup.



If you're going all the way to hammer down, you have to keep the trigger depressed for much more of time you're lowering the hammer and you have to lower the hammer farther. Which means more potential for a slip that would result in the gun firing because the trigger is being held to the rear during much more of the process.



THIS^^

[Bachá]

Because you can almost immediately let off the trigger (re-enabling the firing pin safety) after lowering the hammer just a fraction if you're only going to let the hammer go to half cock. If the hammer does slip after you've let off the trigger, nothing bad happens for two reasons. The half-cock will catch it and the firing pin safety is a backup.

If you're going all the way to hammer down, you have to keep the trigger depressed for much more of time you're lowering the hammer and you have to lower the hammer farther. Which means more potential for a slip that would result in the gun firing because the trigger is being held to the rear during much more of the process.

My point since the beginning... :-) Wanted to open a thread about it because I realized of this learning about the safety features in the RAMI and never saw it mentioned in any of the thread I found about decocking a safety model.

[Bachá]

An inertia firing pin is too short to make physical contact with the face of the hammer and the primer at the same time. The firing pin is held back by a spring. When the hammer falls, it strikes the firing pin hard enough to transfer energy into the firing pin and send it forward, hopefully with enough energy to light off the primer.

Thank you for the explanation...!

[Bachá]

"Fun fact" for you guys... the safety model of the RAMI costs $980 here in my country... and the decocker model $1493...

Now I know "the only thing" the decocker does is lowering the hammer to half cocked and I loose the capability of running cocked and locked...

Maybe this is why I was so surprised discovering this :-)