Had a kind of Kaboom today

[FlySubCompact]

I had a pistol malfunction today. New gun. It's a Smith and Wesson MP Bodyguard 380. Ammo was factory from Summit Ammo.

Went to the range with my brother to try his new Glock and some of my stuff, too. We'd shot everything and at the end of the session I decided to get some more practice with my current carry gun. Unloaded the defensive rounds and loaded up the Summit ball. Stuff I've practiced with before.

Made it through most of the box of fifty and midway of going through one mag full that last shot jarred really hard and the magazine popped out. Put the mag on the table and checked the barrel for a lodged bullet. It was clear and from what I could tell without disassembly, the gun looked OK. About that time my brother says: "Your bleeding." Some fragment had hit the end of my nose and it was steadily dripping.

Waited until the little wound clotted and looked at the magazine. The cartridge highest in the mag was bunged up pretty good. Three distinct gouges in the projectile. Thus the reason the mag popped out of the gun.

What I'd like to know is if you guys know what kind of malfunction this was and why it happened? The only thing I can figure is maybe that one round might have been overcharged and the little Bodyguard could not handle it. This little gun ejects empties about 20 to 30 feet most times and I could not find the last one for certain. I did find a couple and the cases were severely bulged along the feed ramp area. Here's a pic of the whole shooting match:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PWVo9g8RMbA/VLw2vGz8IOI/AAAAAAAAAHs/AhQ2-1J13_8/w707-h530-no/Bodyguard%2Bfailure.jpg

If you can zoom in you can see the damaged bullet head in the mag and the two bulged cases. Glad I was wearing glasses. Was a close one.

[precision_shooter]

Good reminder to all to always wear eye protection.
Glad you are ok!

Look like some hot rounds to me and likely an overcharged round that blew out the web or the case head. I would not shoot anymore of that ammo and be contacting the MFG of the ammo to let them know what you experienced.

[44 AMP]

There are only two possibilities. The gun is at fault. The ammo is at fault.

From the picture, the rounds are grossly bulged, from either a "generously" relieved chamber (feed ramp area) OR the chamber is normal and the rounds were overpressure, causing the bulge.

What you describe is the classic case rupture, caused by either too much pressure, or not enough case head support for the pressure involved. If you could find the case, I'd bet it ruptured.

Gas dumped from a ruptured case in an auto pistol vents mostly down through the mag well, sometimes popping out the mag. One pistol I saw it happen to kept the mag body in place, and the floorplate blew off, dumping the spring, follower and remaining rounds on the ground.

Also, as you found out, there can be a small amount of "shrapnel" (fragments of case) that can come back at you from the ejection port, as well.

[Kosh75287]

Do you have a scale that's accurate within 0.1grains? You might try weighing the remainder of the ammo to see if any of them vary from the average weight by a significant amount (say, 3.5 - 5.0 grains). Use an inertial bullet-puller to pull one cartridge of average weight apart, and weigh the powder charge. Do the same with one that varies far from the average weight. Compare the powder charges. When you contact the ammo factory, your findings may be diagnostic of the overall problem.

You MAY find that there's too much variance among the weights of the individual rounds for a meaningful comparison to be made, but it would take you less than an hour to weigh them with a digital scale. In any case, I'd like to know what you find out, when you talk to Summit.

[TunnelRat]

Ammo was factory from Summit Ammo.

Was it actually new ammo, or remanufactured ammo? I have a personal gripe with the multitude of ammo makers cranking out what they call "factory remanufactured" ammunition. It's reloaded ammo. Is it better than Joe down in his basement with his press while he listens to the game? Maybe, depending on what kind of guy Joe is. Or it could be no better at all if it's a small time outfit cranking out ammo to make a buck. People will say they've had ruptured cases with true factory new ammo from the big guys, and I can't deny them. But I'm willing to bet all the money in my pockets that the failure rate is a hell of a lot lower for the big guys. To me there are two types of ammo: factor and reloaded. Reloaded can be fine, but buyer beware.

[Aguila Blanca]

What I'd like to know is if you guys know what kind of malfunction this was and why it happened? The only thing I can figure is maybe that one round might have been overcharged and the little Bodyguard could not handle it.
That sounds like a valid hypothesis to me.

Your opening post describes the ammo as "factory," but I've never heard of Summit Ammo. It may come out of a "factory" of some sort, but from where I sit it bears all the hallmarks of cheap, remanufactured ammo that should never be trusted. Is it purported to be new production, or is it remanufactured (i.e. "factory") reloads? What's the headstamp? If they don't have their own headstamp, IMHO it doesn't qualify as "factory" ammo.

{Edit to add} Found their web site. Very amateurish, and offers no real information. What it does tell us, though, is that they are remanufacturers. I wouldn't trust ammo from a company like that in any of my firearms.

[skizzums]

you need to take the barrel out and see if the rounds are seating fully into the chamber. I am not 100% familiar with your gun, but it seems like too much of the case is being left unsupported. glad your okay

if I had to take a gues, I would say the gun is at fault and if you are not very familiar with guns, let your smith take a look t it and then call s&w. such a low pressure round, I find it hard to believe that even an overcharged round would bulge cases like that if they are being properly supported

[chris in va]

I got on the Summit website, no mention of it being remanufactured.

But there's a simple way to find out. If the box has different headstamps, they are reloads.

Keep the case, call Summit. It's defective.

[Brotherbadger]

First off, glad to see you're ok. Great reminder to everybody to always wear eye protection.

Now, first thing I'd do is contract summit. Next, take the gun to a Smith and have it looked over.

[skizzums]

summit is not re-manufacture, I use it occasional, they make some rifle rounds that aren't always easy to find. in my experience with them, they make good ammo, loaded on the hotter side

i'll add that I think it's is a longshot to be pointing blame at the ammo. it seems almost obvious that this is a chamber problem and the fact that this is the first outing with the pistol further concretes that belief. can you show us a picture of the dis-assembled barrel with a round in it? and more specifically, where the feed ramp contacts with the chamber

[ritepath]

The box looks like something the Chinese would print up....I notice they also make 50BMG.

[marine6680]

Over pressure ammo.

Unsupported case from a poorly cut chamber.

Firing out of battery.


Those are three things that can cause a bulged case or rupture.

Knowing how the rounds sit in the chamber will help.

[Cheapshooter]

]New gun[/U]. It's a Smith and Wesson MP Bodyguard 380. Ammo was factory from Summit Ammo.

I decided to get some more practice with my current carry gun. Unloaded the defensive rounds and loaded up the Summit ball. Stuff I've practiced with before.


New gun? My current carry? Practiced with before?
OK, let's try to sort this out a bit.
Was the gun new, and unfired before you shot this ammo in it?
If so, you mean you carry a brand new gun without any amount of "break in", or testing?
You practiced with this ammo in other guns? Or you practiced with this ammo in this gun, meaning it was not "New" at the time of the kaboom?

So now, if you have practiced with this gun, and this ammo, has there ever been any other signs of a problem? If you have practiced with this gun with other ammo, has there been any sign of a problem?
Seems if there was a problem with the gun it would have shown up during previous shooting.

summit is not re-manufacture, I use it occasional, they make some rifle rounds that aren't always easy to find. in my experience with them, they make good ammo, loaded on the hotter side
Hum??? Maybe this is why major ammo manufacturers don't push the limits of SAAMI pressure standards, and are not as "hot" of a load as some of the boutique ammo maker's ammo. A little over charge could still be within standards with a load not on the edge, but become a serious problem with a load that is.

[TunnelRat]

summit is not re-manufacture, I use it occasional, they make some rifle rounds that aren't always easy to find. in my experience with them, they make good ammo, loaded on the hotter side

I found posts online of folks using their ammo finding various headstamps. They may manufacture some ammo, but they're also reloading as well.

[Cheapshooter]

I found posts online of folks using their ammo finding various headstamps. They may manufacture some ammo, but they're also reloading as well.
Maybe they just source their new brass at the lowest cost, and use what ever they can find at a price.
Probably not the best idea to use the same load in various brands of casses if they are pushing the envelope on pressure!

[wingman]

Personally after checking website I would not use it but I'm very particular with ammo.

[FlySubCompact]

Cheapshooter,

This gun is newish. Had it for months and it has seen a lot of testing with various brands before I decided to carry it. I've already ran a few boxes of this brand of ammo before with no incident.

To the other posters,

Thanks for the replies and concern over my safety. Glasses, always were your eye protection.
This ammo does not appear to be remanufactured stuff. It carries it's own headstamp on new looking brass. My only experience and purchase of known remanufactured ammo is Zero brand. Never had a problem with Zero's stuff either, but I've only used their 9mm remanufactured ammo.

I AM NOT shooting this little gun with anything until I talk to the LGS guy where I bought the gun. He has always been fair and square in dealings with me, so I'm going to talk to him first chance about what to do. I'm also going to leave the gun, leftover ammo and magazine in it's current state so whoever (gunsmith/S&W) can evaluate the cause of the problem.

This is actually the second Bodyguard I've owned. The first one was a lemon right out of the box. It often had light primer strikes and would not lock back on final round. Took it back to LGS guy and he replaced it with this new one on the spot. Regardless of the cause of the malfunction of this particular gun, I will get a refund from someone. Either LGS guy or Smith. If it's an ammo problem, Smith and Summit can battle that one out.

Thinking I'll replace it with a Ruger LCP. I hear good reviews on it. If ammo is the determined to be the culprit no more of the Summit stuff will be purchased again.

If ammo was the cause I may eventually get another Bodyguard to try because I actually like the little pistol. The "feel" of it, how it's layed out, the looks/fit/finish and the trigger isn't atrocious as some little guns. The felt recoil is a heap better than my Keltec P3AT.

[Cheapshooter]

A DIVISION OF DOWN RANGE INC.


SUMMIT AMMUNITION:
Manufacturing & Demil Services of small caliber munitions

for Military, DoD, Law Enforcement & Civilian Applications.
Interesting, demil services, does that mean they use break down components?
Google search turns up very little about the parent company. One shows a shooting range, and another a manufacturer of shotgun wads.

[FlySubCompact]

What is "demil services"?

[Cheapshooter]

What is "demil services"?

Demilitarized

Recycled!

R-3 Program

Resource recovery & recycling of
small arms ammunition
State-of-the-art mechanical
disassembly equipment
Demilitarized components can be
reused or recycled

[jmhyer]

Well, from reading the whole thread, it seems fairly certain to me that this was an ammo issue...too hot. I'm with those who say not to use this ammo provider again. I think I would discard that magazine and have a good gunsmith go over the weapon...you might even ask S&W to do it. If the gun is undamaged, I would feel ok about continuing to use it. To my knowledge, the Bodyguard has at least a decent reputation for quality construction.

[skizzums]

I agree. At first when the op stated it was a NEW gun, I thought it was a new gun. But if he has already tested various ammos without issue, then I too suspect ammo is the culprit. I would still have a smith give it a once over before firing again. Nothing is broken, so doubtful summit or smith is going to give your case much attention.

[Aguila Blanca]

A DIVISION OF DOWN RANGE INC.

SUMMIT AMMUNITION:
Manufacturing & Demil Services of small caliber munitions

for Military, DoD, Law Enforcement & Civilian Applications.
Interesting, demil services, does that mean they use break down components?
Yes, "as noted "demil" is short for "demilitarized." When the military has overstocks, and possibly when their ammo is too old, they dispose of it but they are not allowed to just sell it. They disassemble it, then sell the components to companies such as Summit who put the components back together.

Semantics is everything, I guess. As far as I'm concerned, ammunition built out of demilitarized components isn't new, factory ammo. It's commercial reloads, at best ... a.k.a. "remanufactured."

[skizzums]

Not all of their ammo though. I have bought many summit brands that use Barnes bullets and their own summit headstamp

[jolly roger]

Second time I've heard of such a problem from a Bodyguard 380 interestingly enough. Still think bad ammo. Other one was shooting re manufactured also and their is little room for error when loading 380 due to the small case. Good news is the other one just popped the mag out also and the guy says it still runs fine after the "anomaly"

[mmb713]

Unlocking too early before pressure has a chance to lower? If the cases are bulged either the case is unsupported by the chamber or the case is exiting the chamber before pressure drops. You can't get a bulged case any other way, unless the chamber is bulged. It could be a gun issue or ammo loaded too hot or a combination of the two. What did your cases look like from other brands of ammo you have tried?

[James K]

While Summit states that they "manufacture" ammunition,* other sources say that it is actually reloaded or "re-manufactured" ammo, using mostly once fired brass. (I don't know where they would get enough "once fired" .380 brass; that is just one question I would have.)

Some reports and reviews have been positove, but at least one other user had similar problems.

*True since they presumably have a manufacturers' FFL, and someone can "manufacture" ammunition from anything, including new components, range sweepings, old beer cans, etc.

Jim

[skizzums]

I am not saying that they do not re-man SOME of their ammo's, but I have bought summit about a half dozen times, mostly rilfe and some pistol. it was ALL new manufacture.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/nwalker73/Mobile%20Uploads/03C7104A-9685-408C-8FE3-5FD273E19977_zpsb3u6i6fs.jpg (http://s998.photobucket.com/user/nwalker73/media/Mobile%20Uploads/03C7104A-9685-408C-8FE3-5FD273E19977_zpsb3u6i6fs.jpg.html)

[precision_shooter]

It may be new brass with their headstamp, but that doesn't mean the powder and bullets are not reclaimed military surplus...

[skizzums]

it does because the bullets are barnes bullets, at least that what it says on the box. and I tend to agree with the ballistic tip. don't know of any pulls that have polymer tipped bullets. as for powder, I guess it's possible..... but since 300BLK uses magnum pistol powders, I find it unlikely. pulling the bullet looks to be lil' gun

none of this speaks re-claimed to me.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/nwalker73/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0399_zpsrajcv0l6.jpg (http://s998.photobucket.com/user/nwalker73/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0399_zpsrajcv0l6.jpg.html)

[44 AMP]

I've already ran a few boxes of this brand of ammo before with no incident.

(in the gun we are talking about,?)
I consider this important information. Did the fired cases from the other boxes have the same bad bulges? Do cases from different ammo brands have the same bulge?

If so, it may NOT be an "overcharged round".

Essentially, ever since Glock proved they could get away with it, several recent pistol designs have chambers that are "generously" relieved in the feed ramp area. This does promote reliable feeding.

HOWEVER, the case is left with less support in this area than what was considered adequate in the past. Most of the time, it is enough. Once in a while, it is not.

Remember, to the gun maker, the case only has to survive the feeding and firing cycle, ONCE, to be considered adequate. A design that feeds, fires, and ejects reliably, even though it may stretch the cases close to their failure point, is still a "good" design to the gunmaker. There is nothing in the "rules" that says guns have to leave their empties in reloadable condition. The majority did, and still do, so we have come to expect this. Today we have several designs that, in my opinion, do not leave their fired cases in safe, reloadable condition, on purpose.

Remember too that gun makers all say not to use reloaded ammunition. In the case of guns with these "undersupported" chambers, might it not be that the designers counted on the use of new ammo?

New brass has the most "stretch" available, before failing. The ability of fired & reloaded brass to stretch (without failing) is less, and gets less each firing and reloading cycle the case survives.

With a fully supported chamber, brass can only stretch in length, and it is this that generally allows reloading (and usually multiple reloading) of the case. These unsupported chambers allow the case to bulge out to the side, and on top of that, the bulge is just in front of the solid case head, an area where the strength and thickness of the case are critical to its safe reuse.

I believe that by letting the case bulge the way they do (with standard safe pressure loads), these guns are essentially "using up" the reloadable life of the case on its first firing. I think the designers intended this, stopping just "short" of the failure point of the case, under normal circumstances.

But sometimes, an individual case will fail sooner than the majority. When this happens, you might get a "ka-boom" from a load (that is within pressure spec,) in the relieved chamber, that would not have happened in a "regular" chamber.

These guns walk close to the line, and sometimes, it gets crossed, without any failure on the part of the ammo maker. Not common, but sometimes, the stars line up, and the entrails are favorable for Murphy to combine things in the worst way.

In your case, an overcharged round is a possibility. A reloaded case (even by a factory) is a possibility. Its also a possibility your gun has TOO large an unsupported chamber, but since other rounds have fired without issue, this is less likely to be the main cause of this specific incident. It could well be a contributing factor, though.

I know many people have, and do reload the bulged brass from these kinds of chambers, without incident. I also know that these cases often fail before identical ones that have only been fired in "standard" chambers. Sometimes drastically before.

I will not reload cases with the kind of bulge shown in the OP's pic. I will not recommend any do so. Your call on that.

My point is that while the likely explanations involving something in the gun or ammo being wrong, are the most possible, one should not entirely discount that everything might have been in spec, and it was the combination of the tolerances of spec lining up just right, this time, to create the "perfect storm" that allowed case failure, this time.

[FlySubCompact]

44 AMP, (interesting handle, BTW. I'm a sparky....why 44?)

You offer a bunch of good points.

As to previously fired cartridges of this same brand....I have fired many rounds, but had no intention of ever reloading any .380's so I've never scrutinized any fired casings up until this little Kaboom. I wish now that I could have been in an environment where collection of all the spent casings from this session could have happened. Especially that Kaboomed one. Judging by the schrapnel damage exhibited on the top cartridge in the top of the mag and the blood dripping off my nose I'd bet it was a doozy. I will do a lot more examinations on spent .380s from now on.

When I first bought a .40 cal Glock I had intentions of reloading for that caliber until I saw how much a Glock warps them. I do reload, but in 9mm only. I run a Lone Wolf 40-9 barrel in the Glock 27 and see very little case deformity in those spent casings. Some I've tracked and reloaded at least seven times.

Since starting this thread I've taken the gun, leftover Summit ammo and the spent casings back to the LGS I purchased the gun and ammo from. He's supposed to sick his in-house gunsmith on it to check the situation out. Said he'd let me know if the gun was OK or if it needs to go back to Smith and Wesson. He also traded out the rest of Summit ammo for another brand for me. If I find out anything I'll update this thread.

[peggysue]

I am sure if you send it back to S&W they will fix it for free.

[44 AMP]

Since you asked, FlySub, this is what I took for a screen name, its not about electricity. :D Auto Mag Pistol

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo254/357amp/Gnwrld.jpg (http://s381.photobucket.com/user/357amp/media/Gnwrld.jpg.html)

I run a Lone Wolf 40-9 barrel in the Glock 27 and ...
Ok, and WHY are you running an aftermarket barrel?

Why ARE there such a profusion of aftermarket barrels for the GLock? The only explanation is that there is something about Glock barrels that enough people don't like to make the aftermarket barrels a profitable item. If they weren't, they wouldn't be around for people to buy.

I don't have a dog in this fight, directly. I don't have a Glock, or any similar style pistols. I have examined and shot several of them though. Whether it is because of bulging brass, or the issues with lead bullets in polygonal bores, the fact is that a LOT of people who own these guns have replaced the factory barrels with something else. (I'm not singling out Glock specifically, just using their name, my comments apply to all the guns using the same kind of design. (barrel leaving "too much" case unsupported for my comfort :rolleyes:)

Ever blow up balloons? You try to get them as big as you can, stopping just before they pop, right? But blow in just a little more air, and ..BOOM! Ever see one go boom just before or when it got to the full size of the others? It happens. Bad balloon.

These guns work about the same way. When all is well, all is well, when not, ...boom.

[Sequins]

44 AMP: I always love your ammunition related postings. I learn a lot.

[passtime]

For what it is worth the bulge in those cases looks like Glock Smile.

[FlySubCompact]

44 Auto Mag Pistol :cool:

Ok, and WHY are you running an aftermarket barrel?

I run an aftermarket barrel in my Glock 27 and 23 simply because of caliber conversion from .40 to 9mm. In doing so, I've discovered that I like 9mm more than .40. I also have a .357 Sig barrel for the 27. Expensive ammo, but I actually like it, too.

Anyway, an update...

Got the little Bodyguard back from the LGS. He had his in-house gunsmith check it over. He said it was OK. Still a little scared of the pistol :) I loaded both mags with a variety of ammo. Some cheap steel case stuff and more expensive defensive rounds in the mix. (Note: All the Summit brand has been removed and traded back to the LGS) I put on a thick leather work glove on my weak hand and fired it using a tree as a shield against another potential Kaboom. All fired normally. All spent cases collected. Not one bulged case in the bunch. Must have been a bad lot of ammo that caused the malfunction.

[dwhite]

A little off topic.

You need to buy the gun store owner a bottle
of good bourbon at Christmas. Sounds like he
gives FAR better service than most guns stores.

Traded out a gun. Took back your ammo. This is a
great guy.

All the Best,
D. White

[FlySubCompact]

Dwhite,

He does run a good shop. That is why I trade there. His place is on my way to work. Since he opened a couple of years ago I can't recall ever seeing his parking lot totally empty during business hours. I think the lowest customer head count when I've walked in was three or four. Don't know if he's a drinking man, but he gets my return business.

[rt11002003]

I've had two incidents in the past couple of months. The first was with a .22 Hammerli Xesse Sport. The squib load was so light I barely noticed it, in fact I didn't know anything happened, the shot was just different. Checked it. The barrel was clear and everything else was OK; I thought.:o When I was cleaning it, I discovered the frame was cracked on the bottom. Contacted Walther, they sent a FedEx ticket for me to send them the gun. They discovered the barrel was also cracked, but decided it was an ammo issue. Contacted ARMSCOR, they sent a FedEx ticket. They took one look and said they were responsible. They bought the gun from me, told me their .22 ammo was "plinking" ammo and not to use it in a gun like the Hammerli.:)

Then, I was shooting my SIG 1911 .45 Target. Really a nice, accurate gun. One shot failed to recycle the action. When I checked, the round was stuck in the barrel, just past the chamber. It was really jammed in tight. My wood dowel shattered, so I used a long metal punch, not quite long enough.:( It nicked the end of barrel and left several dimples in the round. Did I mention it was jammed in tight? The ammo was Freedom, re-manufactured. Contacted them. They refused to talk with me unless I had the gun checked by a gunsmith; and, they wouldn't discuss reimbursing me for a gunsmith's report. Freedom did agree to take the ammo back. I replaced the barrel. It was easier than dealing with them.:( And, probably didn't cost much more than a gunsmith's report.

My big surprise, beside the difference in manufacturers, was that my squib loads were so soft feeling, not loud (I wear ear plugs and ear muffs when shooting; otherwise wear hearing aids), no difference in recoil that I could sense, m/b I'm just numb.:o

[Jumping Frog]

I had a pistol malfunction today. New gun. It's a Smith and Wesson MP Bodyguard 380. Ammo was factory from Summit Ammo.
There is a thread over at Ohioans For Concealed Carry that has the exact same scenario: S&W Bodyguard .380 and Summit Ammo. This gun blew up TWO guns. (Seriously, KABOOM'd the first gun so continued with the same ammo in the second gun and KABOOMed it as well.

Thread here: http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83221

Do you have a scale that's accurate within 0.1grains? You might try weighing the remainder of the ammo to see if any of them vary from the average weight by a significant amount (say, 3.5 - 5.0 grains). Use an inertial bullet-puller to pull one cartridge of average weight apart, and weigh the powder charge. Do the same with one that varies far from the average weight. Compare the powder charges. When you contact the ammo factory, your findings may be diagnostic of the overall problem.

You MAY find that there's too much variance among the weights of the individual rounds for a meaningful comparison to be made, but it would take you less than an hour to weigh them with a digital scale. In any case, I'd like to know what you find out, when you talk to Summit.
Weighing may find a variance, but the other way a round can quickly become overpressured is if there is insufficient case neck tension, and slamming the cartridge up the feed ramp pushes the bullet back into the case far enough. A .380 case is pretty tiny, and it doesn't take much for pressure to go rapidly into the red zone when the case volume is so small.

The people who are constantly unloading and reloading their everyday carry guns are at great risk of this scenario (unless they use a cannelured case, like Hornady's Critical Duty). Here is a picture one guy posted of his rounds after being warned about repeated chambering of the same carry ammo. Personally, I think repeated chambering of ammo pushing the bullet into the case accounts for a lot of mysterious range KABOOM's, but in the above case, poor neck tension could certainly be a suspect.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/P1000122-W640_zps5ad486b7.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Jumping_Frog/P1000128-W640_zpsf31aa9c1.jpg

[Phaskins]

I just joined to add - same gun - same ammo - more disastrous result.

Photos.

http://imgur.com/a/nOQCf

Short version. 2 new guns. Ran several mags of Federal thru, then loaded up both with Summit. Plan was to shoot a box thru each.

1st mag seemed ok - Maybe a FTE - can not remember. 2nd mag - mine FTE - I had to set it down on the bench as it did not clear easily. I noticed the takedown pin was popped out a little. Took gloves off for grip, could not get back in. Took safety glasses off then noticed the small crack.

About that time the other one kabooms. It split the case. It was the 2nd round of Summiit thru it.

No reply from S&W yet. Summit want's Ammo back and offered $$ towards repair (if S&W hesitates).

Several possibilities - and will keep everyone updated.

Have not been to the LGS yet - but will in a day or 2.

Again - new here - have read stuff before - but never joined 'till now.

[FlySubCompact]

Jumping Frog,

The people who are constantly unloading and reloading their everyday carry guns are at great risk of this scenario

That was not an issue with my mini Kaboom. Unless the fresh ammo that popped somehow set back during it's first chambering as I was shooting the gun. Straight from the box to the magazine to the gun.

Phaskins,

Glad you came to this thread. Read that link. Sounds familiar. :) :(

Just got off the phone with the guy at Summit. Sounds like a good guy who is trying to rectify the issue and determine cause. He is going to try and get the ammo I experienced the kaboom with from the LGS where I traded it back. He knows the LGS owner. I told him that I left one spent/bulged case in with the unspent cartridges.

He said he's been making ammo since '99 and the only issue he's had are these incidences with (I'm assuming) our three Bodyguards. BTW, I could not see the pics clearly at that link. Are your Bodyguards the older laser versions or the newer non-laser M&P ones like mine?

Glad you and your lady were not seriously hurt. I also got a little schrapnel nick on the nose that caused a bleed. Would be interested to know what Smith might have to say if they get back with you.

Edit:
Holy crap...I went to your pic link instead of the "Ohio" link posted earlier. Your incident was much worse.

[Phaskins]

Try this
http://i.imgur.com/X3q3re8.jpg

I've had email with Summit - I was unable to get any cases. I did look at a few of the first 2 or 3 from the gun, but after the "incident" I never even thought about it.

If you can't see them - someone HELP :???

http://i.imgur.com/8WPRC9L.jpg

Drop me a email and I'll shoot direct





Duplicate attempt


http://i.imgur.com/X3q3re8.jpg

[Phaskins]

More photos - maybe

http://i.imgur.com/CbqG56w.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/AgjBUx6.jpg

[Peter M. Eick]

Bummer on that one.

Contact both manufacturers. Send letters and pictures. Certified would be best and request repair and replacement.

I am liking my sig 238 HD even better seeing these shots!

[Phaskins]

Summit has informed me they believe some of that lot may have over pressure issues. They have already offered to reimburse for repair and shipping.

I doubt there is much Smith can do - but you never know :)

I'm still waiting to hear from S&W, they probably still under 3' of snow.

[44 AMP]

The usual practice when a frame or receiver is damaged beyond economical repair is replacement. The maker can replace a frame and give the new frame the same serial number as the destroyed one, which means, legally, it is the "same" firearm. Or they can simply replace your gun with a new one, (legally, a different gun).

Looks like the ammo company is willing to accept that their error(s) could be the cause, and will cover the damages. This is a good thing, and the company is to be commended for their willingness to act in good faith.

As to the gun with the shattered frame (cracked seems to mild a word), wow!

I wonder if, under identical circumstances, would a steel framed gun have failed to the same degree? (actual curiosity, not meant as a bash against polymer).

The only "ka-boom" type incident I have ever personally witnessed happen was with a friend's Pit Bull (1911 variant), and he was shooting WW white box ammo. Cannot say was actual "ka-boom" like the one(s) here, never found the offending case. Unusual report (actually sounding like "ka-boom" and not a normal shot), and, and "something" blew off the magazine floorplate, dumping remaining rounds, spring & follower to the ground. No other damage to the gun was found.

I cannot equate this incident directly to the ones with the .380s in this thread, no way to know if the pressures were even remotely similar, but I think it likely that the "bad" .380 round(s) were higher pressure. So it leads me to wonder, if a steel framed gun would have faired differently in the same exact situation? OR, was it the gun design, more than the materials that allow it to fail in just that fashion?

[AFK]

Summit Ammunition Recall 1/27/2015



Summit Ammunition is recalling the following lots of 380 Ammunition:
Lot #s: 1785, 1787, 1791, 1803, 1809, 1817, 1849, 1855, 1879, 1900.

It is possible that some cartridges from these lots may exhibit excessive chamber pressure. Use of this product may result in firearm damage, or personal injury.

Discontinue use immediately, and contact Summit Ammunition for information on obtaining replacement ammunition at no cost to you.

This notice applies only to the lots numbers listed above.






This quote taken directly from their website, what lot # do you have?

[FlySubCompact]

I don't know what exact lot I had (but it obviously was one of those listed) :D

LGS guy traded it out with me for a different brand and the guy from Summit was supposed to go to the LGS and get what I turned in. The guy at Summit must have posted the recall. Seems like a good guy just trying to make sure this won't happen again.

Also, another update with my situation....

Seeing how it appears the Kaboom was ammo related, I decided to call S&W and relate the story. Even though the LGS's gunsmith went over the gun before returning it to me and it seems to function fine now, they asked for me to send my gun in to check it out. It's a free ride there and back so I agreed. Can't hurt I figure.

[Phaskins]

Update

Both guns are on the way to S&W.

Ammo on the way to Summit. Summit sates overpressure - no explanation as of yet.

Now just waiting for analysis.

Afterthought, wish I would have looked carefully at both guns with a magnifier. We both found tiny pieces of material in out face. Non-magnetic but not even able to tell if plastic, brass or steel. Pin head size tiny or smaller.

Needed CSI :)

[FlySubCompact]

Just an update. Smith found the mag catch was damaged on my Bodyguard and replaced it. It still worked, but the kaboom did take a tad off the catch tip. Got it back yesterday via FedEx. Ran about 50 rounds of various plinker and self defense rounds through it with no problems. (no Summits)

If it functions fine after another 200 trial rounds I think I'm going to keep it. It is a nice shooting little gun for a .380.

[Phaskins]

Finally - have all mine resolved. S&W took forever to reply (via snail mail) that they were un-repairable. They offered a replacement price higher than the local shop. A couple days later I get an email and tracking ID that they had received them. S&W seemingly has some issues :)

A few major snow storms probably contributed to the time required.

Summit paid for replacements. Had them to the range once, 100 or so thru each and zero issues. No fte, ftf, stovepipes, etc. Other 380 have not been so "kind". Wife has some issues with the long trigger pull, but some snap cap time should work that out.

Local GS had had these on a sale in Jan. Sold over a pallet load at 259. Had several that did the same with Summit.

Love to know how many and if any other than Bodyguards did the same.

[FlySubCompact]

Glad yours was resolved, Phaskins. Judging by your pics, I got out easy with the kaboom.

[Dreaming100Straight]

It is all once fired police brass reloads per comments to this youtube video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJO9lHzf3M0

[orionengnr]

Bit of a punctuation problem? :rolleyes:

[L-2]

I'm reading this thread a bit late since it was first generated.
I'd not heard of this ammo brand previously and went to its website.
There's now a recall of .380 ammo
http://www.summitammunition.com/ammoinfo.htm

with specific lot numbers:
"Summit Ammunition is recalling the following lots of 380 Ammunition:
Lot #s: 1785, 1787, 1791, 1803, 1809, 1817, 1849, 1855, 1879, 1895, 1900.

It is possible that some cartridges from these lots may exhibit excessive chamber pressure. Use of this product may result in firearm damage, or personal injury.

Discontinue use immediately, and contact Summit Ammunition for information on obtaining replacement ammunition at no cost to you."

[745SW]

This ammo has been a Skicky in this handgun semi-auto area since Feb of this year. I imagin the 380ACP can be overloaded compared to the 9mm. The latter is over built and can take a broad range of energy. Still an overload is not a good thing. :o

[sliclee]

You say you find nothing wrong, I found several places found their ammo in plastic baggies of 100, 200, plastic small boxes and almost all had mixed head stamps.
Arnt the mixed heads enough evidence of not new ammo?
How about the use of plastic guns.
Glock, the gun, has almost never been shot as much as it is happening now.
The police almost never shoot their guns as much as civilians do.
Glocks have never been used as much until now. Im not knocking the firm in any way, just stating facts. Most cops carry their guns for 10 years and never fire more than 20 or 30 rounds. Here we are firing more rounds in one day than most glocks in a year or three.

[9x18_Walther]

Glock, the gun, has almost never been shot as much as it is happening now.

SWAT units, the manufactures, and military forces have fired Glocks extensively without major issues.

If it goes ka-boom, it's either an ammo issue or a QC issue with the pistol. Made properly (which they are 99.999% of the time), Glocks can take a ridiculous amount of abuse.

[rpseraph]

I had a kaboom of my own when I was new to shooting. Thankfully it was with a .22LR and not anything scarier. Remington 597, Remington ammo (I know now, I didn't then). Inside the first 50 rounds of the 1st Remington rifle, a round exploded in the chamber. Ears rang, extracter blew out. I sent the ammo and rifle to Remington, they mailed me a new rifle and a nwe box of Remington ammo. Went out, 4th round through, exploded. Same thing. Again, Remington, new rifle... and this time they sent me a gift card for different ammo! I couldn't get them to admit that their ammo was crap, but just Google "Remington 22 ammo" and you'll read 100's of stories of terrible Remington ammo.

Maybe dumb, but I do continue to use the 597, but I will never again buy Remington ammunition. I have heard their other ammo is OK, and that the 22LR is their weakpoint, but I won't risk it!

[Aguila Blanca]

This ammo has been a Skicky in this handgun semi-auto area since Feb of this year. I imagin the 380ACP can be overloaded compared to the 9mm. The latter is over built and can take a broad range of energy.
That's an interesting concept. Since I reload for both 9mm and .380 Auto, I'm concerned. Could you explain how 9mm is "overbuilt" compared to .380 Auto?