I think I want a new CCW

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've been carrying a Hi-Power on and off for over 20 years now, with regular carry for the last 15 years. Lately, everytime I shoot almost any pistol I am overcome with a powerful urge to replace the Hi-Power. I shoot my Glock 26, I think "I need to buy a 19 and retire the Hi-Power." I run a few rounds through an M&P or USP and I have that same feeling of a hungry guy in the grocery store who just wants to buy everything he sees.

I have a lot of love for the Hi-Power; but I like to shoot - and my Hi-Powers just require too much work and attention to keep running as high volume shooters. Worse, a lot of the work is old-school hand-fitted gunsmithing that I am not competent at. You can't just drop the new part in a Hi-Power and call it good.

Then I read about somebody's 100k Glock, or the HK45 that went 50k with no stoppages and a single spring breakage, and I think why am I beating my brains out on a pistol that at 37k has had the barrel, slide stop, firing pin retaining plate, ejector, extractor, and recoil spring guide replaced due to breakage?

So I'm seriously looking for a new piece. I'd like something slim (less or close to 1.3"). Something that can be carried SA cocked & locked or a constant-action type trigger. I want it in 9mm with a minimum capacity of 15rds. I don't want something bigger than 1911 size or as small as a Glock 26. Bonus points if Milt Sparks makes a Versa-Max 2 for it.

Right now, the three big contenders are Glock 19, S&W M&P9, and USP.

Part of the decision is I can't decide if I want a cheaper pistol that will need a little more work; but I can probably work on myself - or an expensive pistol that will last a long time; but need parts made from unobtainium and a mechanical engineering degree when something does eventually break.

So, anything I am overlooking? Anybody had similar thoughts or experiences?

[zincwarrior]

I would add CZ as some of theirs have a cocked and locked option, and XDM as a direct comparable to Glock and M&P.

Physically go to a store and try the ones you described in your hand.

What is its use for?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It will be used for concealed carry on a daily basis, as well as regular training, classes and the odd, informal IPSC/IDPA-style competition.

I looked at some CZ options; but at the end of the day I just felt like I was going to have the same maintenance issues I already had with the Hi-Power to keep the CZ running in high volume shooting. That's also why I didn't consider a custom 1911 double-stack type pistol.

I'm not interested in the XD.

[AK103K]

Sounds like its Glock then. Or M&P or HK or....:)

Id recommend trying a 17 as well as the 19. I have both, and really dont see the point to the 19's.

The 17 is basically the same size as the HP (actually a tad smaller), and are great shooters.

[Frank Ettin]

I've always liked the Browning, and I've been a 1911 guy for some time. But I understand your view point and have been working with a Glock 19 for a while now.

There's a lot that I like about the Glock 19, and one thing I really don't like. With my small hands it's manageable -- but just barely. I'd prefer a little less of a handful. And for that reason mine is now at ROBAR having a grip reduction (and a few other things). We'll see how that works out.

I do prefer the 19 to the 17. I find the slightly short length is just a bit "handier", and it seems to point better for me. I also prefer the Commander size in a 1911.

[DubC-Hicks]

I can't recommend the Glock 19 highly enough. I love mine.

But also consider the CZ P-07. Has cocked and locked option, or decocker option. I don't think it will require the heavy maintenance that you think it will. They get very good reviews, and the ones I've seen just keep on running.

[sigarms228]

Right now, the three big contenders are Glock 19, S&W M&P9, and USP.

I would say you have done well with your research.

Another possibility I would recommend checking out is the HK P2000 with the LEM trigger if you think the LEM trigger would work for you. HK P2000 can also be bought new in the $640 range these days. The HK P30 can also be purchase with a safety as in the P30S model but that is more in the $870 price range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Go3bgtoj8

http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/p2000

http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/p30/

Todd Green's endurance test of the HK P30 which he ended at 91,622 rounds

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

[Spats McGee]

Glock 19, S&W M&P9, and USP
Your top 3 are all strong contenders.

Having zero experience with 2 of them, I'll confine my remarks to the one pistol with which I do have some experience, to the tune of almost 3 years and ~1500 rounds. There's a lot to like about it. As far as I can tell, it meets your numerical requirements: <1.3" wide, 15 rounds. IIRC, it's ~23 oz unloaded, ~30 loaded.

When I went on the hunt for a polymer 9, the G19 just came out as the best combination of price & features. Part of my thinking was also "If I hate it (which I kind of expected to do), I can sell it. There will ALWAYS be a market for Glocks." Suffice it to say I haven't sold it. She gets way more carry time than anything else.

One of the things I really like is the simplicity. Something like 35 total parts. Once I've cleared it, I can field strip it in EASILY less than 10 seconds. I've even stripped the slide to clean the firing pin channel. I did have one spring break at about 400 rounds, but I replaced it myself (watching a YouTube video), and she's run like a champ since then. If *I* can do these things, you can, too.

With all of that said, whether you like how it fits in your hand … that's a separate question.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've had a Glock 26 since 2000-ish (I talked about the purchase here so it is in the archives somewhere) and have about 7200 rounds through it. I shoot Glocks as well as my Hi-Power, though I usually need to do some transition training first as the trigger gives me trouble if I haven't shot it in awhile. I like their stone cold reliability and simplicity. They feel awkward to me; but they shoot OK. Also, if I put a scratch in my Hi-Power, it bugs me. But honestly, as long as the Glock works I don't care. I've got more emotional attachment to my gas grill. Plus I already have Glock holsters, accessories, etc. It seems like the most rational choice; but also the one I least want to make.

I shoot both the M&P and the USP better. The M&P feels more natural in my hand and I generally like it better, though it some have a false reset that bugs me. It also has the best ergos/controls of the three. About as accurate as the Glock - a little faster to first shot; but a bit slower on splits.

The USP is just scary accurate. You could shoot a dime with it at 7yds. The controls are a bit awkward for me and I can't use my thumb to hit the magazine release so there is a lot of muscle memory down the drain. On the other hand, being able to rapid fire one-hole groups with it at moderate speed* is fun.

*That speed where the public ranges here give me nasty looks but don't kick me out or verbally reprimand me for firing too fast.

[AK103K]

*That speed where the public ranges here give me nasty looks but don't kick me out or verbally reprimand me for firing too fast.
In other words, agonizingly slow? :D

[9x45]

OP, I have run more than 170,000 rounds thru my 2 pin G17. That's the definition of reliable. We had a range gun at the academy that went over 300K, 15 years ago, nothing beats a Glock for longevity.

[vyse.04]

My vote is for the USP (or Compact). There has to be a reason you carried the HP for so long without succumbing to the striker fired handguns. At the very least you're able to carry the USP like your HP, even if other dimensions/controls are different. FWIW, HK is one of two brands (Sig) I've owned that have never failed to shoot... Had problems with my Gen 4 G26 initially, but it has been great after the first 200 rounds.

[Spats McGee]

So, Bart, about the simplicity of Glocks.... I saw your posts about owning a G26. For ~15 years. Honest, I did …:o

No doubt but that Glocks, generally, run reliably. That said, I do not see a whole lot of S&W or HK owners crying foul because their guns don't. The S&W M&P9c was a strong contender for me. As much as I liked the feel of the full-sized M&P in my hand, the c version uses a mag extension to extend the grip. I haven't found one gun yet that uses that design & feels solid in my hand.

As I said, all 3 of your contenders are solid. For some, Glocks just have "a face that only a mother could love."

[ritepath]

M&P, Sig, HK, CZ....all great choices.

[drobs]

Another vote for the Glock 19. For some odd reason I shoot the 19 better than the 17. I shoot the 26 equally as well but find with a +2 magazine on the 26 that the grip is almost just as long as the 19 w/ standard magazine.

I've tried M&P's - OK but the factory trigger on the M&P (to me at least) is not as "good" as the Glock trigger.

Had a USP 45 - didn't care for it. Sights were too tall for me causing all my shots to go way low. Traded it to a buddy who shot excellently with it.

[WaltherRuger]

I've shot my CZ's a fair amount and haven't had to do any more maintenance than my other guns. I like the fact that I can work on them and parts are cheap. The only reason I've worked on them is that I chose to modify them. They weren't broke.

Despite my forum name, I have moved to HK and CZ for the most part.
Right now, I'm torn between keeping my HKs or my CZs.
HK has the reputation for not breaking, but parts are much more expensive than for the CZ.

I would trust them both to be very reliable and durable.

[JDBerg]

...I'd recommend trying a 17 as well as the 19. I have both, and really dont see the point to the 19's.

The 17 is basically the same size as the HP (actually a tad smaller), and are great shooters.

I have a BHP and it is a great classic and iconic pistol. If you have one that you can spend $ on to have it properly tuned with the right upgrades and modifications, you have a great range gun that you can carry, so it can be used any way you want to use it. I also have my Gen3 Glock 17 that is a great full-sized gun that I can carry and shoot well straight out of the box.

Another possibility I would recommend checking out is the HK P2000 with the LEM trigger if you think the LEM trigger would work for you. HK P2000 can also be bought new in the $640 range these days. The HK P30 can also be purchase with a safety as in the P30S model but that is more in the $870 price range.

Absolutely spot-on about the HK "P" guns, my current CW is a P30 9mm V3 DA/SA trigger variant, this is as reliable & accurate as the day is long. And I plan on getting a P2000 V2 LEM trigger variant, which IMHO, could be the ideal CCW to own.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've shot my CZ's a fair amount

Have you fired any single CZ over 20,000 rounds? I mean, this Hi-Power was basically flawless for its first 13,000 rounds (and the first 7,000 after custom work). 13,000-23,000 had some troubles. 23,000-36,000 were trouble-free, and now it looks like I'm starting a new cycle of "Will it go bang?"

So, while I certainly don't want any pistol that isn't making it a few thousand rounds without parts breaking, I'm also not real confident that making it a few thousand rounds without parts breaking is an indicator the pistol is good for my particular volume of shooting.

[WaltherRuger]

I see your point. My Walther P99 "broke" at about 10,000 rounds. Though Walther replaced it, it made me wonder. Indeed, I doubt the average gun owner shoots more than 5,000 rounds through their weapon during their ownership.

Other than CZ's reputation for broken trigger return springs (which does happen to many), I think they are very durable.

On another note, I reload and each 9 mm round costs me about 13 cents. Even at that cheap cost, 20,000 rounds comes to $2,600. That's more than 4 CZs cost. at 20 cents a round, you're talking $4,000. At any rate, the ammo is costing you much more than your firearm. I'm probably only pushing 10,000 rounds through my CZ 75BD and less in my P-01.

Your BHP may be past it's serviceable life; guess it depends on how well you like it, to keep it running.

[AK103K]

shoot well straight out of the box.
Ever since I got tired with fiddling with the 1911's, this has pretty much been my mantra.

SIG's did that for me, and now, so have the Glocks. Open the box, load the mags, and have at it.


While I did shoot my SIG's quite a bit, Ive been shooting my Glocks even more, and so far, they seem to be related to the Energizer Bunny, more so than anything else Ive used. They just keep on running, and running, and with minimal care. My one 17 just passed 95,000 this week, and so far, all that has broken, has been a trigger spring, and that was only about 5-6000 rounds ago. The only other thing Ive done, is change out the RSA twice a year or so.

Whats really nice about them is, other than maybe some odd and pretty much unheard of catastrophic failure of a major part, I can actually do 99% of the work on them myself at my kitchen table. The parts (mags included here) are dirt cheap, and there are very few of them to have to worry about.

Ive worked on my SIG's, and they really werent all that hard, but they are a lot more complicated and have a lot more parts. I can pretty much completely take my Glocks down with a simple punch.

Theres no doubt too, that the Glocks have a much more broad support system than pretty much anything else. Im not into a lot of customization, nor do I stray much from the "out of the box" guns, but if its your thing, there isnt anything else thats got that much versatility. Especially when it comes to doing the work by yourself.

[sigarms228]

HK has the reputation for not breaking, but parts are much more expensive than for the CZ.


Where are you getting your HK parts?? Brownells and HK service have parts for almost half what other places sell them for. I just bought the light FPBS for my P30LS and it was $3.99. Shipping was double the part LOL. So I bought some other springs because they were only $3.99 also just to have. Even the P30 recoil spring assembly is only $57 at Brownells. That still may sound like a lot but that part is engineered for a minimum life of 25,000 rounds.

I like my CZ a lot but for long term reliability and durability I will go with one of my HKs every day. For most people it is not the price of a part that is a concern anyway. The concern is not having your weapon available when you need it.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I'm stuck. I know I can make any one of those three work; and I've got a good idea what the most practical solution is; but even though the USP is the most expensive/least practical solution, I really like that result of just drilling holes where I want them to appear (once I get over its awkward pointing and not being able to hit the mag or slide release with my thumb).

Are there any other suggestions out there for high volume shooters?

P.S. Tried a P30. Not fond of that trigger at all (factory DA/SA). Points a lot more naturally than the USP, though oddly enough I was less accurate with it than any other pistol mentioned.

Practically, it is either the Glock 19 or M&P. I really like the tank-like durability and reliability of the USP and the great accuracy. Wish it didn't have so many negatives in the ergonomics department.

[Evil Monkey]

Glock: "look at him. I can't believe he has to think about it."

Ms. Glock: "Pfft...I know. What a loser, hahahaha!"

http://www.abcpix.net/Story_Verzeichnis/gaston_glock_85/images/ABCpix.net_gaston_glock_85-05.JPG

[JDBerg]

P.S. Tried a P30. Not fond of that trigger at all (factory DA/SA)

Agree that the heavy factory DA pull on the P30 V3 trigger frankly kinda sux. Mine wasn't great when it was new but it's gotten better since I've had it.

But this afternoon, I was dry-firing a P2000 with a V3 DA/SA trigger at Cabelas and I couldn't believe how nice the DA and SA triggerpull on this gun was! Much better than my P30! It's a shame it was a .40S&W when I want a 9mm. The lugnut counter guy wouldn't even check to see if I could order a 9mm P2000 V2 LEM trigger.

Doesn't hurt a little to go pull the trigger on a few P2000's at your LGS, you might get lucky & find a counter jockey who actually has a clue about HK P-Guns!

[Bart Noir]

In the USP you can get both of the desired trigger systems. And the LEM requires a long-ish release of the trigger after each, just like a BHP. You'll feel right at home :D

For many (perhaps all) of the polymer H&K pistols, by which I mean those using the paddle for releasing the magazine, you can buy a larger paddle from H&K. I think it is the same part for all of those. It makes a difference for using the thumb to release. I just twist the pistol in my firing hand the same as I do with a 1911 and many others. Then the thumb pushes down instead of straight sideways. As they say, "works for me".

If you are looking at the Glock 19, be sure to consider the Gen4 version. The new recoil spring makes it even nicer to shoot and the new grip shape makes it better for us 1911 lovers. I bought the first one I actually got to hold and very much like that pistol, and didn't install any of the 4 add-on grip panels. It was just right without them.

Bart Noir

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Although I can shoot a Hi-Power well (and fast), I won't miss that long, soft reset. My speed shooting strategy is basically to just slap that trigger like it owes me money :D

All of the pistols are a noticeable improvement over that, though I liked the M&P best.

[BarkSlayer]

CZ P-01. Look no further.

[Bart Noir]

My handling of CZ pistols showed me that the Omega trigger is a better one than the regular trigger setup. Shorter pull, lighter, crisper, that sort of thing.

I seem to remember there was some downside to the Omega trigger, but I am not sure what it was. It may be that it is not offered with a decocking mode, which I really like in a DA/SA hammer gun. Some CZ models have a frame-mounted safety which also decocks.

But if you want to carry cocked and locked, that should not matter.

I guess as a CC gun the AR pistol is just too large for Bartholomew :p

Bart Noir

[TunnelRat]

My handling of CZ pistols showed me that the Omega trigger is a better one than the regular trigger setup. Shorter pull, lighter, crisper, that sort of thing.



I seem to remember there was some downside to the Omega trigger, but I am not sure what it was. It may be that it is not offered with a decocking mode, which I really like in a DA/SA hammer gun. Some CZ models have a frame-mounted safety which also decocks.



But if you want to carry cocked and locked, that should not matter.



I guess as a CC gun the AR pistol is just too large for Bartholomew :p



Bart Noir


Actually a big selling point of the Omega trigger on the P-07 and P-09 is that the user can swap between decocker and safety. It comes with the conversion parts (some of the P-07 Duty models only came with one or the other). I remember hearing at some point that the downside to the Omega was that while it was better than the stock trigger pull, it couldn't be tuned quite as nicely as the stock trigger, but I haven't tried that personally.

[TunnelRat]

Agree that the heavy factory DA pull on the P30 V3 trigger frankly kinda sux. Mine wasn't great when it was new but it's gotten better since I've had it.



But this afternoon, I was dry-firing a P2000 with a V3 DA/SA trigger at Cabelas and I couldn't believe how nice the DA and SA triggerpull on this gun was! Much better than my P30! It's a shame it was a .40S&W when I want a 9mm. The lugnut counter guy wouldn't even check to see if I could order a 9mm P2000 V2 LEM trigger.



Doesn't hurt a little to go pull the trigger on a few P2000's at your LGS, you might get lucky & find a counter jockey who actually has a clue about HK P-Guns!


I always felt the same about the P2000s and P30s I owned. The P2000 can be had new for low $600 these days. It also uses USP Compact magazines that you can find on CDNN at times for $20. Compared to the magazine prices of other HK pistols that's a bargain.