An honest question about striker-fire and young kids

[JSMidd]

Recently, I made a switch from dedicated revolver guy to a striker-fired .45 ACP for capacity and ease of reload sake. I am intentionally leaving gun brands out of the equation, and am merely talking safety here, so please follow suit. :)

I have four kids, two who are old enough to be gun owners in their own right, highly capable and on the path to being trustworthy at 11 and 13.

I also have two younger kids, 6 and 4.

The other thing to factor in is that I carry all day, every day, in the home and out of it.

HERE'S MY QUESTION...

Do you feel 100% safe with a chambered firearm that can go "boom" at the press of a trigger around young kids? I have never, ever, ever, had my striker-fire firearm come out of its IWB holster, but I got too close for comfort today, and it's got me thinking. To be fair, I think that we carry "just in case", and that line of thinking has me considering a semi-auto with external safeties of some kind for the same "just in case" thinking with my younger kids.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[TunnelRat]

The goal is to keep kids away from unattended firearms. That's the whole goal. I knew a guy that worked at S&W decades ago. He claimed the factory once did a study where they had kids attempt to pull the triggers on unloaded revolvers. The general notion at the time was the kids didn't have the hand strength to pull the trigger on the revolvers. You know what the kids did? With no prompting, they used two hands and the index fingers from both hands to pull the trigger. Maybe an external safety would stop them, but it's more a question of time. When I was a little kid I took the gear assembly apart on my mom's exercise bike because I was bored. An external safety is a little switch that doesn't take too much intelligence. I can see where you're coming from, but honestly education about firearm safety for the kids and making sure they are locked up when not in your immediate possession is really the only true course of action.

[Mosin44az]

Mossad Ayoob once wrote that he learned to rack the slide on his Dad's 1911 by hooking it on a table or chair, when he was still too young and weak to do that conventionally. Same lesson.

In your case, an empty chamber on your carry sounds kid-safer than a safety, accepting the tactical disadvantage .

[Lee6113]

I have never, ever, ever, had my striker-fire firearm come out of its IWB holster, but I got too close for comfort today, and it's got me thinking.

I know you were trying to leave specifics out, but what happened exactly?

Did one of the kids try to get into it? Did you almost have to draw it on a bad guy? Did it fall out in the bathroom?

Some context, even if vague, might be nice.

I carry with a round chambered, my weapon is on me at all times as well. I have a two year old. The weapon will not go off without the trigger being pressed, and if holstered properly that won't happen. Kids cannot touch it While I'm carrying it, so that's not a worry for me.

If you carried revolvers prior to this I will assume you carried it with 6/6 rounds in the cylinder and no additional safties. Pretty much the same thing as a semi auto loaded with a chambered round, imo.

Lee

[marine6680]

A holster with better retention may help prevent slips.


The firearm itself is safe against drops and knocks, so no worries their. If it does manage to slip out, it's unlikely to go unnoticed by yourself.


Even small kids can manage a trigger, a safety isn't hard to figure out either.


Teaching safety and what to do if they see a firearm... Generally leave it be and find an adult... Should be top priority. Having the older children be given a little responsibility over the younger ones, will help them want to do the right thing even when it is themselves that find a firearm... "To protect little bro/sis".

Teach respect and not fear... And know your children and their tendencies to push boundaries. If you have a child you feel will be overly curious, then a bit more diligence and teaching may be necessary.

After you teach them what to do, periodically ask them to repeat what they learned, or otherwise reiterate the leason. Keep what they learned fresh in their mind, every week, two, whatever you feel is often enough.


But always be mindful and do not leave a loaded firearm unattended in the first place.

[DaleA]

I have never, ever, ever, had my striker-fire firearm come out of its IWB holster, but I got too close for comfort today

I'm not sure I understand the situation here. Are you saying your gun fell out of its holster?

Also I'm just asking for clarification here, are you thinking there are times when your kids would have access to your gun when you're not around?

Like I said before I think I'm missing what your question is here.

For anybody and everybody I agree with the general sentiments on this site, that you keep your gun on you or you lock it up and then things should be good.

[bamaranger]

Yeah, I'm lost too, re "out of the holster"........did the pistol get snagged and come out fo the holster, dropped, etc? Were you concerned about an AD resultant of a drop?

Regards kids and guns.......I educated bamaboy at a young age, and he was permitted to handle unloaded guns with supervision young as well. But I did not tempt him or invite tradgedy by leaving firearms about unsecured or unattended, loaded or not. Kids are indeed curious. My grandad's 1911, in his dresser drawer, found by me quite by accident, was a constant source of fascination. I handled it every time I could. It was stored unloaded, and I knew better, but......., geez there IT was. He would have whipped me good.

[Brit]

In watching the TV News, so many incidents of small kids being shot accidently!

Invariably the handgun belongs to a convicted felon, left with a round chambered, on a bedside table, or under a cushion, or mattress!

All guns are in the safe, in my house, except the one on me. Grandkids visiting, aged 3 and 5, the holstered G19, full magazine, breach empty, one back in pipe when they leave.

[45_auto]

Invariably the handgun belongs to a convicted felon, left with a round chambered, on a bedside table, or under a cushion, or mattress!

Do you by chance have access to the internet?

Even the most rudimentary search will prove the falsehood of your statement.

[ritepath]

Most my striker guns also have a manual safety....I also never carry IWB.

Most new shooters out there have been sold a bill of goods with the idea that a safety is too dangerous on a carry gun, and instead meant for 22 competition pistols or whatever glock salesmen claim.

So he/she takes the pistol home, drops it in a purse or some crappy IWB holster and you know the rest of the story...


I like either a manual safety or SA/DA, both my kids have been raised with slab sided semis, SA/DA, and manual safety pistols.

[zincwarrior]

When the kids were real young, no we didn't. Empty chamber time. When they were a little older that changed, first to cocked and locked and then to striker fired when I switched firearms.

[ROCK6]

It sound like you're raising you kids well. The media and anti-gun crowds have placed such a negative taboo around firearms that it ironically create a lot of curiosity for kids not exposed to firearms.

I didn't grow up around a lot of firearms, mostly hunting rifles, but several in my family had a loaded gun by the door and as a child it was just off limits, no questions asked. If I wanted to see a gun, my grandfather would unload it, go over the safety protocols and let me see it.

For my son, I did the same thing. Growing up, guns were just another tool in the house and he knew he could handle one anytime he asked, but he also knew he couldn't touch them without me around. He was shooting at age four and knew the difference between a toy gun and a real gun; he knew four main safety rules and he knew never to touch a real firearm without an adult around who gave permission.

Only you know your children best. If I wasn't too comfortable, I would probably opt to change my carry method and keep a closer eye on how I stored them and carried them. Gun ownership requires responsibility as much as raising children; you just have to find your own comfort level and continue to educate your kids.

ROCK6

[adamBomb]

I will not carry with one in the chamber around my kids for this very reason unless I feel in danger. If my guns had safeties then I would use those but they do not as I carry a glock. I do not think its safe for kids to be jumping on you/wrestling with you when you have a striker fired pistol with one on the chamber - its just asking for trouble (and kids love to do this 24/7).

[rodfac]

TunnelRat said the following in post #2. I concur wholeheartedly...well done sir. Rod

The goal is to keep kids away from unattended firearms. That's the whole goal. I knew a guy that worked at S&W decades ago. He claimed the factory once did a study where they had kids attempt to pull the triggers on unloaded revolvers. The general notion at the time was the kids didn't have the hand strength to pull the trigger on the revolvers. You know what the kids did? With no prompting, they used two hands and the index fingers from both hands to pull the trigger. Maybe an external safety would stop them, but it's more a question of time. When I was a little kid I took the gear assembly apart on my mom's exercise bike because I was bored. An external safety is a little switch that doesn't take too much intelligence. I can see where you're coming from, but honestly education about firearm safety for the kids and making sure they are locked up when not in your immediate possession is really the only true course of action.

[pilpens]

+1 on:
1. firearm safety education.
2. better retention on holster when in use.
3. proper storage when not in use.

[Skeets]

Maybe you can research all about the Ruger LC9s.This information may provide you some peace of mind.

[Brit]

45-auto.

Looked into one source. All the cases for 2016 already.

Just about half and half. I must say, I did not research, as you had suggested, but the news here in Florida, time and time again, they were stolen guns, parents who were not supposed to have guns, in many cases.

But it gives me a headache to even remotely dig into the edge of the Children Killed and injured, it is terrible. Seems like we here On The Firing Line, with Grand Children, are real careful, yes?

[tirod]

I'm not one of those who lived or does it - but there have been many who post saying they were raised in a household where loaded firearms were common and even within reach of children. No issues reported.

The one thing they say is that they were taught early on - even if by simply standing there watching - what firearms could do, and what the proper rules of safety were. And in that exposure most of their inherent curiousity was satisfied.

I did some of the same with my children, when I got the guns out unloaded they were allowed to handle them. They got to see the deer shot with them, too. We never had issues with them "getting into the guns," which were not locked into a security cabinet. Just put away unloaded in a closet.

Supervise their curiosity and it gets satisfied. Kids who want to see what it's all about because they aren't allowed to touch them WILL figure out how to. And that is where the majority of nice families fail to do the right thing and create their own tragedies, which are the bulk of the children shot in most neighborhoods.

There is a concept that points out when we society declares something to be evil and proscribes humans from involvement, it actually creates the attraction to find out why it's so bad. IE, the human mind is fascinated with the dark side of things. Don't make it a big deal and that desire isn't created in the first place,

If anything the anti gunners push for disarmament is the biggest sales pitch for gun makers and they don't even have to do anything about it to benefit. The AWB is first and foremost the #1 reason for the popularity of AR15's today.

Unload the gun and let the kids handle it, give them the rules about never doing that unless Dad is there. I told them they could ask at ANY time and I would get them out to see them and handle them. They never bothered.

Safety IS first and foremost, once my older boys were big enough to have friends over for the night I started locking them up. They understood and it was no big deal. The other concern is that most burglaries for handguns are precased by "friends of friends" and I didn't want virtual strangers to be impressed with "all those cool guns your dad has."

Also goes to carrying IWB - the gun is exposed and accessible. If that is a concern, carrying a pocket gun might be a better solution. Personally I wouldn't carry at all if I was horsing around with the kids at home, for much the same reason and having no sharp corners on coffee tables in the house. Kids bang up against things often enough.

[MarkGlazer]

Two problems, two solutions;

Holster; make a change to the type that you need to manipulate/twist in order to remove the gun, something along those lines, something that no one can take from you easily. When you decided to carry you made a commitment to protect and defend, that means a chambered weapon.

The children; they are naturally curious and no matter how much you teach them, until they move up to the level of your older two where it begins to register that what dad says is the law, don't trust them around your guns. If you have a safe, use it. If you have to keep a gun on a shelf in the closet, whatever it takes.

Be safe. God bless.

[rpseraph]

99% of the time I carry condition 3 (mag inserted, nothing in chamber). I train to draw, rack, and fire (Israeli Method.) For my comfort level, for my kids (1 and 5 yrs old), and for my confidence, I am fine with level 3. I have carried condition 1 (round in chamber, striker fired so no safety) a few times when going into particularly sketchy situations (and once when going to a creepers house to get some stupid lamp my wife got on Craigslist, lol)

The risk vs. benefit is too high for me at THIS stage in MY life.

No matter what condition you carry in... training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice), training (practice).

[Walt Sherrill]

...Do you feel 100% safe with a chambered firearm that can go "boom" at the press of a trigger around young kids? I have never, ever, ever, had my striker-fire firearm come out of its IWB holster, but I got too close for comfort today, and it's got me thinking. To be fair, I think that we carry "just in case", and that line of thinking has me considering a semi-auto with external safeties of some kind for the same "just in case" thinking with my younger kids.

If you're concerned about kids accessing a loaded weapon, the type of safety or trigger in a chambered firearm is irrelevant.

If a kid can get to it, a kid can make it fire. Making it harder to do just makes it a bigger challenge :). As others have noted, the a far more important question is "what sort of gun safe or storage device is best in my home so that my kids (or their visiting friends) can't get to the gun(s) when I'm not with them."

Even if you've trained your kids well -- and some have -- your kids have friends who can come to the house. Because you (or your more-savvy kids) can't be everywhere all the time, some of THOSE kids may be able to access a chambered weapon -- unless the weapons are kept under lock and key. Just training your kids about gun safety isn't enough.

I no longer have kids at home, but a grandchild and other young family members do visit. Small, lockable gun safes that can be fixed in place, and can't be easily opened without a crowbar or sledgehammer are generally kid-proof; quite a few can be found for under $100, and are far safer than any on-gun safety mechanism. (I also have a medium-sized fire-proof gun safe for my other handguns and rifles, and other family valuables).

One of our small safes is attached to the floor near my bed, but you won't notice it unless you're looking for it. At night it's left open and unlocked, but when there were kids in the house, it was always closed and locked. It was easily opened by pressing 3 buttons on top in a certain order -- even in the dark. It's closed and locked as soon as I get up.

The other small gun safe is in our den on another floor, also contains a loaded handgun. That safe stays locked, inside the bottom of a cabinet but attached to the floor; while it's easily accessed, its not easily seen. It is also opened by pressing four buttons in the proper order (or by using a key). Kids or burglars won't get into any of those safe unless they bring crowbars or heavier equipment with them -- and they may not even find the small safes.

If someone comes in while we're away, our home security system should be screaming at them and that will let them know they haven't got a lot of time to work... They'll probably be looking for something that's more easily grabbed than guns in a gunsafe.

[vyse.04]

I never had an issue carrying a loaded striker fired pistol around my kids, and they were close to your younger ones in age. Even still, if you have your doubts about safety I believe it is best to err on the side of caution. My holsters do not have a strap for retention, but none of my guns have even come close to falling out.

With all that being said, I later made the change back to DA/SA. I did it because I prefer the platform for SD carry, but that's just me. My seven year old is able to pull the trigger on my Sig (with both hands only), but regardless of that, all loaded guns in the house are locked up in a safe. My boys also know the difference between toys and real guns, but you can never be too careful.

[Brit]

When the Israeli big change of Browning Hi Power, to the move to Glock pistols,
loaded chamber is now the way to go.

Same inside the belt holsters, and double mag pouches, also inside.

I never saw any fat ones! Security Officers. In Canada, 10 round capacity mags.

[TailGator]

Like some others have said, there is no way to give specific advise without knowing more about what happened. For advice as general as the question, though, everyone needs a good holster, and everyone needs a good way to secure firearms from children. Whether the pistol is striker-fired or not is not in the equation.

While I agree with the principle of educating about firearms to satisfy their curiosity, firearms still need to be secured, for the simple reason that immature people make immature decisions. The ability to think things all the way through and see all possible consequences of one's action is a skill that develops, if it all, with a certain amount of age and experience.

[str8tshot]

Without falling into the trap of going on a diatribe, the answer to your question is YES I do feel 100% safe with a loaded striker fired gun around my younger kids and still younger grand kid.

[kraigwy]

My kids are grown, but I have grand kids and they often bring their friends over to grandpa's place to ride horses and 4 wheelers.

I feel I can train and trust my grandkids but I don't know some of their friends.

Having said that I feel perfectly safe with striker or hammer fired firearms simply because they are locked in one of my safes.

Except my carry gun which is in my pocket. I'm not too concerned with any kids picking my pocket without me knowing.

One of my greatest fears is a kid getting hurt because they got a hold of one of my guns.

[44 AMP]

TO be clear, when you say "striker fired" you are ONLY talking about the modern striker fired, no safety lever (lock) types that have a "trigger activation switch"? (such as the Glock, etc.)

Because in my mind, when I hear "striker fired" as a class, that includes many more designs than that. My Luger is striker fired!

That being said, I am on the other side of the coin when it comes to the safetyless striker fired types. Not only am I NOT 100% comfortable with them around kids, I'm not 100% comfortable with them around certain adults!!!

Small children can "operate" an amazing amount of things on the monkey see, monkey do system. But it isn't until they get a bit older that they get to the "monkey understand" level.

My son, at age 4, "drove" his grandfathers LTD. (Grampa left the keys in it)
He opened the door, which was larger and heavier than he was, got in, turned the key to "run", and put the (now unlocked) gearshift in Drive!

The engine did not start, ONLY because my son had not turned the key ALL the way to start (monkey did not understand that part, yet, but DID understand you needed to turn the key before you could put it in gear)

Another case, young lad, 5 or 6 (wife's brother) fired a .22 rife into the floor of his home, when left unsupervised. He got the gun (.22 bolt action) from a closet, got the bolt from a dresser drawer and got the ammo from a high shelf he had to stack things up and climb up on to reach.

He assembled the rifle (put the bolt in it), put a round in it, and fired it!! FORTUNATELY no one was hurt.

Kids can do AMAZING things, way more than you think they can, when they have both the desire, and the opportunity. Don't "kid" yourself about that!!

I grew up in a home with at least one loaded, totally unsecured gun. So did my kids. So did (as far as I can determine) every generation of my family back to the early 1700s.

My kids got taught at early ages what real guns were, and they saw first hand how real guns turn real living things into real dead things. They got taught that if they didn't know how (or physically couldn't operate the action) to check to see if it was loaded, they left it completely alone.

Remove the mystery, and "forbidden fruit" isn't attractive anymore.

Sadly, today, most parents either don't know, don't have the opportunity, or simply don't take the time and effort to properly train their children about firearms, or a great many other things.

Also, "neighbor kids" never had unsupervised run of the house, and not just because there were guns there.

Lock up your loaded gun, if its not on your person. Lock up unloaded guns if its your preference. Lock up your ammo, and it can't load an unlocked gun.

If your loving rug rats and house apes are using you for a jungle gym or climbing wall, and you are wearing a loaded gun, then a "striker fired no safety" pistol with a loaded chamber, in anything less than a full flap buckled shut holster is a level of risk I am happy to avoid.

[Worc]

No. It does matter if it's striker, DAO, SAO, or DA/SA. I've always kept my gun next to my bed with a loaded magazine and empty chamber. I've also talked to my kids about guns. I always told them they could hold my guns when ever they wanted as long as I was present. Removing the curiosity seems to have been a big help for me at least.

I still keep my nightstand gun in this condition even though my kids are almost 15 and older. If kids are spending the night and my wife and I are not going to be home while they are there. I either take it with me or goes in one of the safes until I get home. I talked my dad into keeping his gun in this condition and still does since there always seemed to be grand kids over there.

[zincwarrior]

If you have to keep a gun on a shelf in the closet, whatever it takes.

Kids can climb like monkeys. If its not on you it needs to be locked in some manner.

To those who note-train your child, that doesn't take into account all the other kids that may get in your house over time.

EDIT: Walt Sherrill beat me to it, with a better more detailed reply.

[JSMidd]

OP here again...

First, thanks for all of your responses and critiques. I welcome these, and we all should.

A few of you have asked for specifics with the attitude of wanting be more helpful, which I appreciate.

I carry a Glock 21 in a IWB holster that has a thumbstrap.

The incident that occurred which got me thinking was specifically this...

My four year old son surprised me as I walked through the front door after work. He does this every day, it is the best part of my day. However, this time is the first time that he has jumped on me from a ledge that is near our front door. He was perfectly silent, and to his credit, it was a well-executed bit of kid-stalking. :)
When he jumped on my back, he slid down my waist, and his right hand was searching for something to grab, and somehow, he was accidentally able to get the thumbstrap off, and the firearm did NOT move one iota, but again, like I said in my original post, the same "just in case" thinking that causes each of us to carry is the same kind of thinking that caused me to think "just in case" for safety.

For full disclosure - whenever my kids want to wrestle, they know to ask first, because they know that I will then go into my bedroom, disarm, and lock the firearm away in a locked safe, and then wrestle like a gorilla with them, complete with the gorilla noises that are mandatory whenever we wrestle ;).

At any rate, this might seem petty to some, but this is precisely what happened to get me thinking.

Thanks again for all of your responses.

[turkeestalker]

Doesn't sound petty at all... sounds more like a father thinking as he should to me.

[TunnelRat]

At any rate, this might seem petty to some, but this is precisely what happened to get me thinking.

Not at all. I think your story is a valuable one. You can be as safe as you can and give all the instruction you should, but kids still do things spontaneously as happened in your example. I'd talk about it with your son and explain why it can be a concern. Beyond that, you could consider a holster that offers more of a locking mechanism. I like the Safariland ALS.

[ROCK6]

When he jumped on my back, he slid down my waist, and his right hand was searching for something to grab, and somehow, he was accidentally able to get the thumbstrap off, and the firearm did NOT move one iota, but again, like I said in my original post, the same "just in case" thinking that causes each of us to carry is the same kind of thinking that caused me to think "just in case" for safety.

If anything, it might be a good plug for your holster! Getting mugged by a midget, but keeping retention of your pistol is actually a good thing:D Seriously, a valid concern from a father. If the loaded chamber is a concern, maybe change your TTPs (Tactics, Techniques and Procedures), and consider removing the chambered round as soon as you get home (like in the vehicle)?

ROCK6

[P71pilot]

I think the safety kind of is a non-issue, if the person (kid) knows how to pick up a gun and fire if, they probably know how to operate a safety or can figure it out rather quickly. I have a 7 year old brother who lives with me, and I keep a handgun in my nightstand. He knows not to touch any of my guns and that guns are dangerous and can kill something with one shot, but just in case, I leave the gun with an empty chamber. Because I know for a fact that he doesn't have the strength to grab the grip and cock it, chambering a round. I do this just in case him ornone of his friends get any hair brained ideas when I am gone or at work.

Safeties are easy to figure out, they only have 2 settings and usually a red mark for fire, kids could easily figure this out. I think it is a good precaution to either leave your loaded gun/s unnaccesable (like in a biometric safe or locked safe) or leave it not chambered. Most kids under 10-12 probably can't pull back a 14-25lb recoil spring to chamber a round

[rodfac]

I have a 7 year old brother who lives with me, and I keep a handgun in my nightstand. He knows not to touch any of my guns and that guns are dangerous and can kill something with one shot, but just in case, I leave the gun with an empty chamber. Because I know for a fact that he doesn't have the strength to grab the grip and cock it, chambering a round. I do this just in case him ornone of his friends get any hair brained ideas when I am gone or at work.
Are you saying that you leave a gun, unsecured, in the house with an unsupervised 7 year old who knows where it is, while you're at work? Additionally, the post could be read to mean you have a full magazine or cylinder with an empty chamber....here are a few possibilities....

If that's correct, how can you guarantee he won't take it out to show his buddies; that they won't take it outside; that a neighbor doesn't see them playing around and call the police in; that they won't beg, borrow or steal the correct ammunition; that one of them is actually strong enough to chamber a round...the possibilities are nearly endless. And every one of them scares me to death.

[P71pilot]

Rodfac,

Why don't you worry about your own business. My brother does not know there is a gun in my nightstand drawer, and he knows to stay out of my room. There is always somebody here watching him, to make sure he doesnt get it ir touch it or play with it. Unfortunately I don't have the ability to lock my bedroom door, or else I would, and eliminate this "risk" all together. I keep the pistol in my night and drawer because the only other option is my small gunsafe, which is across my room. I would rather keep it right by my head in easy access, just have to pull it out of the tight fitting hybrid holster, chamber a round and it's ready to go; than to have to look for my key to my gun safe, walk over to my gun safe, insert the key, twist, open the door, and grab the handgun. This just is not practical. The pistol is for the rare occurrence of a break in or home invasion. The several extra seconds it takes to get the gun out of the safe may be too much.

Besides my Concealed handgun permit has not arrived yet or my primary defense pistol would be with me at work until I got home, then cycle repeated

[rodfac]

P71... I can't add anything to my previous post that would help you...Good luck with your safety procedures. Your trust in that 7 year old and his friends is very touching. I hope it works out for you. Best regards, Rod

[Sulaco]

Bottom line, only you can determine what you consider safe for you and your family. It's a fine balance and always has been.

[turkeestalker]

This is not a personal attack, and not meant to be disrespectful P71pilot, but as a responsible gun owner committed to preserving the right to be one, I kind of think that rodfac is minding our own business to be perfectly honest with you.

Just a thought, what about possibly securing your pistol in the safe across the room at times when you're not at home, but then returning it to the nightstand for easy access when you are there to monitor who does and does not gain access to it.
There are no guarantees and often what we regard as inconceivable manifests in the blink of an eye.
I know that I could not live with the guilt I would feel if I were responsible for the potential tragedy that your current practices make a real possibility.
I'm betting that it would be seen that I did in fact live with it, getting three square meals a day in a tiny room with bars and the rest of my days to wallow in that unbearable guilt.

only you can determine what you consider safe for you and your family... you... along with a judge and a jury.
We have a responsibility to ourselves and our loved ones first, and then to every other responsible gun owner out there and their families, and so on... just sayin.

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't have the ability to lock my bedroom door, or else I would, and eliminate this "risk" all together. I keep the pistol in my night and drawer because the only other option is my small gunsafe, which is across my room. I would rather keep it right by my head in easy access, just have to pull it out of the tight fitting hybrid holster, chamber a round and it's ready to go; than to have to look for my key to my gun safe, walk over to my gun safe, insert the key, twist, open the door, and grab the handgun.

I think you've taken the long route to get where you want to go. Use the gunsafe during the day, and your bedside drawer at night. I agree that you shouldn't have to struggle with a gun safe when things go bump in the night.

That said, try this: keep the key for the gun safe on your key ring, have the safe near where you undress, unlock it at night and put the gun in your bedside table as you get ready for bed. Then, when you wake up, put the gun back in the safe and lock it, as you dress.

If your house is ever broken into, one of the places burglars look for guns is in bedside drawers and closets. Stolen guns probably get them more money than TVs or computers. (I know of two guys who lost guns that way -- even though they had gun safes in the same room.)

[P71pilot]

I apologise for being so snappy, rough day at work tearing off a big high steep shingle roof. I appreciate the suggestions and concern, I will rethink my current home defense setup.

[Sequins]

I'm unconcerned with one in the tube under any circumstances. A better holster ought to afford you the same confidence. They aren't common but get a thumb break glock holster if that's what it takes to make you confident.

Personally, I'm more worried about racking the slide during a grapple than I am with accurately discharging the firearm during a grapple, so I carry loaded chamber.

[Sequins]

Came in a little too hot, sorry

[wild cat mccane]

I actively challenge the poster saying it is the media that is creating a fear.

Post research from an academic journal showing gun safety lessons stop young kids from play with guns.

My Glocks all come with stickers noting "Children are attracted to firearms."

If you can't maintain control of the gun, YOU are the danger you believe you are mitigating by carrying a firearm.

I do not accept what many do. "Accidental" child deaths from an unattended firearm is NOT a cost of freedom. It is this disgusting bravado that makes me think we do need better firearm intelligence testing at sells.

[44 AMP]

"Accidental" child deaths from an unattended firearm is NOT a cost of freedom.

The cost of freedom includes paying the price when people are free to make the wrong choices, as well as the right ones.

It is this disgusting bravado that makes me think we do need better firearm intelligence testing at sells.

I'm not sure what you mean by "disgusting bravado" but I can tell you that "better intelligence testing at sells" does nothing to guarantee that the people who "pass the test" will not later do irresponsible things.

[wild cat mccane]

Again, research please.

We already accept at least the basic level of testing is good in the US during the FBI background.

Asking if one type of trigger is safer than another is scary. If a kid is touching a trigger in the first place, owner shouldn't own a firearm. In fact, a crime has been committed in most states at that very second. If you like it or not, doesn't matter. That is a legal fact.

[Big Shrek]

There's a vid floating around of a kid (4-yr-old I think) at a party
draws his dad's pistol from waist holster while Dad is talking to someone else,
and accidently shoots him in the guts with it right after he draws it.

Training kids Early and Often is KEY.
Making sure they know the Destructive Power is also KEY.
Probably the most important part...that they understand Totally Broken/Unfixable.

And this...
Buy one of those cheap glass plates at Walmart for $1.50,
take kid outside to a relatively safe parking area near a dumpster,
have the kid throw the plate on the ground...plate breaks, of course,
have the kid tell the plate he's sorry...
Ask the kid, did saying "I'm sorry" fix the plate??
(no)
That's what happens when you do wrong things,
sorry can't fix very much.

It is a concept every kid needs to Understand.

[Prof Young]

I live in the center of a rural small town where home invasion type crime is nearly unheard of. So I take the risk of having my HD guns in "quick open" safes. All my other firearms are in safes that need a key.

As we were getting into the safe to get the "cricket" for my seven year old grandson he said, "It's a good idea to keep your guns locked in safes."

I'm sure he didn't mean that he had pernicious intentions, but he has another grandpa who, I'm told, has a lot of guns around the house not in safes. His comment showed me how aware he was of the presence of firearms in the home.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

[TunnelRat]

It is this disgusting bravado that makes me think we do need better firearm intelligence testing at sells.
We already accept at least the basic level of testing is good in the US during the FBI background.

We check criminal behavior. An "intelligence" test is a different story. How do you propose measuring intelligence? One such way might be knowing the difference between sells and sales, or verbs and nouns more generally. Now that might seem snide, but my point is it's easy to judge others. We're all human, and asking questions is one way we learn. That's what the OP is doing here on this forum. For that matter, I'm unaware of any test that precludes lapses in judgement.

Asking if one type of trigger is safer than another is scary.

I don't think so at all. We've had numerous discussions on this forum as to whether certain designs are "safer" than others.

If a kid is touching a trigger in the first place, owner shouldn't own a firearm. In fact, a crime has been committed in most states at that very second. If you like it or not, doesn't matter. That is a legal fact.

If you read all the posts from the OP on this thread you'll see his concern wasn't about leaving a pistol in reach for an unattended child.

[44 AMP]

We already accept at least the basic level of testing is good in the US during the FBI background.

I think you need to define what you mean by "test", so that we're on the same page.

The FBI background check is no kind of test, it is a records check. Period.

And it is no indicator of intent, nor competence. ALL it is a check for prior convictions and outstanding wants & warrants (in the best case).

If a kid is touching a trigger in the first place, owner shouldn't own a firearm.

That is a hugely overbroad statement. If we assume you are talking about unsupervised access to a loaded gun, and we assume the kid you are referring to is not capable of responsible control of the gun, then the statement just becomes one of extreme opinion.

However the broad brush of the statement does not require us to assume that. We could just as well assume that the kid is a 17yr old Marine with government provided access to a machine gun. Should the Federal Government be in the "shouldn't own a firearm category? Sure, this is the absurd extreme end of the range, but the broadness of the statement allows for it.

Kids with guns, without adult supervision is a crime in many states, quite true. Kids with guns UNDER adult supervision isn't.

[TunnelRat]

Kids with guns, without adult supervision is a crime in many states, quite true. Kids with guns UNDER adult supervision isn't.

+1.

[wild cat mccane]

Thank you for the qualifier. The point being, under the parameters of the OP concerned about safety and kids, if a kid is playing with the trigger, it is unsupervised. I assume the fear of the OP isn't for attending a range, true? I don't think you were giving me a fair shake in this obvious assumption.

So my argument, and the law, stands. Kid touching that trigger, not at the range and intending to hit a target, is a crime. If your kid somehow fires your gun you are carrying in public, you will get charged for a crime against the society you live in.

The overarching premise of some course/test needs to be administered is proven by a thread of a gun owner asking about different trigger "safeness." The trigger is the action step to a bullet firing.

I am not even talking about going to the rigors of other countries like Israel with phsyc approval and all that.

[str8tshot]

Have you read the 2nd amendment? Or the most recent SC rulings regarding same? We have a right to keep and bear arms: that right does not presuppose the ability to pass some "test" of our competence. Freedoms do come with costs, and sharing those freedoms with those YOU FEEL are unworthy is one of the cost I'm happy you are required to bear.
I am chaffed by those who want to tell others how others must behave in the exercise of rights. I have a few 1st amendment rights I would like to exercise, but I will refrain.

[TunnelRat]

The point being, under the parameters of the OP concerned about safety and kids, if a kid is playing with the trigger, it is unsupervised. I assume the fear of the OP isn't for attending a range, true? I don't think you were giving me a fair shake in this obvious assumption.


Did you even read the follow up from the OP? There is no hypothetical at this point, we know what his concern was, and it has nothing to do with unsupervised children.

Kid touching that trigger, not at the range and intending to hit a target, is a crime.

Under the supervision of an adult? No that by itself is not a crime in a number of states. You keep omitting supervision. It doesn't have to be at a range either. You could have private property large enough to allow shooting on it. For that matter what is your definition of a target?

44amp already pointed out your penchant for making very broad statements. For someone that keeps pointing to the law and potential crimes, you should know broad statements rarely if ever apply. The law is a very specific thing, intentionally so.

If your kid somehow fires your gun you are carrying in public, you will get charged for a crime against the society you live in.

If an adult discharges a firearm in public without due cause that adult will likely be charged with a crime. Negligence with a firearm is a crime and I don't see anyone arguing against that here.

The overarching premise of some course/test needs to be administered is proven by a thread of a gun owner asking about different trigger "safeness." The trigger is the action step to a bullet firing.

While pressing a trigger does fire a bullet, there has been no shortage of debate by both members here, instructors, police officers, the military, and even members of the media about whether firing mechanisms should included additional safeties, whether it be additional force such as in a DA/SA pistol or the manipulation of an added mechanical device like an external safety. This debate has been ongoing for decades. I expect a shooter at some point in his/her time as a shooter to wonder about safety and whether all designs are equal. No doubt you can bring up the "keep your booger hook off the trigger" argument, but the reality is other designs do require more force or more steps to discharge a firearm. I don't think that makes them inherently safer nor is there any firearm I would leave accessible to a child, but I completely understanding someone asking if some designs are safer as those designs are championed as such.

Make no mistakes here. I have no tolerance for leaving firearms in reach of unsupervised children, loaded or not, as was the entire point of my first post. I am a big proponent of safes and bedside lockboxes. What I fail to agree with is your assertion that the OP's question is akin to incompetence and should make us question whether he should have the right to own a firearm. To me the OP's question is that of a concerned father and gun owner seeking to do all within his power to prevent a firearm related incident/injury.

[JohnKSa]

Do you feel 100% safe with a chambered firearm that can go "boom" at the press of a trigger around young kids? I have never, ever, ever, had my striker-fire firearm come out of its IWB holster, but I got too close for comfort today, and it's got me thinking. To be fair, I think that we carry "just in case", and that line of thinking has me considering a semi-auto with external safeties of some kind for the same "just in case" thinking with my younger kids.Relying on an external safety to child safe a firearm is unwise.

By "unwise", I mean it's a really, REALLY bad strategy.

The type of gun and what kinds of controls it is equipped with has no bearing on whether or not it's child safe. Guns are not child safe. Guns without manual safeties are not child safe. Guns with manual safeties are not child safe.

[kilimanjaro]

Consider you don't need a chambered round at home.

[cougar gt-e]

Consider you don't need a chambered round at home.


Home invasion robberies are on the rise. You NEED one chambered AND the gun on your hip at home as well as when you're out. The chances of attack are essentially identical in the home or out and about.

[JDBerg]

You need to make a firearm safe around kids in your home regardless of the type of firearm it is. I can say there was never a chance of a ND with my guns when my Son was in the house.

[Homerboy]

The anti-safety people always use the phrase "relying on a safety to prevent ND's is a bad idea". Who's relying on a safety? A manual safety makes ND's, LESS LIKELY, because an additional step is required to make the weapon fire. Of course training, supervision, and proper holsters are extremely important. Guns without manual safeties are not child-safe, I agree. But they are child-SAFER. I would bet the 2 year old who killed her mother in Walmart when she got her hands on the mother's M&P Shield from her purse did not disengage any safety. I bet it was either the no safety model or the gun was carried off safe.

But I have seen way too many stupid people with guns. And since the odds of an ND are MUCH HIGHER than forgetting to use a safety in a real life or death situation, I choose to only own semi auto's with manual safeties. I do own two striker fired guns, a Ruger SR9 and a Ruger LC9-S. Both with manual safety and mag disconnect.

And yes, striker fired guns are generally more likely to be the ones involved in ND's. Especially the Glock, that requires you to pull the trigger to field strip. People ren't perfect. They make mistakes.

[Walt Sherrill]

What's being overlooked late in this discussion is that one of the folks involved in this discussion (P71pilot) -- one who seemed put off by being told he needs to lock up his weapon when he wasn't in personal control -- has begun to rethink his position.

P71pilot, after apologizing for an earlier "snarky" response as the result of a bad day at work, wrote "I appreciate the suggestions and concern, I will rethink my current home defense setup."

In this sort of discussion, that's a big change -- and at least he's looking at his original position from a different perspective.

Anyone commenting after having read THAT comment, is just piling on... That said, I know that not everyone reads to the end before of the current responses before posting their comments. I've been guilty of THAT bad practice from time to time, and then I see things that later make me want to (or actually) adjust my response...

.

[jmr40]

My thoughts.

Glocks are my preferred handgun, but I use the same procedure with any handgun. If a round is chambered and the gun is on my person in a holster it is perfectly safe. At any other time there is no round in the chamber on any of my semi's but there is usually a loaded magazine in the gun. I don't keep the chambers loaded on revolvers either unless I'm in control of them.

My kids are grown now, but I have three grand kids ages 3-8. I've always felt a revolver was easy enough for any kid to figure out if the chambers are loaded. And while I always made every effort to keep the guns and kids separate. But I felt that by the time they were strong enough to work the slide and chamber a round in one of the semi's. they were old enough to know better. My oldest grandchild at age 8 can't do it. But she has been around guns enough to know and understand the consequences.

In the event that a handgun is needed quickly in the home it is FASTER to pick up a handgun and chamber a round than it is to remove the gun from a holster that you aren't wearing and get it into play even if a round is chambered.

[44 AMP]

Home invasion robberies are on the rise. You NEED one chambered AND the gun on your hip at home as well as when you're out. The chances of attack are essentially identical in the home or out and about.

If that's what you need, I'm not going to argue with you. I don't live your life, and you don't live mine. I do take exception to the last line, as I do not believe the odds are essentially equal in home or out and about, for everyone.

Sure, for some folks, the odds are like that. For others, vastly different. I think that there is a big difference in the level of risk, depending on where you live, because of the "society" you live in.

There's more than just a little bit of difference between living several miles from even a small town, where there may be 100 people in a 5 mile radius and living inner city where they may be 100 people in your apartment building, and a dozen or more such buildings within a 5 mile radius.

Home invasions do happen in the rural areas too. It NOT something to be ignored. It may be much less likely, but they do happen.

And that brings us back around to kids and guns. Tragedies out number the triumphs, is what we all hear, but is that the actual reality? Personally I think every household that has children and guns, where NO ONE ever gets shot to be a "triumph", but that kind of thing isn't news. You never see a report, let alone a headline that says "300 million guns in America shot no one last year" or anything like that. Its just not newsworthy.

While the details have faded a bit in my memory, I recall not too many years ago hearing about a young girl (12, maybe 14) home alone, who foiled a home invasion, and drove off a pair of thugs (men with criminal histories), by shooting (at least) one of them with a shotgun.

The fact that the "kid" had a gun, prevented a burglary, and very possibly prevented a rape, kidnapping and likely a murder.

She knew there was a loaded gun in the house. She knew where it was. She knew it wasn't locked up. She got to it, and most importantly, SHE KNEW HOW TO USE IT!

That didn't stay in the news very long. It went away as a news item as soon as they had some dope head gang banger leave an illegally possessed, loaded gun under the mattress where his girl friend's preschooler found it and shot her baby brother...and sadly they didn't have to wait long for such a news item to happen.

[racedawg]

Had a friend of mine a cop said drop a glock run like hell...those type guns I believe dangerous that's why you see cops shooting thereselves trigger is way too light that's why I like a gun with a heavy pull less accidents and if you have kids keep gun unloaded and a gun lock or safe..cop around here left his gun out unfortunately a kid got it killed his self

[Limnophile]

A pistol with an external affirmative safety is safer, albeit not absolutely safe. There are other options, already mentioned:

- Get a holster with good retention, such as a strap or a lock.
- Carry Condition 3.
- Train you kids in safe gun handling at an early age (6 and 4 might be too young for handling, but general safety -- eg, see a gun don't touch and tell an adult -- can be taught to most all ages; kids need to know a gun can be deadly).

As I recall, most childhood deaths involve car accidents (make sure the buckle up appropriately), pedestrian accidents (teach them how to cross the street safely), and drowning (teach them how to swim). Teaching yourself to carry a gun safely and kids how to act around guns is, in comparison, relatively simple.

[TunnelRat]

Had a friend of mine a cop said drop a glock run like hell...those type guns I believe dangerous that's why you see cops shooting thereselves trigger is way too light that's why I like a gun with a heavy pull less accidents and if you have kids keep gun unloaded and a gun lock or safe..cop around here left his gun out unfortunately a kid got it killed his self


I don't think were you to drop a pistol and have it discharge that you could outrun the bullet. That said, Glocks are relatively drop safe. The reason for the negligent discharges with police is often related to departments switching pistols with different manuals of arms and/or a lack of training. Let's not forgot too that part of the reason we here about it in relation to Glocks so much is the prevalence in the law enforcement community.

[johnwilliamson062]

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to lock my bedroom door, or else I would, and eliminate this "risk" all together.
Installing a key lock door knob can be a bit of a hassle the first time through, but it takes very minimal tools and skill level to accomplish. Keyed trigger locks can also be installed in the morning and removed when you return home quite easily.

OTOH:
I keep my cordless circular saw in my garage with battery installed. No one seems to think that is crazy.
Small 10" chain saw also.
A kid could walk up to my 2 HP lathe or table saw and turn either on.
I wish I could find a young kid who could start my cord start gas chipper. I'd pay a few bucks each time not to be bothered with it :)

I try to purchase holsters that will easily retain the firearm while I am inverted. Kydex with a button is my preference. Also for knives(mostly limited to dive knives). Of course, my preferred IWB holster does not ave that feature, but s far more comfortable. In your shoes I might go with a less comfortable or OWB holster. I really think the key here is holster, not gun.

[Limnophile]

Home invasion robberies are on the rise.

How do you know? The FBI does not keep statistics on home invasions to my knowledge.

If someone breaks into your home while you're not there, that's a burglary, a nonviolent property crime. If they break in while you are there that's a home invasion, but the crime is categorized by what specific violent crime is committed -- robbery, murder, rape, or assault.

I'm speculating, but my guess is most violent crime victims are not at home when they are victimized, as it is easier for a criminal to prey upon those who are out and about. Also, a number of violent crimes at home do not involved forced entry; thus, they cannot be regarded as home invasions.

[Brit]

All my firearms are in a safe, except the one I carry. At 80 years of age, with a bright, fit, 71-year-old Wife, my Glock 19 is loaded, always. With a round chambered.

It is in my pocket now, I left the bedroom with it, it will go back on my bedside table when I return (mostly 6 hours is all I sleep at one go) Grandkids arrive! No round chambered, till they go. But my pistol is in the holster also.

I carry a lock back knife, it is sharp as a razor, that stays clipped inside my pants pocket. Also not something to be left accessible to children.

In living in Florida, we have freedoms that were not available in Canada.
We do not abuse those freedoms, we wish to keep them.

Even more important, Grand Kids will not be in danger in our home, as much as we can prevent accidents, of any nature.

[45_auto]

I carry a lock back knife, it is sharp as a razor, that stays clipped inside my pants pocket. Also not something to be left accessible to children.

Do you also lock up all of your kitchen knives, or do you just ensure that the edges are dull and they don't have a point?

[zincwarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brit
I carry a lock back knife, it is sharp as a razor, that stays clipped inside my pants pocket. Also not something to be left accessible to children.
Do you also lock up all of your kitchen knives, or do you just ensure that the edges are dull and they don't have a point?
Yes actually, when they were small and grabby, we had the kidproof latches on all access cabinet or drawer doors. ;)

This thread seems to have gotten hostile for no clear reason.

[adamBomb]

Home invasion robberies are on the rise. You NEED one chambered AND the gun on your hip at home as well as when you're out. The chances of attack are essentially identical in the home or out and about.

There are way too many variables to make this claim. I live in a gated neighborhood and there is no way the chances of home invasion are the same in my neighborhood as they are when I walk around in the city nearby that has gangs, tons of crime, etc. I am not saying it cant happen but the chances are definitely not the same.

Installing a key lock door knob can be a bit of a hassle the first time through, but it takes very minimal tools and skill level to accomplish

This is exactly what I have done. I have a closet in my office that is locked with a key. All of my guns are inside it. All of the ammo is locked with combo locks inside this closet except my for my home defense and carry guns. I actually just bought another lock for my office door and am just going to start locking that door as well when I leave and the only key will be on my keychain with me at all times.

[Dashunde]

I'll skip the multitude of ways a kid could get hurt with a gun, along with all of the hypothetical nuances regarding the tactical disadvantages of carrying a gun with a safety.
Splitting all those hairs is a waste of time.

Kids are very quick and eager to help... if one lands on the ground they will probably beat you to it.
Worse yet, it might not even be your kid.

If your concerned with a kid getting ahold of it - and everyone with kids and friends around should be - then go with a semi-auto with a safety that'll give you a few extra seconds.

[Pond, James Pond]

we do need better firearm intelligence testing at sells.

Appeasement of the electorate with pseudo-fixes.

I have met very intelligent people who had almost no common sense when it came to practical matters. The two may often go hand in hand, but not always....

It would make more sense for there to be public awareness campaigns.

[Brit]

45 Auto.

I have been a member here since January 29, 2005, and I have never insulted any one yet, and I do not need your rudeness, I doubt if any one else does either.

[zincwarrior]

45 Auto.

I have been a member here since January 29, 2005, and I have never insulted any one yet, and I do not need your rudeness, I doubt if any one else does either.

Would you have that cocked and locked or Isreali carry Brit? The wife still goes with chamber empty. I figured thats better than nothing, and the other option would be nice (and maybe a baseball bat adjustment as I had mentioned it one too many times)

[Brit]

Quote:
45 Auto.

I have been a member here since January 29, 2005, and I have never insulted any one yet, and I do not need your rudeness, I doubt if any one else does either.

Zinc.

Would you have that cocked and locked or Isreali carry Brit? The wife still goes with chamber empty. I figured thats better than nothing, and the other option would be nice (and maybe a baseball bat adjustment as I had mentioned it one too many times)

The gun in purse, with all the Lady Junk? If I could get my Wife to carry, she thinks the G43 9mm, better with chamber empty (Little kid proof!) in the cart, in Publix.

I have watched Israeli El Al staff draw/ready/and fire multiple shots, real well done (not for me though) 15 in the mag, one in the chamber for this old guy.