Game Defense Caliber and Rifle

[IlikePuppiesAlot]

Hi,
Long time reader but first time poster. I am excited to have a question to present to the community and look forward to your responses. I have a question on the proper caliber rifle to purchase. I am extensively experienced with handguns. I have been heavily interested and owned firearms for the past seven years. I reload for my revolvers and have shot in local matches and events with everything from 1911’s Model 15’s, 19’s and Glocks. Also, I have a British Enfield which I have used only once. I have also never hunted. With bolt, lever, and single shot rifles I feel lost in the selection and calibers. I tell you this not to be a tooth sucker, but so that you can understand my experience level.

I live in Florida and would like to take to the natural trails. I have always dreamed of visiting different states and remote natural areas. I would like some advice for what caliber firearm to purchase. I would not carry the firearm for hunting purposes, but so that I may defend myself from a predator. Also while unfamiliar with the legal structure of the states, I would like to purchase something that with confidence (both legally and firepower wise) I could bring to any state in Northern America. Most times I hope to have a vehicle of some sort but I am sure that at many times I will be walking about or ahead of the vehicle.

I have concerns about affordability of the rifle. I would like to keep the price under 1000 dollars if possible and with time I would reload for the caliber. I rarely purchase new guns so I would like to look at a used market unless there is a consensus that for heavier calibers it is preferred to have some sort of manufacturer’s warranty. My initial impressions from some research I have done brought me to look closer at the .416 Rigby caliber. However, some people whom I have spoken with say that this is overkill and suggested alternative calibers such as 300 Win Mag. Though when I did some research it seemed there were some articles and opinions which lend that it 300 win mag is an adequate caliber but not preferred. Whereas I have been able to find no such opinions on the 416 Rigby.

Could you please provide your thoughts on calibers and rifles?

I value everyone's opinion and look forward to learning. Thank you in advance!

[DaleA]

I'll play.

First welcome to TFL.

Since you're not hunting and are concerned about defense in the great outdoors have you given any consideration to a 12 gauge shotgun?

Slugs and different shot sizes make a shotgun a very versatile choice for outdoor defense. Slugs will even do for our perennial favorite predator the bear...(gosh, haven't had a good bear thread around here for maybe a week...):D Really no offense but just do a search on 'bear' and you'll get tons of information here---and of course the other fav which is snakes.

You can practice a lot with a shotgun shooting trap and skeet and get really comfortable with the gun. A round or two of trap (25 shots per round) in an evening can be enjoyable. And if you've got the money you can do that weekly or even a couple times a week.

I think a .416 Rigby would be a terrible choice for a first rifle.

[jmr40]

There are a handful of really large brown bear along the coast of Alaska that might require a really large caliber gun. Even those are easily taken with a 30-06. In fact the Alaska game and fish recommends 30-06 loaded with 200 gr or heavier bullets for most people for large bear protection.

If someone can handle the recoil they found 375 magnum and up to be slightly better at stopping a charge, but nothing in between 30-06 and 375 was any better than 30-06. This included rounds such as 300 mag, 338 mag, 350 mag, and 45-70. At least 2 prominent gun writers and guides in both Alaska and Africa conducted similar tests and reached the same conclusion.

If you rule out the 1000 lb brown bear anything larger than 30-06 is a waste of time. It and even much less powerful rounds are more than enough for anything else that will you will need to defend yourself against. Your enfield will work. Most black bear are in the 200-400 weight range, grizzlies, 250-500. Grizz just aren't that much bigger than typical black bear, but are far more aggressive. Many people confuse them with their brown bear cousins which get much larger. There are only handful of places in N America where you'd see either.

Be realistic about where you will actually go and the real threats. A 416 would come in handy for stopping an elephant charge, but is way overkill for anything else. A 30 lb wild dog is a far more likely threat.

Personally for me a light handy bolt rifle with a low powered scope such as a 1-4X in either 308 or 30-06 is plenty. If I were going to be on the SE coast of Alaska I might spend the money for a 375. But would probably just load some heavier bullets for the 30-06 and call it good.

[IlikePuppiesAlot]

@dalea - Sure I have a mossberg 500ag I could see what different ammunition I could pick up. I will do some Bear searches and see what pops up. As far as snakes go I'm thinkin some decent boots and a pair pants should get me past that hurtle... However I have heard of some pretty big Burmese Pythons :eek:

Strike one for buying a new gun...

@jmr40 - so in a nut shell what I am reading is that I do not need to buy any more new (to me) guns? ...how is this possible. I didn't ever think this day would come :(

----
In all seriousness though I appreciate the both of your replies, thought, and advice! If any more thoughts pop up about the subject make sure to drop me a line!

Best,

puppies

[Pond, James Pond]

I would say that if not a pump shotgun, perhaps something like a strong lever-action in a serious calibre that can put several rounds on target in a relatively short space of time: .45-70? .444 Marlin? They're supposed to be heavy hitters, loaded hot-ish.

[Model12Win]

My vote goes to the .375 H&H magnum. Highly versatile.

[Paul B.]

You might want to look at something like a Browning BLR in .358 Winchester. Reasonably light weight lever action with some reasonably serious thump at Self defense against things that bite with teeth and scratch with claws. I have four, the Browning mentioned, a Savage M99 and two Ruger M77s. The Savage is a great rifle but much heavier than the Browning and bolt actions are slow compared to a lever action unless you practice a lot.
Before I wrecked my knee about 14 years ago, U used to do a lot of hiking in the mountains just north of Tucson. There's a fairly good population of Mountain Lions and Black Bears and while most of the time they're not a problem, you never know. The 4.5" Ruger Super Blackhawk with a shot load fort snakes as first round up and full power 245 gr. Keith style bullets for the big and nasty and that BLR with 250 gr. Hornady round nose hand loads were a comfort if I came across a bear. Usually raising my arms and hollering like a banshee would have them scurry off.
The only real problem I ever had was running into a game warden who naturally assumed I was hunting out of season. As I did Hunter Ed classes, most wardens knew me but every once in a while I'd run into a newbie. :roll eyes: That usually ended a hike until things got squared away.
Paul B.

[emcon5]

Make sure it is belt fed, whichever you decide on.

[T. O'Heir]

Your Lee-Enfield, assuming good headspace, will kill any game in North America. Big bears included. Not that you'd ever be fast enough to recognize a threat and aim and fire. Yogi can cover 100 yards in less than 6 seconds.
"...I have a Mossberg 500ag..." Slugs. No buck shot. Buck shot, of any size, is unreliable.
The .416 Rigby is horrendously expensive and has excessive recoil. Ammo starts at over $100 per 20. Used rifles start at a grand.
"...in .358 Winchester..." Ammo is virtually non-existent.

[precision_shooter]

A good .308 auto loader, some ammo, and practice, will kill anything you want to kill. For the really big bears, multiple shots on target, which shouldn't be too hard with a good rifle and practice... No one caliber, including 12ga slugs, 416rigby, or 30-06 is a guaranteed 1-shot man-eater stopper... So for me, it's the rifle I shoot the most and am confident in being able to put rounds on target quickly, .308...

[Paul B.]

The .416 Rigby ammo I have ran $215.00 a box, Federal Premium softs and solids. At the time of purchase Hornady was not making ammo for the .416 or the .404 Jeffery so you paid the price. I still have 12 boxes. I bought 13 and shot one. It does get your attention. :roll eyes:
Paul B.

[emcon5]

It is a troll, let it go.

[Blindstitch]

I like James Ponds suggestion. I would be all over a lever 444 or 45-70.

Beyond that if you're not hunting with it you will probably never need it. Unless maybe you're in Alaska during the Salmon season fishing with the bears.

[IlikePuppiesAlot]

Thank you all very much for all of the feedback. I appreciate all the time and suggestions you each have put into your replies. Each suggestion seems viable and practical.

[The Big D]

I'm not up on the legal details in all states. In general shotguns and hunting rifles are more likely to be legal.

That said, I know for a fact that 416 Rigby is NOT the answer. It's too much gun unless you're specifically dealing with cape buffalo or elephant. Since predator defense implies short range shooting, I would go with either a .45-70 like a marlin guide gun or a 12ga shotgun with slugs. IMO the .45-70 is slightly preferable but not enough so to justify buying a new gun for this application. Their capabilities within 25-50y are very similar.

[Panfisher]

Some or maybe even many of the "natural areas" are not going to allow firearms of any kind. Be sure you check the rules before you get there. A slug loaded 12 ga. would be excellent protection if you shoot it well, handgun in decent caliber is more likely to be with you or accessible at any given time.

[skizzums]

If I am going to be hiking around long distances with a rifle, I want smal, light, practical and powerful enough. Since your talking protection and not hunting, I am assume your going to be a semi close ranges and a very low probability of even needing your gin. I would choose a .44mag mares leg. With practice, can shoot as fast as anything else, big bullets with great ballistics at closer ranges especially from the slightly longer barrel and stupid lightweight and handy. Thats just my choice, others will have different opinions, probably nobody is wrong. Shotguns a great choice, but too big for me if I am packing in and out of forests for days.

My choice is also extremely affordable, I would do research to figure out if the .44mag or .45lc is best for your uses.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/64675/redirect

[dakota.potts]

Something to consider: in Florida, it is illegal to carry a long gun except when fishing, hunting, or camping or while traveling to those things. Unless you plan on camping, you might be better off getting a large bore revolver

[Mystro]

12 gage pump is what I use and bear attacks are a real concern where I live. My dog just got attacked in July.

[emcon5]

So what predators do you think you will need to defend yourself against?

[IlikePuppiesAlot]

@emcon5: I honestly believe I will never need to use whatever the firearm may be. I try to not leave the common sense at home. However, if I had to name what would worry me the most if conflict was to arise, it would be...crocodiles and alligators. I was watching a documentary on the explosion of crocodiles in south Florida where I am located with some reportedly up to 17 feet long not to mention the 1+million gators to boot.

@mystro: I am so sorry to hear about your dog. I hope that everything turned out to be OK. Do you recommend a particular load you use in your 12ga?

@dakota.potts: Great point with special attention to the legalities. My hope is to get out for a few days and camp. I am a sucker for revolvers, I have a model 19-3 would this suffice as a proper revolver caliber choice? I could pick up some nice heavy projectiles if needed.

@skizzums: I am tempted to bring out my Henry Big Boy .44 mag. But it is just too damn pretty :(. I am see how each response is justifiable and practical. I really do appreciate everyone throwing some wood on the fire to so I can have a small but great resource to make a decision.

@Panfisher: Thanks for your response. It seems there is a gravitation towards the 12ga and compliance. ;)

@the Big D: first off that's a funny name gave me a good chuckle. I am going to have to say I really DONT think the Rigby is the medicine I am looking for especially after researching the cost of ammunition.

@blindstitch: I heard some negative things about Marlin guide guns in the past few years...do you know if this has been remedied. I will look into guide sized options in the .45-70.

@Paul B: I am speechless, I would have never thought the large calibers would be so expensive. Talk about the compounded medications of the firearm world.

[dakota.potts]

If the 19-3 is a .357 magnum like I'm reading, it will be more than sufficient. Florida deer are the size of large dogs and a good bonded bullet will be more than sufficient for hogs. The only other thing I'd be concerned about is bear, and those are really limited to a narrow area in Florida. Most would prefer a .44 magnum for black bear, but in general there are not many threats in Florida and they don't tend to be of the large variety. The only things I really feel concerned about are hogs or the possibility of an amped up deer in rut. Most things, including bears and gators, are more scared of you and are no big deal if you give them distance.

You could also get something like a Rossi Ranch Hand since it's considered a handgun and can be carried with a CWFL, but it would have to be concealed. Still, the ability to keep it in a backpack or something with a license would be beneficial over a long gun which has more restrictions. They come in .357 and .44 among other possible calibers

[Pond, James Pond]

I am tempted to bring out my Henry Big Boy .44 mag.

Given D. Potts' point about long-arms being carried, and their subsequent suggestion of a revolver, a .44Mag seems a good choice. A 4" model will be packable, concealable (to a point) yet still able to generate enough oomph compared to one of those big-bore snubs. There are umpteen models available to choose from, too.