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Ray33
January 11, 2014, 09:01 PM
I apologize if this incident has already been covered in another thread but I'm trying to find out what people suggest would be the appropriate tactics for dealing with incident that occurred in Pennsylvania. Apparently in the incident the driver of one vehicle followed the driver of another vehicle for more than 10 miles while ramming and shooting at him. Eventually, the road rage driver ran the other car off the road before shooting the driver to death. The victim apparently had been calling 911 while he was trying to avoid the aggressive driver.

What do people on this forum recommend that the appropriate response would have been being that the deceased driver didn't have a firearm? Also what would be the appropriate response for someone in that situation who did have a firearm but was being pursued a driver who was ramming and shooting at his vehicle?

Here's a news article about incident:

http://www.businessinsider.com/road-rage-timothy-davison-2014-1

TXAZ
January 11, 2014, 09:09 PM
Call 911, ask where the nearest officer / station is and which way to close the distance, and slow down a little to ensure vehicle control.

Quincunx
January 11, 2014, 10:31 PM
This is not too far from where I live. Sobering thought.

std7mag
January 11, 2014, 10:36 PM
Heck, even with your CCW Permit, if you show a gun to an enraged motorist, it's a "road rage" incident, and you are the one in trouble!!

Cop one time tried to nail me with "aggressive driving" when I told him "the sign say's yield, NOT surrender"... :D

Frank Ettin
January 11, 2014, 10:51 PM
Okay, this is the Tactics & Training Forum. So the question is whether there is anything we can learn from the incident.

AK103K
January 11, 2014, 11:10 PM
Id say learn how to use your car as a weapon, even if you have a gun along.

Getting them in front of you, gives you more options than letting them push you. Assuming theres only one person in the car, they'll have a harder time shooing you too.

I live in central PA, and it can be quite a challenge driving here. For some reason, there are a LOT of control freaks out here, and that bleeds over into the highways, making driving quite the aggravating experience sometimes. Im really surprised there arent more instances of road rage.

WardenWolf
January 12, 2014, 12:29 AM
Agreed on learning to use your car as a weapon. Knowing when to slam on the brakes is as important as knowing when to hit the gas. If you can make them blow right by you, you may be able to escape or at least gain some valuable distance. Whatever you do, do NOT let them pull directly alongside you. If you cannot prevent them from overtaking you and doing that, slam on the brakes.

I drive a Toyota FJ Cruiser, which has a lot of power and speed for its size (particularly if you add the TRD Cold Air Intake). In situations like that, I may take advantage of my offroad capabilities to go places my pursuer cannot. I can cross dirt medians and drive over curbs that would slow or disable a lesser vehicle.

ClydeFrog
January 12, 2014, 02:21 AM
There are a few lessons this incident can provide.
A lot like the NY area biker attack last year(2013).
Common sense & good judgement are a start.
Avoid aggressive drivers or vehicles you see swerve/drive unsafe.
In reality, some drivers are just obnoxious or distracted(phones, texting, radio, eating, yelling, etc). Your honk or lane change may set them off. Just hang back if you can & avoid them. If you can get the vehicle's tag # & description. Note the location of the incident too. It will help dispatchers or troopers find the area or know where the responding officers can intercept the road rager.
Use tablet DV/cell phone video to document the actions.
I'd keep a spare, small cell phone as a back-up. If you are run off the road or you wreck, you'll have quick access to either phone to get aid.
Id get into the habit of having a extra extended pistol magazine or 2 also. If you run dry or get into a protracted incident you may need the extra rounds.
If you get into a road rage incident & it looks like you'll be attacked, be ready to act quickly & decisively. Use cover & try to put the road rager/attacker at a disadvantage.

WardenWolf
January 12, 2014, 04:59 AM
A few things of note:

Caliber: You want a heavier caliber in case you need to shoot through a car door. Army tests with submachine guns have shown that 9mm sometimes has a problem penetrating car doors, and can deflect significantly, but .45 ACP goes through like a hot knife through butter.

Ammo type: You should consider using FMJ for the same reasons. You need something that will penetrate and hit the bad guy.

Gun type: You want a soft-recoiling gun for better control, as you may need to shoot it one-handed while driving. This also reduces the risk of accidentally dropping it.

Pilot
January 12, 2014, 05:44 AM
If he was pursued for ten miles, wouldn't there be the possibility of going to a populated area where many people were around? How about driving to a police station?

Pond, James Pond
January 12, 2014, 05:59 AM
Road rage freaks me out.

It is one of those behaviours that is pretty unpredictable (OK, some cars seem to scream "My driver has esteem issues"), and as the term suggests, people react out of all proportionality and rationality.

Cars often magnify people's faults but not necessarily their virtues and seem to be a conduit, like the internet, for actions/attitudes that they would usually not be prone to. I see A LOT of it here: there is a fairly common neanderthaliod macho-man mentality in this country. Some guys never get passed puberty... :rolleyes:

When I ride my motorbike, I very often have been subjected to aggressive, hazardous driving. On two wheels my only option is evasion. Agility and acceleration are my friends.

In the case of that poor driver, evasion is made harder, especially if the antagonist was driving one of the very large models you often see in the States.

If possible and if speed is not your strong suit, then trying to manoeuvre so that your car is on the other side from the driver to make shooting harder. Make lots of turns. If vehicle size is equal or in your favour, try and get behind and nudge the rear wing, hopefully causing the other car to spin around the engine block's axis.

All hypothetical and very hard to do under pressure, but what else can you do?

AK103K
January 12, 2014, 06:27 AM
Caliber: You want a heavier caliber in case you need to shoot through a car door. Army tests with submachine guns have shown that 9mm sometimes has a problem penetrating car doors, and can deflect significantly, but .45 ACP goes through like a hot knife through butter.
I found just the opposite to be true.

Back in the mid 70's, my buddys uncle had a junk yard, and we shot into a number of late 60, early 70's vintage cars, using .45acp, 9mm, .357mag and .44mag, and the .45acp had the most trouble getting through the doors, especially when it encountered the heavy steel cross members they started to put in the doors back then. The 9mm usually zipped right through, and through the 3/4" piece of plywood that was our "target" inside. Some made it through the door on the other side. Both the 9mm and .45 we were using were FMJ. The .357's results were very similar to the 9mm, and the .44's usually had no troubles getting through both sides. The .357's and .44's were a mix of JHP and LSWC's.

Mainah
January 12, 2014, 08:04 AM
The victim was from a local town, so the story has gotten a lot of press here in Maine. Very sad. He was at a huge disadvantage because it was late at night, and he was driving in a rural area that he didn't know.

Plus he was trying to avoid the shooter while calling the police. I doubt he even knew where to find a populated area. And he was unarmed. Keep in mind that he was driving back to Maine from Florida. That route takes you through either NY or NJ, and MA. So legal carry would have been a real challenge.

Skadoosh
January 12, 2014, 08:15 AM
WardenWolf wrote: Army tests with submachine guns have shown that 9mm sometimes has a problem penetrating car doors, and can deflect significantly, but .45 ACP goes through like a hot knife through butter.

I have never heard of this test.

g.willikers
January 12, 2014, 09:11 AM
Apparently, the pursuer only fired on the victim when he had a stationary target.
As much time as we spend in our cars, maybe knowing how to drive better would have helped.

AK103K
January 12, 2014, 09:51 AM
As much time as we spend in our cars, maybe knowing how to drive better would have helped.
Theres knowing how to drive, and theres knowing how to purposely annoy. Not saying that was the case here, but it does seem to happen quite a bit.

As I said, there are a lot of people around here who are control freaks, and I suppose for many, the only power they have in their lives, is when they are in their cars, and unfortunately, ahead of you.

Around here, one of the big games is, drive 40 in a 55 (when most want to go 70+) and when one of the few passing zones pops up, and the person behind you, who has been going nuts just poking along on your bumper, wants to pass, they speed up and wont let you pass, matching your speed, until the passing zone runs out and you have to drop back, then its back to 15 miles under the limit.

Another game is get in the passing lane on the four lane, and do the speed limit, next to someone in the right lane who is also doing the speed limit (or under). PA has a law that the left lane is for passing only, and its fairly well posted on the main highways, but I have yet to see it enforced.

I drive a lot for work, and Ive seen quite a bit this going on, and of carrying on between people over stuff like this, but usually nothing more than words and gestures. We did have a shooting locally a couple of years back over it. It too happened after a prolonged drive/chase, and when they finally stopped at the intersection of a busy highway.

I think your best bet, it to "try" and contain your anger, and use your head. Most people dont think of using their car as a weapon, and I suppose most people arent of the mindset to think about using anything as a weapon, at least until its to late. I dont think when its happening, is the time to try and figure it out.

WardenWolf
January 12, 2014, 11:13 AM
Not the military study, as I can't find the link, but here's a civilian testing handgun rounds against a Buick:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3_2.htm

Now, note that all rounds penetrated, even 9mm. Point is, your car offers next to no protection from handgun rounds. Your best bet is to try to place multiple layers in between you and the shooter. The trunk of a car, the bed and back cab of a pickup, the spare tire, rear door, and multiple rows of seats of an SUV.

ClydeFrog
January 12, 2014, 12:24 PM
First, contacting LE or the area's highway patrol are good ideas but pulling into a office/troop barracks/sub-station may not always work. :(
Many rural sheriffs departments, state police or patrol troops and/or other government offices may not be occupied/open 24/07/365.

Some state agencies use troop offices rarely & just go there to get patrol vehicles serviced or review reports/paperwork then they split.
Many US police agencies have budget cuts or are under-strength so I wouldn't count on a small sub-station or building being the "best" place to run to in a road rage event.

I would agree with using a handgun or weapon you might need to use one-handed. A high cap magazine helps lower recoil & gives you more shots. A laser-aimer/white-light could help too but mostly in low light events.
Using FMJs or +P+ type rounds in extra magazines is smart.
I plan to buy a new 9x19mm pistol soon to carry on security details. I'll load Hornady Critical Duty +P 135gr in my regular magazine & then carry 2 extra mags with either PowRball, Ranger T 124gr 9mmNATO or Buffalo Bore's powerful 9mm +P+ FMJ 124gr Penetrator.
It's important too, not to panic or emotional. If you drive erratic you may injury or hit someone then look like your at fault. :rolleyes:

Dwight55
January 12, 2014, 01:33 PM
Always remember that the one who initiates action usually has the upper hand.

In the case of being pursued, . . . your brakes and your rear view mirror are your friends, . . .

Accelerate and pull away, . . . but let him think he's catching you, . . . and slam on the brakes, . . . make him rear end you.

Generally speaking the rear car makes out worse, . . . possibly losing a front tire, tie rod, radiator, headlights, . . . which can end the chase if not right there, . . . a few miles down the road as the engine seizes up, . . . tire goes flat, . . . etc.

But even if they pull along side of you, . . . a quick braking action, and turning into their rear quarter panel, . . . can flip their vehicle.

Remember, . . . the winner is almost always the one that got aggressive enough, . . . quickly enough.

I was chased by a teen aged thug a number of years ago, . . . I was afraid he had a gun, . . . and as he came up behind me in a slight left hand curve, . . . I allowed him to get his front bumber almost to my drivers door when I took the left lane, . . . the wrecker had to play out just about all the steel cable they had to drag him out of the corn field.

Running almost never solves the problem, . . . confronting it might get you hurt, . . . but at least by confronting and acting, . . . your future is in your hands, . . . not his.

May God bless,
Dwight

Strafer Gott
January 12, 2014, 02:41 PM
Remember children, the "stars" come out at night. Lonely roads in the wee small hours is one way to enhance your risk experience. Some of us appreciate the fact that our world is not as safe as some would have us believe.
If you whistle your way down enough dark alleys, someone is bound to hear you. Have a care! Darwin and the Devil snare whom they may. This is a cautionary tale at best.

dakota.potts
January 12, 2014, 08:28 PM
I don't think it's a good idea to think that you're going to be driving 55 miles an hour on a dark rural road and trying to shoot one handed at the same time. It's a nice romantic gesture of self-defense, but how many of us have the driving AND shooting skills to do it?

My mom grew up in an area where road rage was very bad, and although her teaching me to drive was a pain (I hate doing more than 5 over the speed limit) I did learn some things to minimize it. Stay out of the left lane if you're not doing a decent number of the speed limit. If someone comes flying up behind you, just let them over and let them do whatever insane speed they want to be doing. If you're on a two lane road and you see someone behind you driving erratically, in my opinion, it might be the better option to do a few over the speed limit until you can find a place to pull off and let them pass, as usually that will help pacify them if you're like me and like to do exactly as the signs say.

If someone's acting very aggressively for a long time, get on the phone with 911. Some cars, like our Kia, have a system built in that will connect to your phone through bluetooth and allow you to call simply by pressing a button on your steering wheel. This is preferable to a handheld flip phone because it leaves both hands free.

Your car is a weapon. Also, think outside the box. People have a tendency to follow societal rules even in emergencies (Pax at the corneredcat has done a good article on this, and I like to point to the Station Night club fire where people were trampled to death all insisting on exiting the way they came in) but do you have other options? Can you get into the oncoming lane and slam your breaks? Can you cross a median they can't? Does your car have offroad capabilities, and if so, are there any chances for you to leave the main road long enough to escape?

Finally, my gun does ride with me in the car when I go places. It's in its gun case (must be "securely encased" in Florida and it doesn't fit in the center console) and I have it loaded full 16+1 with an extra 15 rounds of 9mm JHP. I don't imagine I'll likely have to shoot it one handed while driving, but there are road rage cases of people being followed home and cornered at stop lights where they're shot or pulled out of their car and beaten.

TenRing
January 12, 2014, 10:27 PM
This was a difficult situation for the victim because he was likely driving in unfamiliar territory late at night and in bad weather with icy roads.

Maybe the take-away is to try to drive unfamiliar roads in the daylight hours so you are less likely to be alone on the road with a homicidal lunatic.

It seems like the victim's SUV should have been able to out-drive a Ford Ranger pickup. I owned a Ranger once and it was no speed demon.

In hindsight, it might be a good tactic to speed up and drive as fast as possible while flashing the hazard lights. This might get the attention of a highway patrol officer if he is waiting to enforce the speed limit. Otherwise, try to maneuver to the rear of the assailant so he will have less opportunity to shoot.

If the assailant is to your rear, throw things out your window to distract him. Any heavy object might crack his windshield and cause some distraction but you also run the risk of enraging him further.

If you have a gun and you can not outrun the perp, then you might need to exit the vehicle and take cover in a field. Then, be prepared to defend yourself if he pursues you.

mdd
January 12, 2014, 10:29 PM
I appreciate posts like these because they remind me to appreciate where I live that much more. I can't imagine spending my life in a place where I may get murdered for frustrating a fellow motorist.

johnelmore
January 12, 2014, 11:14 PM
I have been the victim of a few incidents of road rage where people were following me. Here are some of the tactics I tried to lose them:

One time I jammed on the brakes to lock up forcing the other driver to pass me. Then I slowed to half the limit. The other driver slowed and we were almost at a stop on a 45 mph highway and a big rig sounded its horn. Thats when the other driver pulled into a gas station and I floored it losing him.

Another time I was being followed in a city and made a dangerous right turn at a red with a no red turn sign.

Quite a while back I drove a Mustang 5 liter and there was a Caddy following me. I had that car up to 130 losing them and then ducked into a rest area watching as the Caddy flew by.

When people want to get you its amazing what Dukes of Hazard style driving they are willing to do with their car. Try not to anger anyone on the road, but if you are on the road a lot like me its not a matter of if but when. Eventually you will cut someone off by mistake.

BlackFeather
January 13, 2014, 12:12 AM
From what I read, it was around 2A.M. How do you put someone in such a rage at 2A.M.? Was there really that much traffic? I don't think it was road rage. I think it was either a sick game, or premeditated. Harder to track down someone close if it was done on a highway.

Nanuk
January 13, 2014, 12:43 AM
There is always more to the story. I always try to apologize if I did something wrong to upset the other driver. Sometimes that diffuses it right there and the whole thing can be avoided. I have also just allowed people to drive on raging and essentially ignored them. I observe and ensure that is all they do, if it progresses past that point I will do what I need to do. I have some pretty good
offensive driving training and experience, a 75 MPH PITT works nice. I like what Clint Smith said "Drive or shoot."

johnelmore
January 13, 2014, 05:54 AM
There are a lot of unreasonable people with issues out there. Just look at the news or even the local police blotter. Its not hard to bump into the wrong person even at 2am.

skizzums
January 13, 2014, 08:40 AM
theres alot to read on this thread, so im sure if this was said, but get up to a high speed and slam the brakes, only damage your going to sustain is fenders being pushed into your rear wheels and possible gas tank if its very high speed, but his car will most likely be inoperable, at the very least his radiator will be blown and he will be overheating in a very short time

g.willikers
January 13, 2014, 09:55 AM
Guess some of those replying have never experienced a rear end collision.
Definitely not going to be my choice.
Twice I have been the intended victim of someone trying to run me off the road.
Both times with no previous interaction or warning.
And in broad daylight on regular roads, with plenty of other cars around.
Both times I just ran away from them, thanks to a few curves in the road, the poor driving skills of the other guy, and the alcohol or drugs they had probably been using.
One missed the curve entirely and landed in a mud hole.
The other one plumb disappeared somewhere and never exited the curve.
Must have found a wormhole into another universe or something.

skizzums
January 13, 2014, 11:34 AM
well obviuosly getting away would be everyones first choice, but after ten miles of trying(and being shot at), what would you do if that wasnt an option? lets say hes in a new stingray and your in a 1991 hyundai

101combatvet
January 13, 2014, 12:12 PM
Not to put the blame on the victim, but I have to wonder what he did to **** off his killer. :eek:

zxcvbob
January 13, 2014, 01:11 PM
There was another story a couple of months ago, it got reported as 2 road-ragers got into a shootout and killed each other. The few facts available suggest that it was 1 RR'er who followed someone into a carwash and murdered him; the mortally wounded victim managed to get HIS gun out of the car and shot his attacker about 5 times (no misses!) and killed him.

There's a point to this... society seems to think if you do anything other than roll-over-and-die you were not really a victim but a mutual combatant. Only the police are given broad discretion regarding use-of-force in self defense. It may be better to "be tried by 12 than carried by 6", but how do you defend yourself in time to actually save yourself? If someone is trying to run you off the road and you bump them and send them out of control into a oak tree, YOU now are going to be seen as a murdering road rage idiot.

It's a conundrum.

ClydeFrog
January 13, 2014, 03:19 PM
About 4/5 years ago, a local fire marshal got into a heated road rage dispute while on duty in his own private vehicle. The marshal had a valid CCW & a pistol. :eek:
His yelling & screaming turned into a assault by the other driver. The fire marshal drew his pistol & fired claiming self defense.
He faced formal criminal charges for wounding the other driver in the dispute but I think the State Atty & prosecutors decided to drop the case.
The road rage driver pled no contest to striking the fire marshal in the incident.

Almost anyone can get into a road rage event. The point is to stay calm, be mature & be alert to other motorists who you might think are reckless, aggressive or intoxicated.

edit; due to content, corrections of details

g.willikers
January 13, 2014, 03:56 PM
These stories are getting downright scary.
Anyone have a low mileage Kenilworth they want to sell?

johnelmore
January 13, 2014, 04:59 PM
Horsepower is the key to escape...

101combatvet
January 13, 2014, 05:13 PM
Defending yourself over reckless endangerment in a trail would be difficult unless you were run over a few times. If there are no witnesses I would spice it up a bit.

Tinner666
January 13, 2014, 06:05 PM
I let the chase get up to 65-70 on a two-lane and suddenly did a 180. Never even touched a ditch. I couldn't say the same for the other guy though.:eek: All the dust and debris I saw in the review suggests he may have flipped.

I studied Chitwood and have many hours of practice. Even a 180 in reverse is easy if you practice. Just don't touch the brake pedal!:eek:

g.willikers
January 13, 2014, 06:39 PM
Did you use the emergency brake to do the 180?

Venom1956
January 13, 2014, 07:01 PM
I had some trashy Eclipse try to run me off the road. Easiest think to do is stop. If they get out to confront you burn outta there.

If the occupant was shooting that's a different story. changing direction with right hand turns to put as much distance/objects between you two would be helpful.

It could be a gamble but getting up to a good speed and hitting the brakes might work in your favor. His front end will be crunched airbags will go off. Ideally your car my be able to limp away while theirs is broken. Cars are designed to crumple and such for safety.

FWD can sustain pretty much any kind rear dmg as the front will just drag it along. But I've been rear ended in a RWD and mine worked sorta his was toast.

Depending on the cars involved pushing someones car around isn't rocket science. your front axle to their rear accelerate and turn in. that'll send em spinning.

This might sound kind of horrible but bring the attack if possible to an area fun of people. Rural road is one thing. pull into a gas station with six or seven people there is another. Might cause them to think twice.

If possible depending on the makes if your vehicle can go somewhere they cannot follow do that? Either they give up or get stuck trying to follow? Off road. Jumping a large curb.

I would agree with above keep the speed as fast as you can but with in the realm of your control. if you doing 115 on ice and spin out into a snow bank that is not gonna help better to go slower.

I guess another thing to consider is ammunition the aggressor has. Guessing what probably fifty rounds would be reasonable to assume? fullsized gun 2 mags? Perhaps more. Doubtful unless you are really unlucky. If u can keep somewhat safe he is going to run out eventually.

Mainah
January 13, 2014, 07:03 PM
Again based on all the local coverage: the victim was a car enthusiast, he knew how to drive, and he had a pretty extensive record of speeding violations. In no way am I implying that he deserved this, by all local accounts he was a great guy.

I have been in several pretty bad cases of road rage. The last one was a couple of years ago and it got really ugly after I thoughtlessly gave the finger to a guy who was tailgating me. He tried to run me off the road and I ended up stuck at an intersection with him next to me. I had to swallow my pride and avoid any eye contact while he stood outside my car and screamed at me. Maybe it was my willingness to let him feel like a big man, or maybe it was the fact that he saw me staring straight ahead with my phone in one hand and a tire iron in the other.

Either way I knew that I got lucky. Now I pull over and let every aggressive driver pass me and find someone else to rage on.

101combatvet
January 13, 2014, 11:38 PM
^Good advice.^

Model12Win
January 14, 2014, 12:06 AM
These kinds of things are what's really got me interested in getting concealed carry, as I drive quite a bit between state lines and have seen a number of people on the interstates and in the cities who gave me pause.

Model12Win
January 14, 2014, 12:29 AM
I think if one were to have a car gun or use there CCW while driving, perhaps some of the new bonded JHPs like Hornady Critical Duty would be nice to have. They are advertised to expand but hold together to defeat different barriers such as auto glass and door panels, etc. One never knows if the only option would be to shoot through either your own windshield or theirs etc.

DonR
January 14, 2014, 03:02 AM
I am thinking his last thought was "Why didn't I bring a good gun on this trip?"

WardenWolf
January 14, 2014, 03:29 AM
Back in 2002, I had some crazy nut come after me on the SR51 in Phoenix. I was 20 at the time, and didn't have a gun in the car. I was stopped at a red light, waiting to turn onto the freeway, and the light turned green. He didn't go. I honked to get his attention, then switched to the outer turn lane and passed him since he was still going slowly.

Well, something snapped in his head or something and he was coming after me, matching my every move and trying to pull up on my left side with his passenger window down. I did everything I could to avoid him. Fortunately I was driving a 2001 V6 Cougar, a fairly quick car, but I was still a fairly inexperienced driver. It's a miracle I didn't get into a wreck trying to avoid him, as I tailgated other vehicles closely in any gap I could find to put semis and other large vehicles between me and him. Eventually I got a straightaway and his older vehicle couldn't keep up with mine, and he exited. I estimate he'd chased me for around 5 miles, at speeds approaching 100 mph.

After that I started carrying my Ruger P90 in the door pouch. The large handgun had been a gift from my father a few years prior, and its leather case was a perfect fit for the door pouch and was completely invisible from the outside with the doors closed. I could unzip it one-handed if I had to. Never had to use it, but came close about 18 months ago when some road rager actually got out of his car and stormed up to my passenger window. Had he tried to break that window, his life would have been forfeit as I would have feared for the life of my passenger at that point.

Tinner666
January 14, 2014, 09:14 AM
Did you use the emergency brake to do the 180?


Yes, E-Brake and turn wheel at same time. Brake lights won't come on and alert the perp. Practice at slow spped in a large parking lot. Make sure your direction of travel is AWAY from any poles, trees, curbs, etc. while learning.

I found out that kids shouldn't be in the car when doing the reverse 180. My 9 yo daughter was in the car when I went down a dead end valley. She was strapped into the regular seatbelts.
I reversed and at about 40, cut the wheel to the right and went to neutral/then drive as it swapped ends. She came out of the seat and I caught her with my right arm as she went over the front seat. She was hysterically laughing and even though she said she wouldn't, she told mom right away what happened.:eek:

Practice in snow or dirt, or a wet parking lot. Offside front wheel often comes off the ground about a foot on dry pavement. Watch a scene on TV. The roads are wet down before stunts. Take not of previous skidmarks in those scenes and you'll see it's practiced 'in place'.

Every winter and in mud, etc., I practice. Because of the practice, I can maneuver radically in an emergency lane change, or skid and I'm down the road before I'm able to think about what had just happened.

Tinner666
January 14, 2014, 09:16 AM
[QUOTE]Again based on all the local coverage: the victim was a car enthusiast, he knew how to drive, and he had a pretty extensive record of speeding violations. In no way am I implying that he deserved this, by all local accounts he was a great guy.

That only means he drove fast. Master the 4-wheel drift and get to where you're as comfortable driving sideways and backwards and steering with the drive wheels and you can out run them nearly every time. Often without breaking the speed limit if you can get on a winding road. A straightaway chase will get you nowhere.
I taught my son these tricks and he's a state trooper and nobody has gotten away from im yet, though I might give him a race for his money day for laughs.



I have been in several pretty bad cases of road rage. The last one was a couple of years ago and it got really ugly after I thoughtlessly gave the finger to a guy who was tailgating me. He tried to run me off the road and I ended up stuck at an intersection with him next to me. I had to swallow my pride and avoid any eye contact while he stood outside my car and screamed at me. Maybe it was my willingness to let him feel like a big man, or maybe it was the fact that he saw me staring straight ahead with my phone in one hand and a tire iron in the other.

Either way I knew that I got lucky. Now I pull over and let every aggressive driver pass me and find someone else to rage on.
That's the way to do it.

lcpiper
January 14, 2014, 04:27 PM
I am not so sure trying to maneuver your car to the rear is such a good idea. Yes it puts you where it's harder for the other guy to shoot, but it surrenders all initiative, the lead driver can now force your vehicle to stop and then he has all the time in the world for much better shots then he had chasing you.

dayman
January 14, 2014, 06:46 PM
In this particular case he was on the interstate, so turning wouldn't be an option (if there wasn't as exit), and "four wheel drifting" wouldn't have really done much.
It has been in the news a lot up here, and I've had a hard time thinking of a realistic solution. Even if he'd had a gun, it's got to be close to impossible to shoot a gun one handed and backwards while trying to call the police and maintain control of a vehicle.
I think maybe the biggest lesson is to drive passively and not respond/escalate when other people get aggressive.
I've often thought a LED "sorry about that" sign you could activate on the reader window would be useful for when you unintentionally cut people off.

ClydeFrog
January 14, 2014, 07:20 PM
I agree with parts of the last post.
Aside from safe driving & common sense/good judgement, a few improvements or modifications could help motorists too.

I was thinking that major auto makers(GM, Ford, Toyota, etc) could have new digital or computerized horn signals so motorists can honk different simple messages to each other to convey information.
"I'm backing up." "Thank you." "I'm changing lanes/passing." "My vehicle is disabled, need help." etc.
Some drivers blare their car stereos so horns or any alarm won't help. :rolleyes:
US car makers & the auto industry in general is notorious for avoiding or lobbying against new safety features. :p
Would these simple steps help drivers or motorists? Sure. Will it happen anytime soon? I highly doubt it.

I'd add too, don't think road rage events or aggressive drivers are the only problem.
The former US Surgeon General; Richard Corona(a SF medic in SE Asia & trained SWAT officer) had a subject attack him as he rushed to a traffic accident to render aid. Corona was forced to shoot the violent man who attacked him. Corona was investigated by law enforcement but later cleared. The topic did come up during his formal conformation hearings before he took the US Surgeon General post.

histed
January 14, 2014, 07:22 PM
Dayman - if our local news has this right it was the PA turnpike. IF (and that's a big IF) they are correct, your statement is even more apropos since our turnpike has very few exits and/or service plazas. The Harrisburg stations did show pictures of the vehicle in the median of a four-lane of some kind. Either way, getting to a populated area would have been difficult. And, as AK said, we do seem to have more than our share of control freaks here.
BTW, this was the SECOND incident of its kind that night. About 8 hours earlier another driver rammed and shot up another pick-up (we're told) with at least one bullet barely missing the victim's head. Fortunately, in this incident, only the vehicle was damaged

ClydeFrog
January 15, 2014, 02:57 PM
I'd add that road rage events or attacks(car-jackings/ambush) can be difficult in remote areas or periods(night-time). Bad weather or natural disasters make things worse! :eek:

A few years ago, family members of a elderly couple filed a wrongful death lawsuit against a state LE agency(the NC or SC highway patrol, if I recall).
The couple had a serious traffic accident on a state highway, crashed & the vehicle/bodies were not recovered for several weeks.

I'm not sure of the outcome of the civil action but a lesson Id learn from that is not to rely on sworn LE to rush to your aid or rescue.
I'd add that it's not a insult or criticism of a any state troopers or highway patrol either. Many of them need to cover 100s of miles or patrol huge sections by themselves.

Venom1956
January 15, 2014, 07:48 PM
Master the 4-wheel drift

This is implausible in this situation. There are to many variables to 'drift' when being pursued. A drift is a controlled skid, it bleeds off energy and over all makes you slower. To much oversteer or not enough countersteer you'll spin out. If you assailant means to ram off the road you... If you drift you're already doing half his work for him.

Also skids on public roads have their own variables crowned roads, ice, snow, water, gravel, dirt, changes in elevation, heaves in the surface and other imperfections in the road alter how your car will respond.

Those who push the limits of their abilities abruptly find them. Often with disastrous results.

I would say the victim in this situation had the same idea (no slight to the victim intended) he thought he could out drive the attacker and push it to far.

csmsss
January 15, 2014, 08:08 PM
This is implausible in this situation. There are to many variables to 'drift' when being pursued. A drift is a controlled skid, it bleeds off energy and over all makes you slower. To much oversteer or not enough countersteer you'll spin out. If you assailant means to ram off the road you... If you drift you're already doing half his work for him.

Also skids on public roads have their own variables crowned roads, ice, snow, water, gravel, dirt, changes in elevation, heaves in the surface and other imperfections in the road alter how your car will respond.

Those who push the limits of their abilities abruptly find them. Often with disastrous results.

I would say the victim in this situation had the same idea (no slight to the victim intended) he thought he could out drive the attacker and push it to far. Yup. Anyone proposing 4 wheel drifting in a modern vehicle is, well...talking out his backside. 4 wheel drifting, once upon a time in the days of live axles, certainly a FUN way to get around a track, but it hasn't been the quickest way around in many years. And simply won't work in any way, shape or form with a front drive vehicle.

Fact is, counselling a total stranger to use stunt driving techniques is on public roads is reckless and irresponsible, and endangers not just the players in the "road rage" event but everyone around them as well.

It's well to learn your capabilities and limitations as a driver through advanced driver training courses such as that taught at Skip Barber, Bondurant, etc. race driving schools. You'll learn the fundamentals of the physics applicable to vehicles at speed, how to induce and control oversteer and understeer, and how to recognize incipient skids and work your way out of them. But you can't do it over the internet. You can't even do it by watching a television show or video. You've got to do it under controlled conditions under the watch of someone who knows not just what the hell HE'S doing, but how to fix your bad habits too.

ClydeFrog
January 15, 2014, 08:14 PM
If you have the time & $$$, Id suggest going to a driver/EVOC course like Bill Scott Raceway in WV. That program teaches many US military tier one(SEALs, ACE, ISA, etc) operators & EP(exec protection) agents.
Gryphon Security; www.gryphonsecurity.com does special driver training too. They deal with corporate security & PMCs(private military contractors).

Other car makers like BMW & Range Rover offer driving classes too. It's not tactical or evading methods but they do teach how to drive in bad weather or avoiding common problems.

Tinner666
January 15, 2014, 09:42 PM
I did oversimplify a bit. I did say to practice in a parking lot. The point I was trying to make is to learn to be comfortable when the car or truck isn't 'pointed straight'.

Four wheel drifting isn't exactly a drift with FWD. That really takes practice. It's more of a controlled skid. We have a narrow two lane road I've practiced on and I can totally waste new tires in one 2- mile trip.

Evasive driving schools are where it's safest.
I have a hard time at times getting the basic idea across.

Uh, everybody does hit an empty parking lot as soon as it snows to get familiar with the handling, right? And clear all the snow off first to unload the springs and make the car feel natural, instead of squating with the springs pre-compressed and the balance way out of whack, right?

Venom1956
January 15, 2014, 10:18 PM
I think an easier way to put it would be learn how to recover if your vehicle begins to skid or your handling becomes impaired in some way.

Such as this fine example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftGaTPpRlDw

g.willikers
January 15, 2014, 11:01 PM
The driving in that video was excellent, by everyone, bad guy and cops both.
As for the venerable four wheel drift, it's still alive and well at stage rallies, stock car races, sprint cars, 'etc.
But mostly on dirt and gravel.
Back in the days of hard, skinny tires, it was the fast way around bends and fast corners, even on asphalt.
But todays wide and sticky tires and front and four wheel drive require a different technique.

BlackFeather
January 16, 2014, 12:47 AM
Most any typical carry round will go through a vehicle. The problem is deflection, and the variables there are endless. Impact bars, windshield thickness/angle, and height of vehicle. Do you shoot the tires? Can you?

I work in autobody, I've seen so many different vehicles that I couldn't tell you how to disable one, with another vehicle or firearm. There is no real offensive method to be sure of. Guns/gunfights are not meant for vehicles. A typical vehicle is meant for point A to point B, and nothing more. Some vehicles have different options available, and that can be beneficial.

If you know there is a real threat following, go above the speed limit, draw attention. If someone else calls the police, great, but have a way to prove it. Use your cell phones picture/video if available. Not all of us have the money for tires, safety features, and time to practice tactical driving techniques. Everyone should indeed test the limits of their vehicles, but only to their own abilities and safely, mostly for those areas most driven. Remember that all vehicles are subject to the same issues presented in firearms, they are not perfect and only work as well as you operate them. What you do can hurt people.

Looking at crashes, deploying air bags are the most distracting, not to mention the explosives in the seat belts. Most sensors for these are on the front impact bar, behind the bumper cover. It requires a certain amount of "G's" to set one off. Letting your rear end get hit causes issues in control, be ready to head in a safe direction. This only really works in open areas. Closed areas are always conditional. There is no clear answer either way, but if you leave your vehicle for cover, you may be hit by their vehicle...

Doublea A
January 17, 2014, 10:54 PM
If he was pursued for ten miles, wouldn't there be the possibility of going to a populated area where many people were around? How about driving to a police station?
+1
Chances are I will be armed therefore I will be calling the cops and driving to an area where I can have an advantage of engagement especially after he started ramping and shooting at me. This is when your choice of carry matters.

wayneinFL
January 20, 2014, 03:25 AM
First, don't do anything to escalate the situation. Flee if possible. Call the police.

If forced to stop, like the victim, the recourse is to fight. Then do whatever you have to do.

Another road rage story:

http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident

saleen322
January 20, 2014, 05:05 AM
I think the chase started in MD and the shooting was on I-81 in PA. While not playing blame the victim, as someone who investigated various altercations, rarely is it 100% one person and a totally innocent victim in a road rage case. I am a PA resident and guns are easy to get and carry permits only require filling out a form and paying a small fee: IE; a lot of folks carry around here. What I am saying is before you start planning your tactics here, don't assume your opponent is dumb, unarmed, and doesn't know how to shoot.

The most successful way to safely get out of a situation like this is maintain a safe following distance and don't retaliate even if you are the wronged party. It is not worth it. I much prefer to indicate I am sorry to another motorist even if I did nothing wrong rather than try to crash the car or get in a shoot out over something stupid. YMMV

ClydeFrog
January 21, 2014, 02:55 PM
You know how to shoot but are unarmed? :confused:

AK103K
January 21, 2014, 03:33 PM
Armed or not, the car is your main weapon, until its not.

dtaski
January 22, 2014, 09:43 AM
I live within 30 miles of the incident and there has been a ton of media coverage.

It sounded like the victim called 911 while in MD. The MD center took the call but the call was dropped when he entered PA. He called back and got the PA call center.

He was on the phone with 911 when the bad guy was shooting at him. MD State Police arrived on the scene before PA State Police.

The victim was spun out in the median and the bad guy stopped / came back and shot him dead.

Tactical Jackalope
January 22, 2014, 10:01 AM
Wayne, that link and story was amazing. Just read it all. Thank you so much for posting.

Yankee Traveler
January 22, 2014, 12:51 PM
Not to put the blame on the victim, but I have to wonder what he did to **** off his killer.

Maybe nothing.
Maybe unintentionally cut him off during a lane change.
Maybe he brake checked him repeatedly for driving behind him with highbeams on.
Maybe he backed over his dog at a rest area 100 miles earlier.

Maybe nothing, nothing except be in the wrong place to be singled out, and if it wasn't him it would have been someone else.

Yankee Traveler
January 22, 2014, 12:57 PM
Even a 180 in reverse is easy if you practice. Just don't touch the brake pedal!


Wait, what?
Thats how I do a reverse 180...
30-50 mph in reverse, stab the brakes and flick the wheel in the opposite direction you want to spin, as the car rotates drop the shifter into a forward gear, stomp the gas as the car straightens out.
What am I missing? Been working for since the early eighties.

Yankee Traveler
January 22, 2014, 01:03 PM
It may be better to "be tried by 12 than carried by 6", but how do you defend yourself in time to actually save yourself? If someone is trying to run you off the road and you bump them and send them out of control into a oak tree, YOU now are going to be seen as a murdering road rage idiot.

It's a conundrum.


And at what point do you decide, this guy that was in my blind spot that I accidently cut off and gave a friendly (5 fingered) wave of apology to is going to kill me if I don't send him off the road. He was only being "followed" per the media before the victim was run off the road and murdered.

Nanuk
January 23, 2014, 12:50 AM
Wait, what?
Thats how I do a reverse 180...
30-50 mph in reverse, stab the brakes and flick the wheel in the opposite direction you want to spin, as the car rotates drop the shifter into a forward gear, stomp the gas as the car straightens out.
What am I missing? Been working for since the early eighties.


For a proper J-turn you do not need to go near that fast about 20, then 1/4 turn on the wheel. If you are moving forward and want to do a 180, after you crank the wheel a jab to the brakes will shift the center of gravity and aid in your slide.

saleen322
January 23, 2014, 11:29 AM
Folks, in this case, remember this happened on an interstate highway with traffic going 70 mph give or take in the same direction. Doing a 180 there would probably be at least as dangerous as being shot at. That technique may be more appropriate under different circumstances but probably not for this one.

Nanuk
January 24, 2014, 06:53 PM
Folks, in this case, remember this happened on an interstate highway with traffic going 70 mph give or take in the same direction. Doing a 180 there would probably be at least as dangerous as being shot at. That technique may be more appropriate under different circumstances but probably not for this one.

Never said it was not dangerous or that it was appropriate in the situation. Just like in shooting it pays to be the master of your car. Just as there are shooting schools there are driving schools.

There is always more to the story, or as Paul Harvey said "The rest of the Story".

Tinner666
January 25, 2014, 05:25 PM
Yep, lots of practice. I made my wife nervous for the first time yesterday practicing because I was dialing a phone number while 'waiting' for the car to line up where I wanted it before straighening out.
Yankee Traveler, it's safer not to touch the brake when doing it in reverse. Try it by pushing a grocery cart backwards and letting go.

Crankgrinder
January 28, 2014, 01:40 PM
Ive been following this thread a while now. I cannot quarterback this scenario, there are too many things about it I don't know. I can however, play it out as it applies to me. Long story short my finances do not allow for me to drive a new vehicle at this time. I drive a 00 Honda civic to get to work and back. Lots of people here in Texas love to drive F250s and as if those aren't already big enough they then jack them up in the air about 12 inches and mount oversized tires. Then they put heavy duty grill guards that stick out a foot or more off of the front end. In these vehicles they barrel down the roads at 80 sometimes 100+. There has been much talk about maneuvering and j turns and all of this, but my car cannot outrun an F250 or its equivalent, and at highway speeds outmaneuvering one is out of the question so Ill put it this way. I care not what the other person is driving. The laws that apply to me apply to them also and the FIRST (#1) time that my vehicle is struck in such a way as to cause me to believe it was done with intent to destroy it and/or the person/people inside it I will not wait for them to do it again, and I will not wait for police either.

ATW525
January 28, 2014, 07:04 PM
There is an episode of First Person Defender (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIqX2d_GZY4) that deals with a road rage scenario. They talk about how to exit the vehicle quickly without getting tangled up on the seat belt. It could be a useful skill to have if you need to (or are forced to) stop.

Mainah
January 28, 2014, 07:30 PM
Again, I've followed this story because I'm from PA (where I'm from), and the victim is from a local town where I now live in Maine (ME). Just to recap: the victim was driving home to ME from Florida. He had to drive through either one of two states (NJ, or NY) that would have made the legal carry of a gun that he could reach very tough.

And he was on an unfamiliar highway in a rural area in the middle of the night, both sides of the road were covered in snowbanks. After whatever began his encounter with the shooter he tried to maintain contact with 911 while driving in all of these conditions.

All that having been said; the best advice I've seen on this thread is to avoid being in that situation, at that time of night. I've made the drive from ME to PA many times. On a few occasions I've pushed it and driven late into the night, I won't do that again.

Rifleman 173
January 29, 2014, 10:37 AM
No matter what happens, you are ultimately responsible for your own protection and safety. There's no other way to say it or define it. Any more it's almost to the point that a person shouldn't travel without carrying a gun of some sort on their person or carrying a medium caliber rifle or decent shotgun in their car. Try to keep it as legal as possible but survival is always your main concern. A rifle with a tactical scope gives a defender a better survival chance over a guy with a pistol almost every time. A guy with a pistol is almost always in a better position than the guy who only has a knife in most cases. But, then again, you need to train with your firearms to insure competency with them too. So the keys are: preparation, training and lots of practice to iron out the bugs in your defensive plan. Once you've gotten everything straight you can hope that you never have to use your defensive plan but you can rest easy that you have one and, like insurance, it's there whether you need it or not.