CCW - DA/SA - Which One

[MtnMike1]

In the past I've rarely carried and when I did it was a G27. I recently purchase my first Sig (226 EE) and I decided to sell the G27 (sold) and get a new pistol for CCW as I plan to carry more often. I want to stay with 9mm and DA/SA so I'm using the same platform for the time being. I want a quality brand that will make it easier to recoup most of the value in case I don't like it for CCW. I really like the M11-A1 desert but think it may be a little big for me, 5' 10" and 180 lbs. While shopping for my first Sig I also considered HK P30L and CZ P-01. So here are a few questions to help me make a better decision.

1. HK P30 and P200 are about the same size. With the V3 trigger how do they compare for CCW?
2. I'm not familiar with Walther other than a little I've read here. Is there a specific model there I should consider?
3. Which quality pistols are similar in size (prefer little longer grip) to the G27 but are DA/SA?

Thanks Guys, I've learned a lot here in a short time.

[Mystro]

I have lots of Sigs. You may like the HK USP Compact 9mm. I have two one in 9mm and one in 45acp. They are light weight, bullet proof design, and extermly versatile. My wife carries the HK 9 and it is her baby. Its a easy gun to shoot accurately and it can be carried in about any mode you want. They have a better trigger than the P30 IMO. BTW....I also have owned a G26 and G27. I carried them for awhile years ago. They are a bit too thick these days and I have replaced them with the thinner Shield 9mm.

[Dragline45]

Look into the Sig 239 or the Beretta PX4 Storm Compact.

[Pukindog12]

Walther P99 AS.

[Uncle Malice]

The P2000 is a better carry size for CCW. The P30 is larger in the grip.

If you're looking at the P2000 - I asctually prefer the USP Compact 9mm. It uses the same magazines as the P2000. The trigger is a little better in the USP Compact in my opinion.. .and you can swap the USP between standard DA/SA or LEM if you decide to try that... where with the P2000/P30 series the gun can not be modified between the different trigger systems.

The P2000SK is a good option too. It's just a hair larger than the G27 but in DA/SA... so that might be something you would like.

[TunnelRat]

Pretty much everything has been said. The P2000 or USP compact are noticeably shorter in the grip than a P30, just get some flat baseplates for the mags from hkparts or you can order the mags with flat baseplates right now from CDNN.

The USP compact has a better trigger and is more versatile in trigger adjustments and carry modes than the P2000. The trigger on the USP will be a lot closer to that of your SIG. That said I do find the P2000 more comfortable in the hand especially with the replaceable backstraps. Either is a great pistol, I'm currently getting a USP compact in addition to the two P2000s I have.

[carguychris]

I'm not familiar with Walther other than a little I've read here. Is there a specific model there I should consider?
Walther P99 AS.
Agreed; however, given the OP's desire for a G27-sized pistol, he/she is presumably after the P99c AS Compact, current SKU# 2796376.

Be forewarned- Walther P99 availability seems to be spotty recently. It may take some searching to find this particular pistol. I have not seen a NIB P99c at a LGS in quite some time. YMMV. :)

To address the original question in a bit more detail... in terms of Walther's entire lineup, including used guns, IMHO the P99 is the most likely model to fit your requirements. The PPS is not DA/SA, and the PP/PPK series has never been offered in 9mm Luger; FWIW the uncommon PP Super was chambered for an oddball proprietary cartridge called the 9x18 Ultra or 9mm Police. Compact versions of the P38/P1 family and the P88 exist, but these pistols sold poorly in the USA due to very high prices when new, and avid collector interest has driven the current value of most decent examples into 4 figures; IOW most of them are safe queens rather than carry guns.

[EDIT] The P99c AS was also sold in mildly restyled form as the S&W SW99c from (IIRC) the late 90's until the mid 00's. These were built under license by S&W in MA, and are exactly the same as a P99c under the skin. These guns can generally be picked up for less than Walthers (or most S&W's!) because collectors of both brands seem to proverbially consider them neither fish nor fowl; however, they did not sell well, so finding a good one may be an issue.

[carguychris]

Have you considered a 3rd-generation S&W metal-frame 9mm compact? :)

These were available in both single-stack 7/8rd guise (3913, 3914, 908) or double-stack 10/12rd form (6904, 6906, 6926). All are discontinued and some can be had quite cheap, but I believe that their values have bottomed out, and are now going up. :cool:

[Tactical Jackalope]

Heh... I carry the P226 and P220.

The HK P2000 in 9mm is a fine choice.

You sure you can't do a P229 or P228? Have you tried?

[Kevin_d77]

228 FTW. My 220 fits both of my 228 holsters too which is pretty sweet!

[Strafer Gott]

Sig 224 if you really like the 226. 12+1, small but not too small. Comes with 3 mags for extended ammo supply. It takes a little practice to master that Sig DA trigger. I learned it with my 226. With the 224 you don't need to learn a new trigger as the manual of arms is pretty much the same model to model with Sigs. That said, the only thing that bugs me about the HK P30 is the loud clack from the de-cocker. Other than that, it's a fine weapon. The HK USP in 9mm is another awesome handgun. I have the USP45 compact, and I consider it the King of pocket pistols. The HK and Sig handguns pretty much require deep pockets to begin with!

[Tactical Jackalope]

That said, the only thing that bugs me about the HK P30 is the loud clack from the de-cocker.

That's hilarious that you mentioned that. I jokingly compare that between the two all the time. With my buddies who carry HK's. I say "see how unstealthy that is?" as I make an awkward face. Sounds like it's being dry fired.

I thought I was the only one who noticed to comment about that.

[TunnelRat]

That's hilarious that you mentioned that. I jokingly compare that between the two all the time. With my buddies who carry HK's. I say "see how unstealthy that is?" as I make an awkward face. Sounds like it's being dry fired.

Put your thumb over the cocked hammer as you use the same thumb to hit the decocker button, then just lower your thumb. Simple simon.

[Uncle Malice]

Yeah... if you really NEED to be stealthy... you can decock quietly.

There's also LEM... no decock necessary. :)

[mavracer]

I admit I really haven't looked at the P30 much in person but is it really much smaller than a P228? It doesn't seem like it's much IIRC.

[TunnelRat]

I admit I really haven't looked at the P30 much in person but is it really much smaller than a P228? It doesn't seem like it's much IIRC.

Nope, the grip is actually longer on a P30 than a P229, though not by much.

[Uncle Malice]

It is slimmer though. By a fair amount if you don't get the safety version.

[TunnelRat]

It is slimmer though. By a fair amount if you don't get the safety version.

Oh definitely.

To me if you want a concealed carry weapon from HK look at the P2000, P2000sk, HK45c, or USP compact. The P30 to me is more of a duty-sized pistol, albeit a very sexy one. And there are plenty of folks that can carry those sized pistols well.

[MtnMike1]

Thanks guys, this is helpful info. HK's website shows P30, USP and P200 all the same basic height 5.43 to 5.40. I'm assuming height to be measured from the bottom of the grip to the top of the slide, is that correct? It also shows the P200 and P30 to be 7" in length vs 7.64 for the USP and all within 2 oz. of each other in weight.

If this is correct they are about the same size as the M11 A1. (7.1 L, 5.4 H, 1.5W) although the Sig is 8-9 oz. heavier due to the metal. If this is true I'm thinking why learn a different trigger while I'm still adjusting to the 226. The flip side is the M11 A1 is not much smaller than my 226. Now I see why you guys buy so many guns. (lol)

Then there is the USP compact at .4" shorter and .3" more narrow than the other HKs. How does the recoil compare on the Compact vs the other HKS? Is the V3 trigger good out of the box? So it sounds like if I want smaller gun than the Sig M11 A1 I should go with the USP compact. Am I missing anything?

[TunnelRat]

Then there is the USP compact at .4" shorter and .3" more narrow than the other HKs.

The P2000 is the exact same height with the flat baseplates.

[TunnelRat]

If this is correct they are about the same size as the M11 A1. (7.1 L, 5.4 H, 1.5W) although the Sig is 8-9 oz. heavier due to the metal. If this is true I'm thinking why learn a different trigger while I'm still adjusting to the 226. The flip side is the M11 A1 is not much smaller than my 226. Now I see why you guys buy so many guns. (lol)


There is a difference between overall height and length of the grip. While the overall height is similar, the bore axis on the SIG is a bit taller and the grip is shorter.

[MtnMike1]

My bad on the height, I had noted 5.40 for the P200 but it was actually 5.04 so they are the same. Could someone explain the difference in the triggers. I get the V3 is DA/SA but not sure the difference between V1 and V2. Also, how good are the three dot sites?

[TunnelRat]

My bad on the height, I had noted 5.40 for the P200 but it was actually 5.04 so they are the same. Could someone explain the difference in the triggers. I get the V3 is DA/SA but not sure the difference between V1 and V2. Also, how good are the three dot sites?

The sights have three dots, just like your SIG. They're not night sights, unless you get a LE package that sometimes shows up. You can easily get night sights if you want. Stock it's three white dots on black.

V1 and V2 depend on which model HK you're talking about. On the P-series pistols V1 is the LEM trigger but with a light trigger pull, say 5 lbs. V2 is also a LEM trigger but with a heavier pull of say 7.5-8 lbs. V3 is DA/SA. On a USP series pistol the V1 is DA/SA with decocker/safety. The full list of USP variants can be found on the product page for the USP.

As to what LEM is, I'll leave to others to explain. I've explained it before but I'm never sure if I do it well.

[MtnMike1]

Which trigger system has the manual safety?

[Uncle Malice]

You want a USP Compact 9mm V1 :)

It's the DA/SA with safety/decocker lever on the side (classic style). Yes, it's smaller than the M11.

Like this:

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae140/formfill/img_8042_2_noserial.jpg

I ordered my new USP Compact V1 yesterday to replace the HK 45C I traded over last weekend. It's small enough to carry comfortably and recoil isn't bad at all. It has the HK recoil reducing buffer on the spring.

I have owned both the P2000 and USP Compact in the past. As I noted, I'm getting the USP Compact again. As for the out of box trigger, HK's are known to be a little stiff and/or gritty out of the box. I used to say that I was not a fan of HK trigger because of this... however... they break in very nicely. What I recommend - and what I do to all of my HK's now - is to put a snap cap in it and dry fire the crap out of the gun for a weekend or a week before you shoot it. Practice the trigger pull. Build the muscle memory in your trigger, and help break it in. You'll probably find that you shoot it better from the start when you do that because you're not still getting used to the trigger by the time you shoot it.

[TunnelRat]

On the P series pistols? The V doesn't denote whether it does or doesn't have a safety for them. You can get a V3 with a safety I am not sure about LEM. Again product pages exist for a reason. There are no versions of the P2000 with a safety.

[Uncle Malice]

You are correct.

The DA/SA with safety is unavailable on a P2000. That's why I referenced the USP Compact, since it's really the only variant that denotes the manual safety version.

USP is V1 for DA/SA w/ safety.

P2000 is V3 for DA/SA (no safety - decock only)

You can get a P30 with a safety, but that's the P30S - and I don't recommend it. :p It's ambidextrous and just feels weird to me. Rubbed on my thumb the wrong way.

[TunnelRat]

By the way you can get a USP compact with decocker/ safety and with a $17 parts swap it becomes decocker only. That is what I do.

[948]

I have a CZ 75 compact that is my favorite. The Bersa Thunder UC Pro is another option that is DA/SA.

[Worc]

Nothing wrong with going with a HK or Sig. I ended up going with a P-30 (V3) for my CCW. I wanted something a little smaller and lighter than my 226. While the P-30 overall is similar in size to the Sig M-11 and 229. It's quite a bit lighter in weight and the longer grip is much better for my hand. I did give give up a better trigger from the Sigs (especially the SRT) with going with the P-30.

In addition to the above models there are the HK P200 and HK USP C. For less coin, there are the Sig 2022, FNH FNX and Beretta PX-4. If you don't mind DAO, there is the Sig 250 C. The Walther P99 AS is a striker with a decocker. I don't have any experience with CZ, but there is a P-07 as well that's DA/SA in a similar sized package.

Get out and hold or shoot if possible as many as you can and see what one you like the best.

[RC20]

I carry the SP2022. It works fine, not sure its for everyone but no issue for me.

It and the P30 are pretty much the same frame size. They both feel solid for a Poly gun.

I generally like the controls on the SP2022 better and the grip on the P30 better. They both shoot well. Triggers a wash with the P30 a bit better SA with more reset needed and the Sig DA better.

[JimmyR]

I have not had the joy of handling one (yet) but perhaps the CZ 75 PCR (alloy decocker SA/DA) might be up your alley?

[roadrash]

I think a P239 would also be a good option if you wasnt to stay with a DA/SA

[chaim]

Hmm, DA/SA and around the size of the Glock 26/27? If it was me, I'd look one of two ways. I'd probably pick up the new SIG P224. However, another interesting direction to look is the 3rd Gen S&W CS (Chief's Special) series. They were available in 9mm (CS9), .40S&W (CS40) and .45ACP (CS45) depending upon your preferences, though they may not be easy to find these days (not many sold, and people who have them tend to hold on to them). If you don't mind a little bigger, it is hard to go wrong with a CZ P01/PCR or a SIG P239.

[Pukindog12]

Another option: Bersa Thunder 9UC Pro. IMO a damn good weapon. ;)

[pat701]

Buy once buy right, Sig P239 in 9mm. You will never regret it;)

[Uncle Malice]

Buy once buy right, Sig P239 in 9mm. You will never regret it;)

I did. Twice. First time in 357sig, the second time in 9mm. Sold both times. It's the only classic style Sig that I absolutely do not like.

[larryh1108]

I also suggest the CZ75 Compact or PCR. Smaller than the Glock, 14+1 and fits the hand very nicely.

[Tomac]

I've carried both the SIG SP2022 and Beretta PX4 Compact. The SIG is the best value, IMHO, (w/night sights it costs the same as the PX4 w/o them) but I shoot the PX4 so much better that it's my EDC (YMMV).
Tomac

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/P1110005.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Tomac/media/P1110005.jpg.html)

[dgludwig]

Have you considered a 3rd-generation S&W metal-frame 9mm compact?

This is my suggestion also. I especially like the Model 6906 for a carry concealed pistol. Some might consider Smith "Third Generation" variants to be a bit heavy for their size and others may regard them as being a little "dated" in their design but few knowledgeable shooters would call them anything but super-reliable, well-built and plenty accurate pistols.