What are the most reliable rifles in the cold (like really cold)

[TxFlyFish]

Just doing a bit of reading on the rifle choices of sovereignty patrols such as the Canadian Rangers and the Greenland's Sirius Patrol. They are using primarily bolt action Enfields. They just seem to be a bit outdated to modern bolt or semi autos. Is this choice an issue of tradition, budget, or really there isn't a modern rifle (whether bolt or semi) that can function reliably in the harshest of cold climates?

[T. O'Heir]

The Rangers use Lee-Enfields because that's what they're issued. The Lee-Enfield is also extremely reliable. Budgets are everything in the CF. The CF is currently looking for a replacement as parts etc. for No. 4 Rifles are getting scarce since a previous socialist, rat, offspring of unmarried parents, government opted to destroy 'em all. Very likely is not a high priority thing though.
Mind you, the C1A1 was 100% reliable too. If it was used correctly. That'd be no lube whatsoever in extreme cold. The SOB was far to heavy for a guy to lug around hunting though.
Greenland's Sirius Patrol is way different from our Rangers. The Rangers are natives. The Sirius guys are Regular Danish Navy SF types. They use a Pattern 17 .30-06, not a Lee-Enfield. Still a reliability thing, but also to deter polar bears.

[wogpotter]

There's a reverse correlation between sophistication & performance in adverse conditions.
The old Lee Enfield is, by modern standards, a clunker. But it excels in harsh conditions partly because its so darn simple. Take the trigger for example, its minimalist, a "V" spring a "V" shaped sear, a trigger & the cocking piece, that's it. However when it comes to mud, debris snow & so on its the perfect mechanism simply because it is massive, simple & designed as such. You could seriously do much worse than a good No4 or No5 Enfield for a bad weather rifle. I take mine to the range & the woods when my more sophisticated friends are leaving the modern rifles at home.

[4V50 Gary]

Enfields.
Mosin Nagants (preferably Finnish).

[jimbob86]

There's a reverse correlation between sophistication & performance in adverse conditions.


+1.

Simple is good when conditions are difficult.

Cock on Closing Mausers are mighty simple..... and robust.

[Gunplummer]

What people call "Bubba'd guns" are the best. Many a (Real) hunter has kept a chopped military gun around to use even when they could afford a better looking gun. I remember when there was great paranoia about frozen firing pins. I was hunting in a heavy snowstorm one day and my new Marlin lever action 45/70 froze shut by the end of the day. I had to lay it right under the heater in the truck to try and thaw it out to open it before I went home. It took quite a while using a heater back then. I have never had that happen with a surplus gun.

[Art Eatman]

If you know you are going to hunt in super-cold conditions, make sure the bolt and the trigger group are right at near-dry. No grease and almost no oil beyond a thin film. Powdered graphite, maybe...

[FrankenMauser]

The simpler, the better.


Stainless steel, although nice to have, should be avoided. The expansion/shrinkage rates for stainless steel are higher than carbon and chromoly steels. As such, tolerances will change more, and not for the better.

[flashhole]

I understand your comment but it begs the question why stainless/synthetic are the rave in Alaska where conditions are harsh.

[mapsjanhere]

Different priorities. If you're a hunter who can choose his time to hunt you choose the equipment for low maintenance. You go stainless, because you're worried that the rifle might be rusted shut from a couple of months in the wrong place. If you're a professional who has to be out every day you go for reliability, and you're being paid for the time to do daily maintenance to prevent failure due to rust.

[MarkCO]

I just got back from elk hunting, highs were in the teens and lows were around zero while we were hunting. I have hunted as cold as -38 and several times in the range of -20 to 10. When the range at 8,000 feet has a prediction of temps below zero without a snowstorm, I often try to get to the range for some cold weather testing. I run action tests, oil test and velocity tests. Some of the data is very interesting.

A "dry" bolt action most certainly can bind especially if it gets any moisture...in and out of a truck or abode with the resultant condensation. I have tested both FrogLube and FireClean, both failed miserably in the cold. Full synthetic ATF applied sparingly to the bolt lugs and contact points is what I typically use. I am trying out a new actual gun oil now that, so far, has proven to excel in every area.

I run piston and DI ARs and the DI guns do run better in extreme cold...at least the ones I tested. I do run a NiB coated BCG in my ARs that are to be used in extreme conditions and they have done well. I ran a 100 round test with cool periods last year at -12 to -8 on a normal 16" DI gun with ATF on the trigger and a dry NiB BCG...ran like a champ. That gun now has close to 3K on it, no maintenance at all since that first test.

[Peter M. Eick]

One comment. Having worked in Northern Russia/Siberia, I would comment there is a world of difference in what is considered cold. -40C is where I would call the break point where things get odd. My experience is that up to about -40C things behave as you would expect. Steel is sold and strong and does not shatter or break easily. When you get the really cold days like -65C. Steel gets very brittle at these temps and you have to avoid impacts for some steels will shatter like glass.

We broke (shattered) several gears and chains on our dozers when we had a stretch of really cold days where we bottomed out around -68C which was the generally accepted actual temp. The camps weather station said -72C but we agreed that was probably over stating things a bit. I know it got so cold that my rubber sorel boots, the rubber actually shattered on flecked off it. It did not matter that much since the rubber was needed for the wet and nothing stayed wet that was not in contact with direct flame at those temps.

My point is be careful of sharp impact loads on some steel alloys as you get colder. Things behaved a lot differently than I would have expected prior to working there. A bit of caution is warranted.

[wogpotter]

A couple of good points there. I never take the rifle indoors, even more not into a tent in sub freezing weather. Its better off consistently cold & dry than swapping between in & out.

Also the extreme cold comments. I've done some sales to those working in the Arctic/Antarctic & when it gets really deep freezing cold materials behave very differently. In many cases well cured wood has actually out preformed metal for breakage!

[kraigwy]

Don't underestimate the M1 Garand in cold weather.

I use to run sniper schools using the M1C/Ds. In the schools I had students from 3 AK Native BNs.

Alaska natives don't make a lot of cash money and we were lax with ammo accountability so guard ammo (and sometimes guns) were often used by these guys in their substance hunting.

I've been with these guys on hunting trips in some pretty extreme conditions, 40-60 below and colder, with harsh winds and blowing snow. I've never seen the Garand fail.

Of course I did include "using dry rifles" in cold weather in my classes.

[MarkCO]

The ductile-to-brittle transition temperature (DBTT) of metals is pretty well understood by materials engineers. Mild Carbon steel is about -20F and AR500 is around -50F. There are some alloys of the various parent metals that perform better in cold environments.

If you want to research it some, look up some of the articles regarding Allied ships sinking in the winter on return voyages during WWII. During the war, they thought German spies figured out routes home and relayed that to subs who then sank them. In the 50s, it was accidentally discovered that unloaded ships riding high in the water had significant bending stressed midship on the top cords of the structure. They would fracture and split the ships in two. I have worked on a few cases of 100 pound propane cylinders being impacted at very low temperatures and fracturing like glass.

All that said, the metals used for firearms barrels have a DBTT below the lowest temperatures measured on earth.

[Hammerhead]

Don't underestimate the M1 Garand in cold weather.
They didn't fare well in Korea in the icy battle of the Chosin reservoir. US troops had to resort to using Chinese bolt actions because the M1s were failing in sub-zero weather.
That is one of the reasons we developed the M-14. A shorter action and a gas port located closer to the chamber plus a gas adjustment for cold weather.

[MarkCO]

Stainless steel, although nice to have, should be avoided. The expansion/shrinkage rates for stainless steel are higher than carbon and chromoly steels. As such, tolerances will change more, and not for the better.

Big error there. Sure, if you look up common consumer grades of stainless (300 series) it has a larger co-efficient of thermal expansion than Carbon steels. But we don't use 300 grade stainless for barrels. 90% of stainless barrels are made from Carpenter or Crucible 416R stainless steel. The numbers are close if not better for the actual grades of stainless used, than Chrome Moly.

[TxFlyFish]

What about ak action I'm sure the Russians have some tests in the cold. I suppose one could whack the bolt loose, I don't see that many more exposed parts compared to bolt action

[FrankenMauser]

Big error there. Sure, if you look up common consumer grades of stainless (300 series) it has a larger co-efficient of thermal expansion than Carbon steels. But we don't use 300 grade stainless for barrels. 90% of stainless barrels are made from Carpenter or Crucible 416R stainless steel. The numbers are close if not better for the actual grades of stainless used, than Chrome Moly.
Barrels don't matter much, in my opinion.
It's the action that is going to stop you in your tracks if the tolerances tighten up and improper choice of lubrication (or lack of cleaning) exacerbates the problem.

There are actions out there (Marlin 800/900/XT series comes to mind) that use nasty, soft stainless that shrinks and expands like crazy. If they were anything even remotely close to 416R or even a 4040-series alloy, I would eat my boots.

[HiBC]

If a person is so inclined,search for "Thermal co-efficient of expansion" of whatever material you want.It likely can be found.I seriously doubt dimensional changes are the issue.If the gun locks up,it ice or frozen lube.
I am not a metallurgist or Mechanical Engineer.I do not pretend to know the answer.
I'm pretty sure the stainlesses are more likely loose strength under extreme cold than the carbon alloy steels.
I can offer a little evidence.If you take this link to the Kreiger barrel page,you will be on the "calibers" table.Look down the page to a black header that offers Obermeyer 5R rifling.Right under that is a note explaining why they offer lighter contours in CM steel than 416 stainless,and it has to do with cold weather.
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Calibers__Prices-c1246-wp3390.htm

Schuemann is a highly regarded handgun barrelmaker.He uses 416R steel.He is willing to discussconcerns about 416
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel%20Steel.pdf

If you want to learn the horrors of what some solvents do to 416,Mr Scuemann has some to say about that,too.

Especially chlorinated hydrocarbons like carb cleaner.Or,a really good one,the tapping fluids based on chlorinated hydrocarbons.Old formula Rapid Tap,for example

http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel_Cleaning.pdf

This link is to an Alaskan forum,discussing stainless vs CCM steel in cold
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/24214-Strength-of-stainless-steel-Guns-vs-carbon-steel-guns

It starts out slow,same old opinions,till you get to case study about Ruger and the 454 Casull,how 410 and 416 did not make the cut,Carpenter steel consulted,etc. Ruger went for the good stuff.

I came away with this:"Stainless" covers too many steels.There are a lot beyond 304,410,416,etc.It does not work to characterize them all together.

I have some experience with 17-4 PH.Freedom Arms uses it.MOA Maximum uses it.I have a few treasured chunks.Its a bit tough,machining,but it machines crisp,clean...nice!!

And,bake it a couple hours at 900 f then air cool it,no warp,no scale,and someplace in the 40's Rockwell "C".Very high tensile.

Want to play with thermal coefficient of expansion?Ok,just realize the whole gun is the same temp,so the bolt,bbl,receiver,etc will all change together,although,perhaps at a slightly different rate.Not much.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html

[Mobuck]

I've seen every type of action fail to operate under low temp conditions. Sometimes due to poor maintenance and other times simply due to design.

[wogpotter]

Extreme low temps & inclement weather increase all failure rates. Some increase more than others!:D

[James K]

The failure of the M1 rifle in Korea was usually the result of either lubrication freezing or of condensation freezing. Kept dry, the M1 will work OK in very cold weather.

There is no operator-controlled gas adjustment on the M14.

Jim

[jmr40]

Many of the older military issue rifles were designed for durability in harsh conditions. Most modern guns are designed to be built the cheapest and primarily for accuracy. Of the modern guns guns I'd take the Ruger Hawkeye over all others. They are the only company still using an open trigger design. It is pretty bullet proof. The pre-FN made Winchester 70's used the same design.

[Gunplummer]

There is no adjustment, but there is a valve to shut the gas off.

[baddarryl]

As a southern boy, I find this entire thread mind blowing! I am having to convince my son it is not too cold to still hunt at 22 and 45. That 22 has him not feeling it!

[MarkCO]

The HIGH during our elk hunt this past weekend was 18F. The low was -11F. It was 8F when I shot my elk...gutted it in 10 minutes.

[Jimro]

Mausers, Mosins, and Lee Enfields have proven themselves over and over against each other.

As much as I dislike SLA Marshal's "research" he did note that the Garand did better in Korean winters than other weapons available to the Infantry. As far as the Battle of Chosin goes, I would say that being encircled by superior numbers of Chinese forces would encourage you to use all available arms and ammo because your supply lines have been cut. Logistics makes a better explanation why captured arms and ammo were used in light of the known performance of the Garand in Korean winters.

Of the rifles listed above, only the Mauser is still being manufactured, so if you want a new rifle that would be the one to get. If you don't mind buying used, any of them will work quite well.

Jimro

[Geezerbiker]

The Swiss seem to have had good cold weather results from the Schmidt-Reuben and K31 rifles. I think a lot of cold weather success is in prep work for cold and not as much as the rifle itself...

Tony

[doofus47]

I was watching an episode of "survival in alaska" or one of those generically-named alaska reality shows. One guy and his eskimo wife were chasing a caribou herd with a Mosin; it looked to be a long-barreled 91/30.

When I rifle hunt in cold weather, I leave my rifle in my truck at night to keep the temperature variance down. (edit: not part of the original question, but I seemed to be on a typo-free roll, so I added that bit)

[Model12Win]

The Nagant rifles are the most reliable in the cold. The massive bolt lockup and generous tolerances make it so. Plus the heavy cocking piece and spring power.

Hitler learned just how reliable the Nagant is in the cold the hard way. The nazi's Mausers and sturmgewehrs froze up a lot. I think the Ruskies put diesal fuel in there gun grease to keep it from freezing up.

[Jimro]

The Swedes managed to use 96 and 98 Mausers just fine in the deep cold, the Norse used K98s as well after WWII. The Finns and Russians used Mosin Nagants just fine as well. I'm sure the Krag-Jorgensen did quite well in the Nowegian winters too.

The Sako and Tikka commercial rifles, along with some of the Husqvarna rifles should be more than up to the task of hunting in the deep cold, although I haven't tried it myself. Heck even the Rem 700 has been used as a sniper rifle in Alaska for a few decades now.

Jimro

[Husqvarna]

Even modern rifles are sometimes designed/tested to extreme colds

the benelli argos is tested to below 40degress minus celsius

And the AI AW 308 bolt action is aswell.

I've had firing pins frozen on my shotgun but never my bolt actions

I was not gentle with my argo and it was reliable to a T. thru snow, mud, rain, fast firing you name it. now that I write this I can't fathom I sold it:mad:

[reynolds357]

The keys to rifles working in extreme temperatures are the same; whether the extreme be cold or hot.
1. The cartridge needs a reasonable amount of taper.
2. Machine work needs to be precise.
3. Clearances need to be loose.

Despite Defying 1 and 3, the Weatherby Mark V has an excellent reputation in both extremes.:rolleyes:

[zach_]

Y'all make me feel guilty for not giving my new scope a go today. It is 36°. I lived up north 35 years ago. I don't miss the extreme cold at all.

[jimbob86]

I think the Ruskies put diesal fuel in there gun grease to keep it from freezing up.


Low grade diesel gels in the mid teens (Fahrenheit) pretty easily ..... At really low temps it gets downright sticky.....

If you wanted to increase lubricity at very low temps, adding something lighter than diesel oil (maybe kerosene, with a gel point around minus 50F) might be a better answer ......

[FrankenMauser]

As a southern boy, I find this entire thread mind blowing! I am having to convince my son it is not too cold to still hunt at 22 and 45. That 22 has him not feeling it!
Our high, the day of your post (the 30th), was 8 F on my back porch. The low was -5.8 F.
Yesterday, the high was 2.9 F and the low was -7.9 F.

The range recorded a low of -24 F and a high of -17 F.

I was going to go test a new rifle at the range, but my truck had a massive amount of ice on the inside of the windows (taillight housing must be leaking again :rolleyes:). Oh well, back inside where it's warm...

[DPris]

Coldest I've personally fired was about 12 degrees on one session, got down to 10 as I was packing up.
Had a three-day shoot a while back with a handful of guns that ran 15-17 degrees as the high all three days.

I have to shoot for a paycheck & can't wait for perfect weather, but at this stage of life if it's below 15 or so when I start, I don't start. :)

Carried M16s below zero, never had to fire one that cold.
Never frozen a gun solid, or a pin. Nowdays, hunting isn't worth REAL cold temps. :)

FM- Where in Idaho did you end up?
Denis

[barnbwt]

"I think the Ruskies put diesal fuel in there gun grease to keep it from freezing up."
If this was WWII or earlier, it may not have been diesel, so this may have worked better. Benzene was a common fuel prior to that, for example, before people took note of how ludicrously dangerous it was (way too volatile, way too carcinogenic; bad combo)

TCB

[FrankenMauser]

FM- Where in Idaho did you end up?
Denis
Pocatello.
There are several places that I shoot, ranging from the Gate City SSA range just outside of town (0-600+ yd), to Marsh Valley (7-225 yd), to the Bear Lake area (0-1000+ yd).

[HiBC]

Its been - 10 to -15 last few nights here,but I wouldn't worry about the guns if prepped .
That's not REALLY cold.
I used to make a Montana ice fishing trip every year.We just camped on the ice.One year the Catalytic heater /bulk tank said "No,too cold"Propane wasn't moving for some reason.

Had a charcoal fire in an oil drain pan for my dutch oven.Sausages,cabage,potatoes onions,carrots,etc.Dutch oven cracked.

But,we figured out having fun.

The main thing to remember,don't night fish with crawlers if you are eating pretzels when its cold.

[flashhole]

I like your advice at the end of your post. :) Sounds like the voice of experience has spoken.

[agtman]

* * * (like really cold).

M1 Garand ...

As in "frozen Chosin Reservoir."

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/M1G-1.jpg (http://s372.photobucket.com/user/agtman/media/M1G-1.jpg.html)

:cool:

[Tucker 1371]

As has been mentioned already by a few here, one critical component of extreme cold weather reliability is proper lubrication. Run of the mill CLP will not cut it. I have witnessed a M2 .50 cal machine gun lock up and become a bolt action in single digit temps on a range because the wrong lubrication was used.

[DPris]

FM,
Pocatello's in Idaho's Sun Belt, isn't it?
Go farther North to get into cold country. :)
Denis

[FrankenMauser]

FM,
Pocatello's in Idaho's Sun Belt, isn't it?
Go farther North to get into cold country.
Denis
:D
Nah, if I want cold, I can hop on over to Bear Lake. It's usually colder than most other 'cold' areas in Idaho.

Last week, they were in the -30s for a while, and they will certainly spend a notable portion of the winter with lows in the -40s and "highs" in the -20s.
I have family there. ...I don't visit during the winter. ;)

[DPris]

Think I'll stay down here.
Got to shoot Monday, supposed to be 47.
Nice & toasty. :)
Denis

[WV_gunner]

I know Rossi levers lock up in the 20s I belive it was. My dad had one and had to be sent back to get the clearances opened up. They blamed it on the cold.

[Husqvarna]

dutch oven

it is a real thing? I only knew it as farting under the cover:D

[GAMEOVER]

Id get a Ruger Scout and customize it, but im partial. :)

[agtman]

No problem with the functioning of this Mini-G in 20-degree temps, light snow, and a hard, biting wind.
Was probably more like '0' when factoring for the wind-chill.

The functioning of the operator's trigger finger was, however, a different issue. :eek:

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/agtman/Mini-G1.jpg (http://s372.photobucket.com/user/agtman/media/Mini-G1.jpg.html)

:cool:

[HiBC]

Yes,Husky,its a real thing.

A darn fine cooking device .

http://www.cowboyshowcase.com/dutch-ovens.html#.VKlUVsItDIU

[flashhole]

Thanks for posting the dutch oven link.

[6.5swedeforelk]

I like the 96 coc mauser as a cold weather (40 below &<).
Residual moisture is your enemy, not the cold.
The G96 spray works ok if you wipe all traces of it off after use.

In severe cold, I resort to walking with cocked but empty chamber and snapping action before chambering a round.
This prevents a weak pin strike due to hanging on pinhole frost.

[bumnote]

I think the Ruskies put diesal fuel in there gun grease to keep it from freezing up.

I forget what the name of the show was I was watching about the differences between Russian and German cold weather equipment/preps during Stalingrad was, but according to that show the Red Army mixed gasoline into their gun oil. They demo'd it during the show and the straight gun oil froze up while the mixture didn't regardless of whether it was a Mosin or a Mauser.

The Swiss developed a grease for their rifles that was specially designed for use in extreme cold of the Alps. Can't remember the name, but allegedly it's the best for bolt actions.

[wogpotter]

The Swiss developed a grease for their rifles that was specially designed for use in extreme cold of the Alps. Can't remember the name, but allegedly it's the best for bolt actions. Waffenfett grease, maybe?

[HiBC]

I have seen fly fisherman rub the ferrule of a fly rod on the nose before fitting the rod together..an ever present source of anti-seize.

And,lacking a local Sportsman's Warehouse,or walmart,I can envision an Inuit hunter doing the same with a rifle bolt.

Most of us who wear eyeglasses understand a very thin film of something oily,like chicken grease,on the lense.Wiping smears it a bit thinner,but the optical properties of the oil on the glass are persistent till some solvent,like detergent,is used.

In most cases,that sort of thin film is the desired lublication in cold weather.A film that thin of many oily substances would not be a problem.
Its the thick wad like bubble gum that is the problem.Obstruction,or a tar like drag on moving tings.

Castrol and other lube companies make synthetic greases rated for very cold temps,and the synthetic oils like obli 1 might be great...but then it needs to be wiped off to what seems dry,unless it was on your glasses.

[eastbank]

i degrease all the bolt parts and inside of the action along with the whole trigger group for realy cold weather hunting. for the time you will be useing the rifle hunting, there will not be metal parts wear for the short time you use it. eastbank.