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View Full Version : Which combat pistols does everyone agree have no issues?


RX-79G
November 2, 2013, 01:40 AM
It often seems like there is a lot of argument about whether certain brands or models are problem guns or not. But some guns seem to almost never get that sort of criticism. All brands are susceptible to an occasional failure or lemon, but which ones have you never really heard of a bad quality trend?

To be clear, I'm just talking about quality - gun works as designed and doesn't tend to break, jam or shed parts while firing. Not whether you like the gun, features, etc.

Off the top of my head, with no particular bias:
The original stamped slide Sigs. P210.
Metal framed Ruger P series.
Wilson, Les Baer.
3 and 4 digit S&W metal framed autos.
Beretta/Stoeger Cougar.
FN.
HK.
9mm and 10mm Glocks.
CZs.
Arcus HPs.


I hope this doesn't devolve into a debate about why Taurus, Kimber or Colt are being unfairly maligned. I just thought it would be fun to build a list of universal winners in the quality department. Please nominate to the list or mention your reason you think a model shouldn't make it. (EG; Beretta 92 locking block failures, M&P trigger failures, kaBooms, etc.)

Just keep in mind that some things, like Glock .40 kBs are hotly contested, but since 9mms Glocks aren't, that might qualify them for the list. We're looking for the guns no one even argues about there being a problem or not.

It is possible that there will be nothing left on this list when we're through, but I've honestly never heard anyone raise an issue with a Cougar, for instance.

Fair 'nuff? Let's hear about 'em!

sigarms228
November 2, 2013, 02:23 AM
There will not be anything that everyone agrees with. This could turn into a giant ******* contest.

However you gave your opinion based on what you are "hearing". Others will do the same or maybe even their personal experiences. Most likely it will turn into another popularity contest as posts like this typically do - I feel these should be on the list because I own them, which is only natural.

I have read about or heard about problems with pretty much everything you have listed. I would not even kow where to start so I won't.

Good luck.

RX-79G
November 2, 2013, 02:39 AM
It really doesn't have to be a big debate. If no one can post even a couple internet threads about a particular problem, then there isn't a trend.


My little list was just off the top of my head - I'm sure much of it will be shot down. But I do think some models will make it through with so little to no posted evidence of QC problems. And even if you have to read the whole thread to see which guns those are, it will still be very useful information.

So please do shoot down the anything and everything! Just try to post a few links if the problems aren't widely known.

rock185
November 2, 2013, 03:00 AM
RX, I do believe someone, somewhere, will have had a problem with any and all manufacturer's guns. Guns that I have personally owned during the last ~40 years that have had one or more problems that were significant enough for me, a gunsmith, or the manufacturer to address, have been S&W, Colt, Ruger, Springfield, CZ, Wilson, Les Baer, Rock River, and yes, even a SIG P210. i suspect issues with the P210 would be very rare, but of the four I owned, one did have to actually go back for replacement of the en bloc trigger mechanism...ymmv

RX-79G
November 2, 2013, 03:13 AM
Hey Rock,

I agree completely. The key to this is the word trend. Sig P210s do not have a trigger block failure trend that would be easy to demonstrate by posting a few threads with people complaining about them.

Over the years I've sent a few pistols in for warranty stuff, but I was unable in all cases to find evidence on the net of a "problem" with any of them.

I'd contrast that with the "front sight falling off problem" or the "locking block problem" that some models seem to have a reputation for.

In your case, I'd encourage you to remember what went wrong with those guns, do a quick google and post anything you find that sounds like it happened more than twice.

Think of this as a statistical exercise attempting to disprove any and all pistols of being largely problem free.

Venom1956
November 2, 2013, 03:32 AM
meh with enough time anyone can make the 'facts' work in their favor. I'm sure with enough digging you could find plenty of issues with all those guns.

Also when a gun works perfectly fine day in and day out, often times you'll never hear one word of praise for it.

But if it stovepipes once on a sunny day at the range after 2,000 rounds of ammo... CAN I TRUST MY LIFE TO THIS GUN?!

Heaven forbid something actually breaks on it. I've seen so many perfectly good firearms traded in after a common part finally gave way. Just can't trust it. Or some nonsense.

Everything man made is imperfect and prone to breakage, I feel its not so much the gun itself that defines a 'good' gun but perhaps the company behind it. Who make sure their customer is taken care of. Uses a bit more costly materials on important parts, and if they totally make a lemon or drop the ball aren't afraid of admitting it and making it up to you. Do companies need to do these things? No. But if feel that's what separates the goods from the greats.

JimmyR
November 2, 2013, 04:00 AM
I have heard James Yeager suggest that CZ 75s are prone to "break," but never found any other reports of major failues.

yes, I watch Yeager videos, don't judge me. :p

RX-79G
November 2, 2013, 04:39 AM
Venom,

Don't really understand your post. This isn't trying to prove something is perfect - it is more like trying to prove a negative. And if everyone fails to prove that negative, that's interesting.

If the sum of all failure reports on Ruger P89s doesn't point to any particular common problem, that shows that the P89 doesn't have any particular problems. That doesn't mean the gun is perfect, just that there isn't any one thing that's consistently fails to work.

I'm surprised everyone hates this idea. It could be interesting, and there really isn't anything contentious about failing to find fault with something. It won't transform a boring, clunky gun into something it isn't.

dakiwi13
November 2, 2013, 05:50 AM
Agree with you on p series ruger, they have been great for me I trust my life to my fnx every single day

ritepath
November 2, 2013, 07:46 AM
You have already made the mistake of listing other brands besides glocks....that'll draw out all the "there's only One" fans to list what's wrong with each of your other picks.

If someone hasn't already chimed in the first they'll knock off is the P's series, with some sob story about how the trigger fell off while they were just walking along.

Then the S&W haters will show up crying that they'd never buy Smith Semi's because they put internal locks in Revolvers.

HK's will last the longest because fewer people invest in great quality...The custom 1911's are going down Third. Sig may out last HK, it just depends on what types migrate to this thead.

So fourth and so on for about 153 posts...All brands are junk except those I choose to own. See how simple was that. :p

Strafer Gott
November 2, 2013, 07:57 AM
"9 and 10mm Glocks"is getting to be a cliche, a cut deeper the model 21 in .45acp is an awesome combat pistol, too. Sigs are awesome if you shoot double action well. H&K's shootability is variable and operator sensitive. A 1911 is a rose by any other name, still one of my favorites. Browning Hi Power ought to be somewhere in there. The Beretta 92 I have hasn't given me any grief. I expect any gun with 10K rounds and all abused to have issues, but mine haven't and don't.

thedudeabides
November 2, 2013, 08:01 AM
I don't like the term "combat pistol," it's just a BS marketing term to sell black guns with night sights, tacticool rails, extended mags and grabby grips at a premium to mall ninjas.

RBid
November 2, 2013, 08:30 AM
I don't like the term "combat pistol," it's just a BS marketing term to sell black guns with night sights, tacticool rails, extended mags and grabby grips at a premium to mall ninjas.

Exactly! There's no reason you can't go into combat with a Taurus PT-22, a Phoenix HP25A, or a Desert Eagle in your drop leg holster! All pistols are made for combat!


/crickets

Tom68
November 2, 2013, 09:22 AM
Okay. I read here much more than I post, and in all my reading I can't remember any significant complaints about FN pistols. I've had my FNP-40 since 2008 and have shot at least a few thousand rounds through it and cannot recall even one malfunction regardless of what I fed it, both my reloads as well as factory. For me, at least, it's established a reliable reputation, and I don't recall reading of others who report problems with theirs. So there's my $.02.

Tom

Tom68
November 2, 2013, 09:23 AM
Oh, and let me caveat my last post by stating that there's still a whole lot of reputable quality pistols that I've yet to try :-)

seeker_two
November 2, 2013, 09:39 AM
No such creature, I think.....

....maybe the Colt Single-Action Army....not a lot of negative posts about it by soldiers back when it was in service....

:D

ricko
November 2, 2013, 10:31 AM
It's not a 'combat pistol', and I've never owned one, but one model that has impressed me by the absence of negative criticism for functionality is the 9mm Hi-Point.

WESHOOT2
November 2, 2013, 10:40 AM
CZ75 and clones
Glock
Ruger P-series
S&W M&P
S&W 39XX-series
1911

And the pinnacle, the S&W 4" M10 revolver.

dstryr
November 2, 2013, 10:47 AM
Early on, a few FNP40s had an issue with the trigger housing cracking in front of the hammer. There was a slight change made which either added or left more material in the problem area and I have not heard of revised pistols having troubles. Actually, I generally read very good reviews.
I have 2 FNP40s, close to 3000 rounds through one, 300-500 through the other and both have been flawless except for failure to feed on American Eagle 165grain FMJ. Maybe 10 FTF between the two guns in 1000 rounds. No issues with any other ammo.

Venom1956
November 2, 2013, 10:48 AM
Don't really understand your post.

No worries. It was mainly my feelings on the matter. No one understands me! ;)

Simply put, I would say most modern service pistols are all perfectly capable of meeting or exceeding the goals of its intended purpose. As long as it is a quality manufacturer.

But there will always be issues with any model of gun, if you look long enough or hard enough I'm sure you'll find them.

The amount of guns in circulation and how much they are used also would effect how many issues they would have. More guns and more usage = more chance of issue.

Take glocks solid tough as nails, rugged and reliable. There is a HUGE amount of glocks in circulation and most of them fit that description. But there are some that just sneak by QC and flat out suck. It will eventually, and when it does the whole internet will hear about it. That to your criteria would be a mark against it. You'd have to average the issues to the total production to get the % failure rate of that gun model.

M712 Schnellfeuer is a pistol I hardly hear any owners complain about. So clearly that would make it superior to just about every modern pistol since most of them have had a recall of some sort lately. Or is it because there are so few in comparison to glocks that are subjected to the daily hazards of carry and use that a glock might be?

I guess I'm saying there are so many proven service pistols out there nowadays that have seen combat done the trials had their teething problems that I would be comfortable with any of them especially after some quality range time with it to familiarize and make sure its working correctly.

Your title says
everyone agree
This will never happen. For every yes there will be a no.

TunnelRat
November 2, 2013, 10:49 AM
So you say it doesn't matter if people have some gripes, as long as people can't point to a trend. But you go on to list the worst source for looking for trends: internet forums lol :p. People are far more likely to go online to complain about a gun than to sing its praises. I can almost guarantee you that if someone has had a problem with a gun, someone else has had that particular problem. Heck I have had obscure, head-scratching issues with cars that I didn't think were possible and still found people online that have had the same thing. Then we get into what you consider to be a trend. 3 threads, 10 threads, 100 threads? It starts getting very subjective.

And quite frankly no pistols are perfect. Let's take HKs for example as they cost large sums of money, which many would think equates to reliability. Now almost all of mine have been 100% out of box, and I've had about a dozen of them. But I read online about broker trigger returns springs and I did have one P30 with a overly stiff recoil spring that spit brass rearward, which some might argue is an "issue". Therefore my suggestion seems out, even out of the gate. I can't think of a single brand of pistol where I have not heard of any issues.

I don't think folks here are trying to trash your idea, they're just noting that getting any internet community to sign off on something as a whole is damn near impossible.

44 AMP
November 2, 2013, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
I don't like the term "combat pistol," it's just a BS marketing term to sell black guns with night sights, tacticool rails, extended mags and grabby grips at a premium to mall ninjas.


Like it or not, the term "combat pistol" has been around longer than most of us, and isn't going to go away. Some classic handguns even have the word "Combat" as part of their name. Combat handguns existed before there were rails, extended mags, grabby grips, OR mall ninjas.

Personally, I mostly use the term "duty" or "service" class for guns intended for uniform holster wear by police & military.


Exactly! There's no reason you can't go into combat with a Taurus PT-22, a Phoenix HP25A, or a Desert Eagle in your drop leg holster! All pistols are made for combat!


"All pistols are made for combat!" ?? Really? Its tough to tell, but I really hope this is sarcasm. Because if it isn't, you just lost a LOT of creditability.:rolleyes:

rs97
November 2, 2013, 11:18 AM
Which combat pistols does everyone agree have no issues?

These come to mind:
Colt 1911
BHP
Tokarev
Makarov
Walther P-38

Seaman
November 2, 2013, 11:35 AM
The two proven best combat pistols out there would be the Colt 1911A1 and the Makarov PM. Period.

ClydeFrog
November 2, 2013, 11:42 AM
Some guns & brands do work better than others.
I've had issues with many "combat pistols" in the past.
I had a rental gun range Glock 21 .45acp jam on me. But I think it was due to poor cleaning/service & the reloaded .45acp ammunition.
I had a S&W 3913 9mm misfire too. :mad:
My own 96D .40S&W had a range problem but it was a 1 in 10,000 chance of a tiny metal sliver being stuck in the rear of the extractor.
Even the range officer couldn't explain how it happened.
As noted, the Browning P-35/Hi Power in 9x19mm or .40 is a great sidearm or combat pistol. It, like the 1911 series was in use all over the world for decades.

I never shot or used a CZ75 9mm but they are highly rated too.
Gun owners & armed professionals rarely complain about Kahr pistols either.

Wyosmith
November 2, 2013, 12:13 PM
Let us not drink the cool aid?
Catch phrases are all about marketing.
"Combat Pistol"?
What exactly is that?
And more importantly, what is not a combat pistol?

I used an issue Colt 1911A1 in the Marine Corps and also later working for DOD.
I have also used a S&W M58.

Once I found myself in a sticky spot and all I had was a S&W K-22, which I never fired, but was 100% ready to. The situation worked out when police officers got there before I had to shoot, but the point is still solid.

Any pistol used in a fight for your life is a combat pistol. Some have advantages over others, but "Combat Pistol" is in the same league as "Assault Rifle", "Saturday night Special" and "Hate Crime"
There are phrases to elicit a mental response from the reader of listener, but the phrase itself is a bit silly.
Combat is always going to revolve around the fighter more than what he fights with. 98% of the fight is about the man, and 2% about his tools.

If you have a good tool, and you can use it when it counts to a high degree of proficiency, you are going to hold an advantage in most fights.

Let the advertisers and magazine writers do their job, but don’t let them sway you into thinking you can’t fight if something “better’ comes out for sale.

Any RELIABLE handgun is a good tool to fight with. More power is better than less, and more accuracy is better than less. More controllability is better than less.
Choose one that you like the feel of, that works well, and learn to use it WELL. Make it a point to become a VERY good marksman, a VERY competent gun handler, and someone that understands movement and communication when you are under fire.
Then you have a good “combat pistol”

More importantly, you can become a good fighter.

Guns don't kill, people do. Sometimes people kill when they should and not only when it's a crime. It's NOT the guns fault or responsibility in either case.

ritepath
November 2, 2013, 12:47 PM
Maybe someone can come up with a dumb spread sheet like the AR guys pass around.

Shouldn't the only pistols listed be used by Armed forces around the world, if we're talking combat approved for military service?

Or if we're going with just the true pistols carried by American military shouldn't those be the only one's we evaluate in this thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individual_weapons_of_the_U.S._Armed_Forces#In_active_service_2

thedudeabides
November 2, 2013, 01:00 PM
Personally, I mostly use the term "duty" or "service" class for guns intended for uniform holster wear by police & military.


Right, and that leads to two different classes of handguns.

Police weapons tend to be striker fired, simple, smaller, hicaps like Glocks and the modern plastic M&Ps and military guns are larger hammer fired deals like the mk23, M9, M45... which then gets us back to the main pistol families of striker vs. hammer and plastic vs. metal.

And honestly all manufacturers make gun families that are derived or directly service related--so the "ELITE TACTICAL SUPER BLACK OPS" P226 is no different than its more ordinary base model brethren in terms of form factor or internals--it's the same MIM parts, springs, mags and firing pins.

I have a Colt CCO, which is labeled as a "Law Officer's" model, even if I haven't seen too many cops carrying small 1911s these days. Is it a Combat Pistol, a carry pistol, or a police service pistol. It isn't butch like my HK45, but will outshoot it on any day and is every bit as reliable.

RX-79G
November 2, 2013, 01:42 PM
I used the word "combat" simply to leave mouseguns, Desert Eagles and target pistols out of a thread that could prove to be huge.

This, like most of the objections posted don't really have anything to do with the question of coming up with guns that don't have a problem reputation.

Some of the nominations so far:
The 96D has the same locking block problems as the 92.
Early G21s had feeding problems.
Early Kahr polymer framed guns had a bunch of issues.
Walther P-38s had decocker related firing pin problems.
S&W M&P had a bunch of broken triggers.
Tanfoglio CZ clones are said to break slide lock pins.


Thanks to those who understood the OP!

Hurryin' Hoosier
November 2, 2013, 01:57 PM
Anything man-made is subject to problems.

RX-79G
November 2, 2013, 02:10 PM
Anything man-made is subject to problems.
Of course. But that isn't the question.

Which pistols are repeatedly subject to the same problem?


All pistols will have problems now and then, which much of the time will be the fault of external factors, like ammo and maintenance.

Problem pistols are those that have the same problem, regardless of who owns them and how they are being shot. If a bunch of SR9s are throwing their front sites off, that's a trend.

I don't know how much more plainly this can be explained.

Caruser4
November 2, 2013, 02:32 PM
I don't know if this is a common problem but I have an FNH FNX-9 that had the safety lever go bad.

The gun has an ambidextrous safety but the design is ...not great. The safety lever used by right handers is quite solid and very well-secured to the axis point (where the actual safety mechanism is) but the lever for left handers is just holding onto the axis point (safety mechanism) by a small metal tension clip.

The lever failed when the clip lost tension and allowed the lever to spin freely without disengaging the safety. If the gun was being used in a defensive manner, it could've been a very unfortunate event. That was (thankfully) not the case and I got by using the other safety lever.

I called up FNH and they mailed out the clip-on lever free of charge. I popped it on and that was it. I do not carry this gun as a CCW for obvious reasons but I never got rid of it because I still like the gun very much. This all happened within two years of owning the gun and using it lightly.

campbed
November 2, 2013, 03:39 PM
I think the term "combat pistol" is just fine and dandy if you want to use it.

My definition is simple enough: any pistol issued to soldiers by their country.
Combat = Military. Simple to me.

Got a different definition? God bless.

To answer your question: My SIG MK25 has gone bang 2750 times in a row without a single issue. The P226 platform has a rock solid rep from both Mil and LE users.

Esox
November 2, 2013, 04:03 PM
Beretta M9
Sig P226
Walther P38
Browning Hi-Power

All the above in any order.

gotthegoods
November 2, 2013, 04:05 PM
Having a CZ and Kahr, they'd be way up my list.

You did say COMBAT pistols, so that opens up the list to add com-bloc service pistols to the discussion.

I'll vote for the VZ.52 made by CZ

Pond, James Pond
November 2, 2013, 04:31 PM
I don't like the term "combat pistol," it's just a BS marketing term to sell black guns with night sights, tacticool rails, extended mags and grabby grips at a premium to mall ninjas.

Oh crap.... my new CZ 75 SP-01 has all of those.....

As far as this thread is concerned, I will take "combat pistol' to mean a pistol either designed specifically for government/military contracts or were subsequently adopted for one regardless of the reason for its design...

That usually means that they will have passed stringent tests but have been made to a budget. That excludes custom 1911s, then. It also means that there are lots more in circulation. It follows that this will mean a greater incidence of problems too. It's just probability.

As 44AMP stated: people are more likely to punish than praise. I believe in marketing the stat they tout is a ratio of 9:5 when comparing who will pass on details of a negative consumer experience to those who will extoll the details of a positive experience.

This results in accounts of failures being artificially inflated as a proportion of the whole.

For me if people have bought a pistol, shot it a fair amount and kept it, or bought more from the same maker, that is as good an indicator as any: better than there being a lack of threads on one subject or another.

Plenty of people seem to keep and perhaps buy another Glock/CZ/HK/Sig etc...

RBid
November 2, 2013, 05:08 PM
"All pistols are made for combat!" ?? Really? Its tough to tell, but I really hope this is sarcasm. Because if it isn't, you just lost a LOT of creditability.

I choose to take this as a layered compliment. First, it speaks to my apparent mastery of the deadpan delivery via the written word. Second, it hints at credibility. Thank you, and thank you.

@ the OP:
Which 'combat pistols' are agreed to be trouble free depends on which board you go to, LGS you shop at, etc. The most common answers circulating right now are probably: 1st-early 3rd Gen Glocks, 1911s, HK P30s, or PPQs. That doesn't reflect my personal opinions, just what I commonly see from board to board, shop to shop, and in recommendation from high profile trainers (Vickers, Costa, Haley, Howe, Lamb, Defoor, Panonne, Macnamara, Falla, etc).

As for my personal opinion... I don't have one. There are a number of pistols that I know are a virtual certainty to run great out of the box.

@ "combat pistols":
There are two things that people on both sides of this argument should understand.

1. Not all pistols are designed for combat. Some are designed strictly for recreation or competition, for example. While it is true that any pistol can be deployed against other people, the distinction for many people within the gun community is clearly the purpose behind the design.

2. Words carry the power that we (people as a whole) assign to them. Once a term becomes used in a particular way by the majority, the assigned value effectively changes. No matter how much anyone hates the term "combat pistol", the bottom line is that everyone in this thread understood that it was used in reference to pistols designed for service use.

tirod
November 2, 2013, 09:01 PM
In the military, the pistol isn't considered a combat weapon. If the soldier is in combat, they use a rifle, or, are part of a crew served weapon.

In the Marines, nobody under the rank of Colonel carries a pistol into combat. Pretty common in a lot of combat arms units, and there are lots of reports of combat commanders back in WWII who carried Garands. Their point was that they didn't want to be distinguished by snipers as being in command by carrying a pistol.

Let's not forget one common saying the internet has spread, that a pistol is what you use to fight to your rifle.

So far, every military pistol I ever heard of eventually became a butt of jokes about it's inadequacies.

BurgerBoy
November 2, 2013, 09:14 PM
I have a Bersa Thunder 9 UC Pro and I have never had a failure of any kind and it has around 2,000 rounds through it. It goes bang every time you pull the trigger.

RBid
November 2, 2013, 09:41 PM
tirod,

While we all understand that it is rare for handguns to be used in combat, it does happen. I have 2 friends who have each had to use handguns to engage insurgents.

Dragline45
November 2, 2013, 10:49 PM
We're looking for the guns no one even argues about there being a problem or not.

That gun does not exist. What fits one persons needs might not fit the next guys, what one person finds an issue might not be an issue for another. Some may own a particular pistol that has ran for thousands of rounds without a hiccup, some may have had a catastrophic failure in the first 100 rounds.

LockedBreech
November 2, 2013, 11:14 PM
They all have some issue. If any one was that much better than all the others there'd be no debate left. Even one that is perfect on paper might not be perfect for a particular shooter. An example of this would be the Glock grip angle that some shooters hate. Other things that look like issues might not be for some shooters. An example of this is how the Beretta 92 is considered by many to be too large/bulky, but for some shooters such as myself with large hands it fits like a glove.

That said, to me there does seem to be a core of pistols that most unbiased people will agree are at least very well-proven and satisfactory to a relative large user base. Off the top of my head, this would include, at a minimum:

Beretta's 92-series
Glock
Smith & Wesson's M&P series and 3rd Gen series
CZ's CZ-75 series
Sig's "Classic P Series"
Browning's Hi-Power
Browning's/Colt's 1911
HK's USP series, P2000 series, and P30 series
Walther's P99

This, of course, is a very subjective list, mine alone, and is undoubtedly missing some. :)

RCPractitioner
November 3, 2013, 06:03 AM
1911's
Glocks
Springfield XD and XDms
Ruger P series
Sig 226
HK
Smith and Wesson MPs

the list could go on and on

mes228
November 3, 2013, 07:15 AM
H&K (any USP and P2000 Models) and most Glock Models (Models 17,19,22,23 in Generation 3). Just my opinion but is based on owning these over the years and shooting them a lot. I've also had no problems with other plastic pistols but have not fired them as extensively as these two brands. I've never had a malfunction of any kind with these models. Perhaps I've just been lucky. As an aside, all I shoot is factory ammo. Seems reloads are some large degree of pistol failures.

jmr40
November 3, 2013, 09:10 AM
The two proven best combat pistols out there would be the Colt 1911A1 and the Makarov PM. Period.


Probably more negative stuff out there about 1911's than all others combined. I've had good ones and bad, but overall a 1911 would be the most distrusted guns I've ever owned.

In the Marines, nobody under the rank of Colonel carries a pistol into combat.

My brother in law, since retired, was a Sargent in the USMC in 2005 and carried a Beretta in Iraq. I've seen photos of him wearing it in a drop holster on his thigh.

You aren't going to get a consensus. All of them have issues, you just pick the traits most important to you.

RBid
November 3, 2013, 09:29 AM
I know a Marine below Col in rank who carried a sidearm, and I would assume that the M45A1 order wasn't put in to decorate officers.

boondocker385
November 3, 2013, 11:18 AM
If you are taking a pistol as your primary into combat you have made a grave tactical error.

That said I have a first generation Taurus 92 with 13,000+ rounds thru it with no problems. Several old 1911s several Glocks two sigs and a bunch of revolvers. Only the Taurus has been "perfect".

There is no perfect gun.

4V50 Gary
November 3, 2013, 11:37 AM
When I think combat, I think of a pistol. For me, there are only two other types:

Competition pistols which are tricked out prima-donnas that must be given the right diet of ammunition to function

Collectible. Museum pieces or safe queens.

So, which type of defensive pistols work for me?

Rugers right out of the box. Ruger builds them tough and reliable.
CZ-75. Fits my hand the best after the P-08 or BHP.

militant
November 3, 2013, 12:04 PM
I can't speak for all Glocks, but I am still waiting for one of my Glocks to have a malfunction of ANY kind. I have a a Gen 2 Glock 22 that I purchased as a retired police officers gun that I have had for over 10 years now and thousands of round threw and a Gen 4 Glock 23 that has 500 rounds threw. Neither of them have ever had a malfunction. These are the only two guns I have that I have not sold or trade over the years.

In memory of dad
November 5, 2013, 06:27 AM
No semi auto comes to mind because there weakness are in the mags or a bad batch of ammo or more moving parts and so on so my choice for the list would be
S@w model 10
All metal work if art that keeps going even after 100 years

WildBill45
November 5, 2013, 08:47 AM
NO GUN OF ANY MAKE

Rolls Royce can have issues, if made by man it is not perfect.

fastbolt
November 5, 2013, 02:21 PM
As a firearms instructor since '90, I've seen my fair share of all manner of different semiautomatic pistols exhibit occasional issues.

As a LE armorer who has been through more than 20+ armorer classes, I can't think of a single class where possible problems and corrective/repair actions weren't discussed, and listed in the manuals.

Granted, the significant majority (by a WIDE margin) of "gun problems" I've had to help resolve over the years have been caused by the shooter, and to a much lesser extent some occasional ammunition issues, but there have still been actual gun problems to address upon occasion. They're machines, made by other machines, assembled by people. Wear & tear from shooting them, and occasional materials issues, breakage, etc, can happen in the real world.

As an armorer I wouldn't make orders for spare/repair parts and preventive maintenance if I didn't have to spend the money. ;)

For most "average" owners of most of the modern good quality semiauto pistols designs, some prudent investment in recoil & mag springs for periodic replacement is probably all they'd ever have cause to need.

Well, that, and actually learning how to properly clean, lubricate and maintain their guns according to manufacturer recommendations, and not just in some manner that makes them "feel good" about themselves. :rolleyes:

HKFan9
November 5, 2013, 06:40 PM
I work in a gun smith shop, in charge of all the paperwork, FFL transfers, and warranty repairs, recalls, ect.

I can honestly say I have pretty much seen multiple of every brand fail.... Crap happens, mistakes are made. To me it does not take away from the brands any, like I said, mistakes are made.

It doesn't shock me when a Glock comes back broken, even though some people think they are made from ground up unicorn horns and oiled with fairy tears.

We hade a HK USP .45 a guy blew the frame in half, and swore it wasn't reloads.:rolleyes: HK was kind enough to replace the frame and repair the firearm.

Guns like anything break down from time to time or there are lemons out there. What really matters is that the company does to help you with that situation.

RX-79G
November 5, 2013, 06:58 PM
I should have written a more descriptive title, since virtually no one read the text or any of my explanatory posts that followed.


Mods, feel free to close this one.

HKFan9
November 5, 2013, 07:05 PM
I don't think its a matter of us reading your post, I think its a matter of a vague or confusing question.

In one breath you asked for brands that NEVER fail, or are not know to fail, while still admitting there are always lemons and problems.

I think a lot of us tried to answer your question as best we could... EVERYTHING FAILS, therefore there's not one brand NEVER known to fail.

RX-79G
November 5, 2013, 07:28 PM
No, I asked which brands or models don't have "Known Issues", meaning repeat problems of the same kind.

Then I gave examples, like front sights falling off the same model Ruger many times, or a particular brand having a reputation for detonating .40 cases. Or companies that just generally have a poor rep, like Kimber.

My aim was to find pistols that did not have a reputation for any particular mechanical failing, and I can't seem to explain that well enough for a fairly simple question to be answered.

Example: CZ-75b. Maybe some people had some jams, one guy a sight issue, another guy had a mag latch problem, and one more had a finish issue. Results: Great overall reputation, no repeat problems; meets criteria.

Comments about grip angle, capacity, weight - off topic.
Comments about the definition of "combat pistol" (something that is well understood enough to have a magazine named after it) - off topic.
Comments that any gun can have a one off problem: Covered in OP - off topic.

seeker_two
November 5, 2013, 09:19 PM
I don't think anyone here has complained about the Roth-Steyr pistols.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth-Steyr_M1907

HKFan9
November 5, 2013, 11:23 PM
CZ75's sheer their slide stops given enough rounds.... ask most anyone, myself included, who shoots one in IPSC OR IDPA... the competition models used to ship with extra ones....

Like I said.. they all break down at some point, they are man made.

sigarms228
November 6, 2013, 12:21 AM
CZs are decent guns but not trouble free. My experiences with my Son's SP-01 has shown me that.

Here is what Todd Green from Pistol Forum posted about CZs:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

27-Jun-10 – 08:00 by ToddG

"As an instructor, I strive to be a good student. Good students are always learning. And last week in Canada, I learned that CZ pistols (pronounced “see zed” in Canadiese) are as reliable as a Ford.

A Ford Pinto, that is.

There were four CZ75-pattern guns (one Tangfolio and three genuine CZs) used by three different students over the course of the week, and every one of them had reliability problems.

The owners were great students and never let the pistol problems interfere with the class. They had fantastic attitudes and shot very well when their guns worked. But from failures to feed to failures to extract to failures to eject to failures to lock back to premature lock back, we saw the whole spectrum of handgun malfunctions from those guns.

The Glocks in the class didn’t have any consistent problems. Even the two S&W 3rd Generation pistols ran well except for some grip and lubrication hiccups. In fact, the only gun that had more problems was a used, second-hand Para P14.45, and who is surprised by that?

CZ pistols are both popular and successful in the world competition arena. They’re also very common among various militaries throughout the globe. But here in the U.S., they’ve never really earned a serious share of the market. They have a reputation for reliability and durability problems. And after four straight days of watching them choke, I’d say it’s a well deserved reputation.

In fairness, one student got his gun working 100% on day four after replacing the extractor spring. The pistol had a little under 14,000 rounds through it when the troubles began. If that had been the only CZ that suffered such trouble during the classes, it would be excusable. But all four?

The CZ is a shootable gun. The CZ Shadow I shot had an excellent trigger and was accurate enough for me to hit an 8″ range marker at 100yd. The owner (class host Rob Engh) reports that he’s easily averaging 0.17 splits and on some drills turning in 0.14 and even 0.13 splits with that same pistol!

Nonetheless, if a gun can’t be depended upon to go bang when the trigger is pressed, it’s a paperweight. Speed and accuracy mean a lot less when you’re prying a stuck case out from underneath an extractor claw.

I’m sure there will be CZ fans who will talk about their personally owned guns that have gone x-number of rounds without a problem. And I don’t doubt it. But when put to the test under the stress of a high volume shooting class, these guns simply couldn’t make it. Not one, not two, but all four.

Zed is not your friend."

44 AMP
November 6, 2013, 01:05 AM
Then I gave examples, like front sights falling off the same model Ruger many times, or a particular brand having a reputation for detonating .40 cases. Or companies that just generally have a poor rep, like Kimber.


I think you also need to look at the time. Pistols that have consistent issues get fixed. Designs get modified, improved, until the issue goes away.

Beretta92s (M9), for instance. There was an issue with slides and the locking blocks, at one time. Not today.

The M1911A1 Govt model pistol, cal .45, at one time widely held to be rugged, durable, accurate, powerful, and uber reliable. Of course, that was back when only Colt was making Govt models, WWII contract guns were still fairly "young" and the only ammunition was 230gr GI ball or handloads.

Glock got a pretty poor reputation for treating individual consumers with near contempt back when their primary focus was on dominating the police market. Don't hear those complaints much today.

If you are looking for the gun in current production that nobody complains about today, I got no clue. Sorry.

LockedBreech
November 6, 2013, 11:17 AM
44 AMP makes a great point, it's the first thing I thought of when the OP mentioned Beretta 92 locking blocks. The newest (third generation) design has no reported issues I have read about. Like the recoil spring it is a part with a maintenance schedule, but apparently now it actually meets or exceeds that schedule.

Similarly, the Fourth Generation Glocks, which had massive reliability issues in the service-sized (19 and 17) 9mms when first released, seem to have leveled off nicely.

RX-79G
November 6, 2013, 02:30 PM
I don't think old 92s and gen 4 19s invalidate the basic idea. That's exactly the kind of trends I am talking about.

And whether they have been fixed or not, will a consumer looking for a gun for protection be able to tell a good 19 from a bad one, or is it better and safer to avoid gen 4 in that model?

Sometimes guns aren't toys and it matters if they are likely to be reliable or not.

mukibetser
November 6, 2013, 03:15 PM
Based purely on personal experience and the guns I happen to own. When I say 0 problems I mean it literally, never had a failure to feed, eject, etc. including in the "breakin period" if there is such a thing:

CZ P01: 1500+ rounds. Only problem occurred in a 2 day defensive pistol class, several FTEs, instructor thought was caused by overlubrication gumming things up.

SIG P226: 1000+ rounds. Occasional failure to lock back on empty. I believe caused by my hand position on the slide release, which I understand happens with the 226, rather than a problem with the gun

Walther PPQ: 500+ rounds. 0 problems

HK P2000: 1200+ rounds: 0 problems

Kahr PM9: 500+ rounds: 0 problems

S&W 1911 Compact ES: 600+ rounds. Frequent failure to feed. Better but not completely fixed after trip back to S&W. I don't consider this gun reliable for carry.

SIG 1911 Tacops: 600+ rounds: 0 problems

HKFan9
November 6, 2013, 08:22 PM
CZs are decent guns but not trouble free. My experiences with my Son's SP-01 has shown me that.

Here is what Todd Green from Pistol Forum posted about CZs:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

27-Jun-10 – 08:00 by ToddG

"As an instructor, I strive to be a good student. Good students are always learning. And last week in Canada, I learned that CZ pistols (pronounced “see zed” in Canadiese) are as reliable as a Ford.

A Ford Pinto, that is.

There were four CZ75-pattern guns (one Tangfolio and three genuine CZs) used by three different students over the course of the week, and every one of them had reliability problems.

The owners were great students and never let the pistol problems interfere with the class. They had fantastic attitudes and shot very well when their guns worked. But from failures to feed to failures to extract to failures to eject to failures to lock back to premature lock back, we saw the whole spectrum of handgun malfunctions from those guns.

The Glocks in the class didn’t have any consistent problems. Even the two S&W 3rd Generation pistols ran well except for some grip and lubrication hiccups. In fact, the only gun that had more problems was a used, second-hand Para P14.45, and who is surprised by that?

CZ pistols are both popular and successful in the world competition arena. They’re also very common among various militaries throughout the globe. But here in the U.S., they’ve never really earned a serious share of the market. They have a reputation for reliability and durability problems. And after four straight days of watching them choke, I’d say it’s a well deserved reputation.

In fairness, one student got his gun working 100% on day four after replacing the extractor spring. The pistol had a little under 14,000 rounds through it when the troubles began. If that had been the only CZ that suffered such trouble during the classes, it would be excusable. But all four?

The CZ is a shootable gun. The CZ Shadow I shot had an excellent trigger and was accurate enough for me to hit an 8″ range marker at 100yd. The owner (class host Rob Engh) reports that he’s easily averaging 0.17 splits and on some drills turning in 0.14 and even 0.13 splits with that same pistol!

Nonetheless, if a gun can’t be depended upon to go bang when the trigger is pressed, it’s a paperweight. Speed and accuracy mean a lot less when you’re prying a stuck case out from underneath an extractor claw.

I’m sure there will be CZ fans who will talk about their personally owned guns that have gone x-number of rounds without a problem. And I don’t doubt it. But when put to the test under the stress of a high volume shooting class, these guns simply couldn’t make it. Not one, not two, but all four.

Zed is not your friend."


I posted my comment about CZ because it was a known issue with a firearm usually held in high regards, but I have a major issue with this guys logic. Anything in life simply can't be judged by one example, him being an instructor and an expert should know this. I have seen my fair share of Glocks fail on the training range, I don't go around telling people they are poorly made problematic guns.:confused:

LockedBreech
November 6, 2013, 08:41 PM
I posted my comment about CZ because it was a known issue with a firearm usually held in high regards, but I have a major issue with this guys logic. Anything in life simply can't be judged by one example, him being an instructor and an expert should know this. I have seen my fair share of Glocks fail on the training range, I don't go around telling people they are poorly made problematic guns.:confused:

According to the author's conversation in the comments, these 4 CZs are simply an example, not the whole basis for his opinion. He claims to have seen more CZ issues in many training sessions than issues from top tier brands. He names Glock, Sig, HK, and Beretta as notably more reliable.

I love the looks of CZs, but I've also seen too many issues to trust them as much as a USP or 92FS. Others' milage may vary.

HKFan9
November 7, 2013, 03:17 AM
USP's and 92's have their fair share of issues as well. :rolleyes: I get to deal with them all more often than I care to remember. USP was my first handgun, but I couldn't get over how awful the trigger was. I did just have a .45acp USP come back with the guy blew the frame literally in half the slide and barrel were all fine but he basically blew the entire rear half of the frame off along with the back strap of the grip.

This is obviously not an occurring issue with the USP, I suspect a bad hand load but he swore it was from factory ammo. HK replaced it for him at a charge.

CZ's used to sheer their slide stops, but its honestly been awhile since I have seen one do it. I own a CZ-75B I bought used for $300 and it has been a great pistol. I know a few IPSC shooters who swear by them. I would not hesitate to own one based on one instructor being bias against them.

I understand he states it was over multiple classes, but the fact he or you lumps a EAA/Tangfolio together with the CZ's makes me question how much he really knows. If those are the standards we are going by I can lump the Taurus PT92's I have gotten back with issues with the Beretta 92's.... I don't think I have the banwidth to go into detail on their issues.:eek:

I got a chance to shoot all the CZ's at a closed range session with two of their reps. I watched about 200 people run magazine after magazine through their demo guns with out any hitches. I shot a few mags in the ones I was interested in, however once the Rep started taking out the Dan Wesson 1911's I found myself only shooting them.:D

clinck
November 7, 2013, 04:51 AM
I shoot a CZ75B and have had no problems the thing shoots well with any shaped head of bullet. I have put rounds through it that jam even glocks and to be honest i probably should not have put them through my gun either. Its not a fussy gun. I have thought of getting something else but noticed that when shooting IPSC I look at the other guys guns and many shoot STI's Glocks and so on. I think to myself maybe an STI is the way to go but then the guys with the STI's and Glocks seem to loose a lot of time on the range clearing jams where as if I have one jam in three meetings its a lot.

So I have a dilema in deciding what my next gun should be cause there is nothing worse than struggling with jams all day long because the gun is tempramental.

dayman
November 7, 2013, 05:56 AM
I'm pretty sure Glocks's are universally loved.
I just polled 100% of the men sitting in my living room, and I think they make a pretty nice firearm.

In all seriousness, I don't think there is a gun that everyone agrees on.
And furthermore, I don't think there should be.
Different people have different needs and different likes/dislikes. That's why there are so many options out there, and, generally, even options within individual brands and models.

Statistically, there are several brands that everyone - at least everyone capable of objectively looking at statistics - should be able to agree are very unlikely to have issues.

In alphabetical order, a few that come to mind are:
Beretta, Colt, CZ, FN, HK, Glock, Ruger, Sig, S&W, Springfield, Walther

However, every brand has it's detractors for one reason or another:
A lot of people can't make the distinction between personal preference and objective superiority/inferiority.
And it's impossible to manufacture a mechanical devise that has a 0% failure rate.

If you're trying to select a gun for your self the best method is going to be to try some different options. If you have a friend who shoot's and who's opinion you trust ask them for some suggestions.
One problem with asking this kind of question on an internet forum is you're going to get an overload of opinions. It's a good starting point, but all we can do is tell you what we like. You're the only one that's going to know what you like.

cdbeagle
November 9, 2013, 02:11 AM
I think my CZ SP-01 Tactical is awesome. I haven't owned it near as long as I have owned my Stoeger Cougar. I have complete trust in my Cougar even though I don't think anyone would place it in the same class as my CZ.

I don't care for S&W, Ruger and Glock. Not that there is anything wrong with them(there isn't), they just don't float my boat and I really cannot tell you why. I think there is an unconscious bias in all of us toward certain brands or types of firearms.