The Army's New Pistol

[johnelmore]

Ive been seeing reports of the Army looking to get a new pistol. For the record, I never thought much of the Beretta. I once dropped a Beretta and it kept rattling. Obviously not the "to hell and back" reliability. My personal opinion, its a no brainer, H&K is the clear winner in my mind. We dont need a competition. Just need to know two letters and they are H and K.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/03/news/companies/army-gun-new-beretta/index.html?cid=ob_articlesidebarall&iid=obnetwork

[riflemen]

American made S&W M&P...

[Skans]

They should take a good hard look at the Grand Power K100's. If they have to have something American made, then they should commission Colt to make Delta Elites in 10mm again.

In my opinion, whatever the military chooses as a new firearm is extremely subjective and probably dependent on the tastes (or allegiances) of the guy who gets to choose.

[CWKahrFan]

I figure the FN 5.7 will get serious consideration... bash away detractors but it's got a lot of supporters.

"The Five-seven is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

[Independent George]

1. I'm not convinced they need a new pistol. A new rifle system? Sure. Probably with a new standard rifle round. But pistols are so far down on the list of priorities that it almost falls under the 'don't even bother' category.

2. I'm cynical enough about Pentagon procurement that I feel like this has more to do with sending money in the direction of a particular vendor than it does with performance.

3. I think this would be the third or fourth pistol trial since 2000 - it's almost as if they've decided to keep running new trials until they get the answer they wanted in the first place.

My personal opinion, its a no brainer, H&K is the clear winner in my mind. We dont need a competition. Just need to know two letters and they are H and K.

Oy. I usually try not to reply to trollbait, but... Oy.

[Don P]

American made S&W M&P...
And where do you think the Beretta is made? Made here in the USA and once the military contract for the balance of 100,000 M9 are completed they will be moving to TN BECAUSE of Maryland's gun laws and attitude

[riflemen]

The fn 5.7 is a fine pistol, nice shooter, I own one...

[kraigwy]

With current budget cuts, and more to come, the last thing the Army needs is a new pistol.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree - we can't afford needed equipment. Just another pipe dream for someone.

As far as it being this or that brand, for sure - when you are an engineer, combat expert and ergonomic whiz - then your obvious opinion might have some weight.

If we debate this, let's have reasoned opinions.

[jag2]

I haven't shot the 5.7 but did notice the ammo is very expensive.Yes, mass production would help but I just think it's an expensive round to make. Also, I don't think that it's hyper velocity would be that good for close quarters where you would assume it would be used. What is it, about four time as fast as the 1911? It has been a while since I held one but I remember it feeling a little large which has always been one of the complaints about the 92. The 92 took some criticism early on because many said the 9mm bullet was too light. The 5.7 shoots a 23 grain bullet if I remember correctly. For the politics, it certainly needs to be made in the US, preferably by a US company. That contract would surely help save Colt which may not be around much longer the way things are going.

[Bella]

The money the military is saving by grounding the A10 Warthog can go to purchasing new pistols. ;)

[44 AMP]

For the politics, it certainly needs to be made in the US, preferably by a US company.

Call it politics, or something else, it is a long established policy that US arms need to be made in the USA. The last thing one wants in a weapon system is an interrupted supply of arms, or of vital parts. And such things can happen in time of war, to things that have to come from outside the US.

The Army may very well be testing for a new pistol, despite budget cuts. As long as the budget "pocket" with the money for testing is full, there will be testing. It doesn't matter if the pocket with the money for buying a new pistol is empty....

[johnelmore]

I dont know anyone who owns a Berreta and I dont see any at the stores or the shows. I dont see any at the local competitions. No one here in this forum or others argues passionately about them. No police department uses them. I dont see anyone making money selling accessories for them. It never fit my hand and the ones I used seemed shabbily built. Seems bigger than it needs to be. A bit heavy. It took me but a few minutes to realize the Beretta would not be one in my collection.

So what am I missing? Why did they choose this in the first place?

[BarryLee]

So what am I missing? Why did they choose this in the first place?

I suspect someone can offer more specifics, but if I remember right it was performance and cost. Seems like Beretta was one of just a couple of guns that passed the test and then they came in with the lowest overall cost.

[Crankgrinder]

beretta won because of c.ost. HK or sig would be.great for them but both are expensive. Smith m&p will be very competitive on both cost and quality. I believe glock will win out on cost and reputation and i think it will be in. 40s&w.

[ATW525]

I dont know anyone who owns a Berreta and I dont see any at the stores or the shows. I dont see any at the local competitions. No one here in this forum or others argues passionately about them. No police department uses them. I dont see anyone making money selling accessories for them. It never fit my hand and the ones I used seemed shabbily built. Seems bigger than it needs to be. A bit heavy. It took me but a few minutes to realize the Beretta would not be one in my collection.

So what am I missing? Why did they choose this in the first place?

They were actually pretty prolific in law enforcement prior to the polymer framed revolution. There was a time when it seemed like every automatic packing cop I saw had either a 3rd generation S&W or a Beretta.

[Doyle]

So what am I missing? Why did they choose this in the first place?

It was chosen after series of test showed it could meet the government's requirements AND meet their price/prodution point. It beat out several other compeditors. That doesn't mean it was the best available at the time. It just means that it was the best of the ones submitted for test that could also meet the price and production point.

[Tom Servo]

I dont know anyone who owns a Berreta and I dont see any at the stores or the shows.
Now you do. I love the 92FS. It's one of the better-selling guns at my shop. Many folks like it for home defense.

I dont see any at the local competitions.
I'm watching an IDPA match as I type this. Two guys are running the course with 92's.

No police department uses them.
While Glock largely priced them out of the market, the M9 is an alternate gun for two local city departments.

If you don't like the Beretta, that's understandable. It doesn't work for some folks. But to say nobody likes it or uses it is an overly broad and inaccurate statement.

[phudd]

Beretta, SIG, and HK are almost equally bad choices.

We have the M9. It kinda works. While there are probably better choices the Beretta does not suck bad enough to warrant a change.

[lamarw]

I do not see the U.S. Military going to a 40S&W.

I will even be surprised to see a new handgun acquisition. They probably don't even have the budget to shred all the M9's.

[Crankgrinder]

Then they'll have to let their pocketbook do the talking and shred the law against selling them to the.public instead:D

[SSGN_Doc]

So what am I missing? Why did they choose this in the first place?

They passeed the testing. They met the price point and they were one of the first to agree to setting up production in the US.

I've used one for over 20 years of military service and owned one for a couple years before joining the military ( It was one of the first pistols I bought, because "the Military uses it", back when I was 21.)

23 years later I have a lot more pistol experience under my belt. Other pistols do fit me better, btu I still shoot the Beretta really well, largely because I did the majority of my learning to shoot with it. I've had no problems with my personal pistol (an Italian made 92 FS), or the service pistols that were issued to me on deployments.

It works.

If they adopt anther pistol with equal reliability, and accuracy, I just hope it is one that fits more people well.

[peggysue]

Like the berets it will be made in China.:D

[HKFan9]

I doubt the US Mil. would ever adopt the .40SW. A lot of police departments are ditching it to go back to 9mm and 9mm is a NATO caliber, which generally we stick to. I don't see them taking Glocks either because they generally dictate the firearm has a manual safety, so unless Glock retro-fits their guns with one (which can be done) i don't see it happening.

I think youl see see similar to the rifle tests, they will test the new guns, and decide its not worth upgrading.

[riflemen]

And where do you think the Beretta is made? Made here in the USA and once the military contract for the balance of 100,000 M9 are completed they will be moving to TN BECAUSE of Maryland's gun laws and attitude

I am aware of where beretta is produced, I actually know a lot about beretta, I have toured the original {still standing}factory in Trompia Valley, {I am in Italy often, I am going this weekend, not to the factory, but I have done it twice}. I have met one of the owners {one of the sons}, the company has been owned by his family for a half millenium!!! Thats impressive no matter which continent you are on...

Anyway, I just think sw should be making our gov guns... Why send any money out of the country, sure they employ us workers, but sw does too... I am just sick of seeing my swhc stock go down, I can't complain I bought late in 012 for under $3 now its around $10 I believe but it was as high as $17, I should have sold then, damn my american greed..

[Venom1956]

Just click bait. Everyone and their mother will make a pistol and guess what... They will just keep their M9s... :rolleyes:

Considering most people I've met don't even carry a side arm. If you wanna make an infantry more dangerous get them a better rifle if possible. (m4s seem just fine too.) I haven't heard of side arms winning any major battles.

[Captains1911]

A bit of a fanboy are we?

[TxFlyFish]

Not sure what they expect of the M&P .... it doesn't offer any significant improvement over the M9. IF we have to have a new pistol maybe go with something that is relevant for the next 20-30 years, open to suggestions

As for winning major battles in LOTR, Legolas used his dagger cqb quite effectively against the orcs...sure he could have used his bow but it wouldn't be the best tool

[CWKahrFan]

...M&P .... it doesn't offer any significant improvement over the M9...

Hmmm... 7 oz. lighter is significant.

The FN 5.7 is @ 6 oz lighter than the M&P!... plus the ammo is way lighter too... Too bad the FN 5.7 isn't currently produced here, but that could change since some FN military guns are already made in Columbia, South Carolina.

The "...something relevant for the next 20-30 years..." comment is the crux of the discussion. Lighter with more rounds is the significant appeal of the 5.7. The U.S. Secret Service has been using some for many years... This idea is not outlandish, underlined by the armor-piercing configuration possibilities inherent with the 5.7 round.

[NateKirk]

In my opinion, whatever the military chooses as a new firearm is extremely subjective and probably dependent on the tastes (or allegiances) of the guy who gets to choose.

Exactly. It's all political. The army doesn't choose the best equipment, they choose whatever meets the minimum requirements for the least amount of money, or they choose whatever company they are personal friends with or got treated the best by.

[kraigwy]

The money the military is saving by grounding the A10 Warthog can go to purchasing new pistols

The heck with that, as an combat infantry man, I'd much rather have the A10 backing me up then a damn pistol

A better idea that has been floating around is to give the A10 to the Army. The Army wants it, has a need for it, and AF wants to get rid of it because its not some supper high tech. fighter.

There was no better aircraft made to support infantry troops.

[Bella]

Are you trying to say that groups like ISIS would be more concerned about A10's then new pistols? Blasphemy! ;)

[Mystro]

I put little stock in anything by CNN but..... Either the FN, M&P or HK in 45acp would make sense. Of course the military has so many factors that influences what makes sense that I wouldnt want to guess.
Perhaps this is why "What the military or Police use" isnt a superlative endorsement for a firearm choice for a private citizen with much better options. ;)

[seeker_two]

I hope they go with a smaller pistol this time.....nothing larger than a Glock 19. Soldiers are burdened with too much already, and 9mm FMJ doesn't get better performance from a 5" barrel over a 3.5-4" barrel.

[Captains1911]

I hope they go with a smaller pistol this time.....nothing larger than a Glock 19. Soldiers are burdened with too much already, and 9mm FMJ doesn't get better performance from a 5" barrel over a 3.5-4" barrel.

Glocks are probably out because they lack a manual safety. Although I agree a G19 would make for a fine service pistol.

[ATW525]

Not sure what they expect of the M&P .... it doesn't offer any significant improvement over the M9.

It most likely offers a significant improvement from a logistics standpoint. Much less spares to stock and longer expected service life of the polymer frame compared to the aluminum frame of the M9. Replacing the M9 with a modern striker fired pistol might actually save money in the long term despite the initial up front costs of purchasing a new weapon system and retraining soldiers to use it.

[chrisintexas]

So if glock made pistols with manual safety it would be a shoo in?

[Ibmikey]

You guys are funny, throw out a headline and watch the fish bite. Obviously if S&W and the army plus all the other vendors thought something like this would happen within many years they would be in a frenzy of design and bid submissions. Also the comment about many PD's abandoning the .40 is total conjecture without a factual foundation included. The 40 S&W has and is soldiering on with a large number of LE agencies (I am not a fan of the 40) and I have not seen or heard that they are disillusioned to the point of wanting the expense of a pistol / caliber change. So when the Army listens to me and adopts the 1911 a1 pistol all problems will vanish in a poof of cordite smoke.:D:)

[ritepath]

We don't need a competition. Just need to know two letters and they are S and W.



See how this game is played.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ok - going nowhere useful anymore.

Closed.