First shots through and thoughts on my new CZ75 SP-01.

[Pond, James Pond]

A number of members have watched my slow journey toward choosing a new gun with which to replace my Glock 19, taking its place as an IPSC race gun and also treat myself to a birthday present.

My choice was finally a standard CZ75 SP-01. For those not familiar with it, it is an all-steel CZ 75 but with a longer frame, holding the slide from one end to the other. It comes with tritium sights, the standard CZ trigger, an ambi-safety and 2 18rd mags. I have since bought 2 more 16 rd mags.

This is a short overview of my first experience with this gun which I have owned now for 3 weeks but not yet had a chance to shoot.

My shoot involved putting 215rds through it. These were predominantly 123gr Fiocchi FMJs, with one mag of Fiocchi 158gr subsonics.

Overall, it is comfier than my Glock, and more accurate. It is fast to get back on target and has reduced muzzle-flip, by my reckoning.

So far so good. My biggest issue so far is that.whilst it is more accurate, producing some much tighter groups, the POA and POI are quite different.

Now, I know what I am about to type will evoke some gasps of disbelief and perhaps even some tears, but it must be said, so be strong...

I think the issue with the aim may be down to my own shooting technique rather than the gun... There. I said it.

I found that as I aimed at a particular point, the first shot would land down and left of POA. Then, as I shot more from the mag, the shots seem to get progessively lower and more to the left , making a top right to bottom left group. This was quite noticeable at 7yds, but less so at 5yds. It also decreased the more rounds I shot.

I should say my hands were a bit shaky today. Don't know why.

When I dry fire, I haven't seen much movement in the front sight, so I was a bit disappointed. By comparison, my G19 gave me groups that were more centred on target, but not as tight.

If I tried very hard I could get some tight groups.

I have attached 3 pictures. These show my first 6 mags on one target page. There I have marked my POA with a green cross and the group is circled in green too. There are also some groups on mini comstock targets from my 7th mag and finally mags 8-12 on a fresh target. I will post other picture in a fresh post.

All shots were at 5yds, except for the first 6 mags at 7yds.

I will write another thread to cover any pointers on my shooting technique that might have caused this migrating POI issue.

In the meantime, here are my thoughts after the first outing. In my fantasy world, this gun was going to transform my shooting. That was a bit naive and so I was a bit crest-fallen with the initial groups. Having said that I have to be realistic seeing as this is a brand new gun, as well as a new to me design.

The truth is that I never managed to produce "ragged hole" type groups with the Glock and yet I did so today with the CZ. The only let down was that they were not where I was aiming!! :rolleyes: Then again there were times where the bullet went exactly where I was aiming.

So I have a gun that shoots consistently at the same spot, even if it was not my intended POI, so the gun is accurate in that sense. I was also able to hit POA too, so I am capable of accuracy too.
These two facts side by side tell me the problem is in my shooting rather than the gun's design/abilities. I can feel that follow up shots could be much faster for me too, once I'm more used to it as the weighty muzzle does tame the flip. The grip is very comfortable and the trigger is better than what I had.

All in all a pleasant experience, even if it has left me with a painfully clear idea of how much my technique needs work!!

[Pond, James Pond]

Here are the pictures of one mag of 158gr subsonics which were milder than the 123grs in terms of muzzle flip. There is also a picture of the last 5 shots of the day that allowed me to end on a high note and reassured me that I can be accurate even if not consistent!!

[dgludwig]

The intrinsic accuracy of most firearms is determined by the size of the group. Where the group lands on the target is largely dependent on the sights, the shooter, the wind or the load (in terms of different bullet weights and/or "accelerant") or a combination(s) thereof. From your description of the shooting experience you had on one given day, I tend to agree with your conclusion: "I think the issue with the aim may be down to my own shooting technique rather than the gun..."

I think you need a few more range trips to determine what's really going on. The pistol's performance, for the most part, will be static. Your performance might include having bad days and good days and a few shooting sessions are needed, imo, to get a complete assessment as to your shooting technique.

In any event, I'm certain that you will come to love and appreciate your new CZ 75 SP-01 pistol. Happy Birthday!

[chris in va]

So far so good. My biggest issue so far is that.whilst it is more accurate, producing some much tighter groups, the POA and POI are quite different.

Could be a few things. You're used to the Glock grip angle and trigger release. It'll take time to become one with your SP.

To rule out a sight issue try shooting it off bags. Also keep in mind different grain weights will change your POI.

[marine6680]

Try 115gr... my CZ shoots POA with them. It also really likes the Blazer brass ammo... My 40s&w does as well. Doubt you can get it out there though.

As was suggested, try shooting off of bags or a rest. This will allow you to take out the variable of natural movements when shooting offhand.

This will also allow you to focus on sights and smooth trigger pull, which will tell you if the sights need adjusted or what type of hold you need.

I find my CZ uses a POA=POI hold with 115gr as I said, but it shoots pretty much the same with 124gr as well. (the middle sight picture in the pic below)

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/sightimages.jpg

Some guns shoot Six-oclock. (first in above pic)

I am sure you know the different sight pictures though.


Since you don't have adjustable sights, (other than windage by drifting the rear) you can not do much to change the sight picture. A shorter front sight will raise the POI... So you could get a new front sight that is shorter, or file a small amount off the top of the sight. A little at a time with frequent test shots off a bag/rest. You would need to refinish the sight after though.

[Pond, James Pond]

Thanks for the suggestions, as always. In the 3-sight picture diagram I have so far always gone for the first . As yet, I have not tried any of the others.

Shooting of bags is also another good idea. When I feel a bit put out by the results I do cast my mind back to those 5 last shots of the day. They almost all went through the same hole, so clearly there is a heap of potential there!!

[marine6680]

Familiarity will improve your groups a good amount.

Shooting off the bags will just help you find the proper sight picture and also get a feel for the trigger with less distractions.

[aarondhgraham]

Overall, it is comfier than my Glock, and more accurate.

We told ya so,,, :D

Aarond

.

[loose_holster_dan]

very few guns use sight image 1 unless adjusted as so by their owners.
some use number 2, but most modern guns come with number 3 from the factory.

[marine6680]

I have never seen sight picture 3 in any gun I have shot... it covers too much for my liking.

Though, I can see the benefit when shooting in the dark with night sights.

[loose_holster_dan]

number 3 is a combat sight image. for instance, all sig sauer handguns manufactured in the last decade have that sight image.

[dgludwig]

all sig sauer handguns manufactured in the last decade have that sight image.

I'm not sure what is meant by this claim in that I don't understand how a SIG pistol sight is any different from any other similar pistol. It seems to me that any given "sight image" is wholly dependent on where and how the shooter decides to align the sights, irrespective of the brand, or even type, of firearm. What am I missing here (no pun intended)?

[DaleA]

No lesser a personage than the late Colonel Jeff Cooper approved of the CZ75 so you've got that going for you too!

[marine6680]

Wig...

When shooting a target, the goal is to hit a certain area. In the example above, that would be dead center where the lines cross.

Sight pictures can be different for various guns and even between two people on the same one. (though not as much on a handgun due to the nature of how it's held in front of the eye compared to a rifle, in a rifle people can be very different in how they rest their cheek on the stock)

In the above example you have three different guns and the respective way you must hold and align the sights to the target to hit the above mentioned area of dead center.

In the first picture you must hold the sights low (6 o'clock) at just the bottom edge of the bullseye. The picture is greatly exaggerated though. In a real pistol if you was to use a shooting vise, you would find that the point of impact would be just above the properly aligned sights.

In the second example to hit the center, you align the sights so that the top of the front post is even with center. the rounds hit even/centered on the front sight post.

In the third example to hit the center of the target, you place the dot over the center. Using a vise, you would not be able to see the point of impact because it would be behind the dot on the front post.

Pistols are designed with one of those three sight pictures in mind. Adjustable sights can be made to shoot to the user's preference.

Did that answer your question or did I miss understand it?

[Walt Sherrill]

Technique could be an issue, as you suspect.

This is from the BULLSEYE PISTOL website. It was originally developed for one-handed shots, but some of the errors described can occur when you use both hands, too. This is for right-handed shooters; you'd just flip things left to right if you're left-handed. The link below shows the chart again, and gives some additional explanation. The site, and links, is a WEALTH of information.

Don't do ANYTHING to the sights until you set down (literally) and shoot the gun from a rest. If you can put your hands on a bag of something like rice, and slowly squeeze off each shot, you'll learn quickly whether the problem is the sights or your trigger/hand techniques.

In addition to filing on the sights, you might contact CZ and tell them the measurements of your rear sight. Then tell them how far off you are at a specified distance. They can send you a sight that better fits where things are going.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/wheel.gif

[propforce]

Shouldn't the sight picture discussion include how far you are shooting? I don't know how pistols are zeroed in the factory but let's say they zeroed in at 25 yds while you are shooting at 7 yds then you will inevitably shoot low?

[dgludwig]

Shouldn't the sight picture discussion include how far you are shooting?

Absolutely. Pistols with fixed sights necessarily have to have the sight oriented one way or the other ("zeroed") from the factory, in terms of windage and elevation. Relative to what range (distance) you're shooting at, if it's much different than the factory zero, the shooter will have to adjust his hold (sight picture) concerning elevation. Bullets much different in weight from those used to zero a pistol at the factory can also require a change in the shooter's sight picture to accomodate the difference in trajectory as it applies to poa vs poi.
Of course, adjustable sights also come with a factory zero but they can be changed with a screw driver to conform to changes in distances and/or bullet weights.

[marine6680]

Different pistols with different uses will be set to shoot at ranges typical of the use. Target guns 25yds, combat style, somewhere less.

[loose_holster_dan]

in addition to using the diagram walt posted, attaching a cheap laser can be a useful tool to diagnose your problem. you can even do this dry firing with a friend. pick a spot on the wall and aim your pistol (and laser) at it. pull the trigger as you usually would. your friend will be able to tell you if the laser moved when you pulled the trigger. using the direction and magnitude of the movement, you can diagnose your problem.

[marine6680]

Keep us informed on how you progress and what things you find.

[Pond, James Pond]

Last night I put a snap cap in, and attached a flat laser pointer to my rail using a rubber band.

Certainly in SA, there was either no or next-to-no movement in the red-dot when my trigger broke. In DA it depended on where I put the trigger on my finger before starting to squeeze.

That would mean that my SA shots should be where I aim, or in the same spot, if I can aim correctly. I do know that my hand was not as steady as I'd have liked on the day of my practice. Possibly due to the anticipation of shooting the new gun and "wanting" the results to be excellent....
I can also say that, as a whole, my fine motor control when aiming at the same spot are not always consistent, I do have the tendency to "jerk" the gun on some occasions.

It annoys the heck out of me as I know I shouldn't do it: like my hand telling me to get stuffed

[Walt Sherrill]

That would mean that my SA shots should be where I aim, or in the same spot, if I can aim correctly. I do know that my hand was not as steady as I'd have liked on the day of my practice. Possibly due to the anticipation of shooting the new gun and "wanting" the results to be excellent....

Or, surprisingly, due to your intake of CAFFEINE earlier in the day.

The USAMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) manual addresses caffeine intake -- it's a no-no if you're going to shoot competitively. I've noticed, when going to the range, I CAN TELL if I'd had a couple of soft drinks prior to shooting.

Try going caffeine free next time, and see if there's a difference.

[loose_holster_dan]

Or, surprisingly, due to your intake of CAFFEINE earlier in the day.

The USAMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) manual addresses caffeine intake -- it's a no-no if you're going to shoot competitively. I've noticed, when going to the range, I CAN TELL if I'd had a couple of soft drinks prior to shooting.

Try going caffeine free next time, and see if there's a difference.

ABSOLUTELY!

i've noticed that if i have an afternoon cup of coffee and then go to the range after work, i can't hit anything.

[Pond, James Pond]

Try going caffeine free next time

:eek:
Heresy!

HERESY!!

[Pond, James Pond]

Well, today I came 4th in our club's little .22 tournament. Staggering really considering I spent half the day clearing jams on the Remington AR-15 .22LR, and completely forgot one target on one of the rounds.
Anyway, after that, I went into the "bunker" to fire off a few centre-fire rounds.

25 .44Mags, 50 9mm and 2 cylinders of .38spl, just to see how my form was. As suggested early I started off all of them, kneeling at a bench and using it as a rest/support.

This time the CZ was spot on hitting the point of aim and then leaving a ragged hole in its place, as with the Redhawk and even the 2" snub!!

So, all in all I was very happy and it shows that the previous problems had been shooter related.

[Willie D]

FWIW, shooting 115gr ammo I need to use the #3 sight picture with my CZ-75B (at least at <50foot ranges).

[uradaisyifudo]

First, I must agree with Mr. Pond on the caffeine free heresy. As far as sight picture, I have had good luck with my SP-06 by focusing more on the front sight than the rear, providing I place the front sight on target, and my form/grip is good, POA and POI are consistent.

[chris in va]

It'll take time getting used to the natural CZ grip angle, coming from a Glock. I've had CZ's for a decade and my purchase of a G21 was a major mistake. The gun was fine but it didn't point naturally and most of my shots were over the target unless I forced the front sight down.

[Walt Sherrill]

re: caffeine heresy. It isn't really heresy -- just an uncomfortable truth, at least for SOME people.

A lot of folks LOVE their caffeine. For those who are caffeine-sensitive -- and more are probably sensitive than realize it -- the shooter has a choice: feel better or shoot better.

If you check the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit's training manual -- it's on the net in a number of places -- you'll see that avoiding caffeine is one practice that is given great emphasis: no caffeine when or before you shoot.

I'd have range sessions where I shot so poorly I was puzzled and embarrassed -- until I started to notice a cause/effect relationship that varied with what I had been drinking in the hours prior to going to the range.

[RC20]

One of the things I would suggest in trying out any new semi auto (or DA revolver) is to shoot it off a rest and (assuming you made the right decision) SA mode.

That takes out most (not all) of the errors and gets you a good idea of what you and the gun can do.

I won't do that with a clamp/rest as I am not interesting in taking everything out of the picture, how you hold the gun and react to it is equally important as you will not be shooting from a clamp rest in any other situation.

Don;'t get me wrong, clamp rests are great for finding out what the inherent accuracy is (but you can get that anywhere).

Typically the gun is far more capable than the shooter.

Also, 15 yds is a better test than 7. 5 or 7 is a drill situation for SD, you need to be out at 15 to see what the spread really is. It does depend on your psychology. I prefer to be challenged as I know the gun can shoot better than I can so I put it out longer (I use 7 a lot for the gun as thats the longest sight distance in the house).

Build confidence at short range as a start if you like. I learned to shoot pistols at 25 yds as that was de-facto comparison for a revolver and the 1911s. I don't find I can do that well with a semi auto and its shorter barrel (my revolvers were all 6 inch or longer).