1911 Full Length Giude Rods vs not

[Rabbitt]

I have seen a few discussion on the FLGR vs not having it. I guess I am not really sure either way which is the way to go.

Does it make a difference?
How so?

I am not starting to try to start a camp war just wanting some reasons or opinions why one or the other.

If I am understanding things correctly it was originally the short guide rod? Why the change.

[1911Tuner]

Does it make a difference?

No.

If I am understanding things correctly it was originally the short guide rod.

Correct.

Why the change.

"What is it for?"

"To sell, of course."

[Tom Servo]

Tuner is correct. Full-length guide rods exist so companies can make money selling full-length guide rods. The original claim was that they'd increase accuracy and/or reliability, but I have never seen any evidence of that.

As far as I can tell, they only make the gun harder to strip and reassemble.

[RickB]

It does add a bit of weight to the gun, right where you want it to help control muzzle flip. I have a .45 and a .38 Super that are set up as alike as possible, and the Super has th FLGR in it, as the smaller-diameter barrel weighs less than the .45 barrel, so the FLGR makes the weight and balance more nearly alike.
FLGRs made out of tungsten add another couple of ounces, if you like some more weight out front.
If you have a rimfire conversion for your centerfire gun, equipping both the a FLGR makes for much easier swapping between the two, as the uppers remain self-contained units when removed from the frame.

[Rabbitt]

Tom. You say it makes it harder to strip and reassemble. Would you explain that a bit more.

I have 1911's in both configuration. I don't see where one is harder than the other. I am more used to the FLGR so stumbled a bit on the short one as the spring didn't come out the way I expected it to.

[Fishbed77]

As far as I can tell, they only make the gun harder to strip and reassemble.

My Colt XSE with a FLGR is no more difficult to strip and reassemble than a 1911 with a standard guide rod.

That said, I do not think a FLGR is a necessity nor a hindrance. The 1911s I've shot with and without them seem to be pretty equal as far as reliability or accuracy goes. The ones with a FLGR "feel" a little slicker when fondling/racking the slide, but I haven't seen any other real benefits.

[Kreyzhorse]

A FLGR can add extra steps to take down. That was certainly the case with my Springfield TRP and additionally it required an Allen wrench.

As far as function and benefit. I didn't see any improvement in function or any perceived benefit other than making takedown more difficult.

I quickly replaced it with a standard GI rod and plug. I am much happier with the replacement. In my opinion, a FLGR is simply a gimmick.

If I were you and the gun I wanted had a FlGR, I'd buy the gun and replace it. It it didn't have one, that is even better.

[Tom Servo]

Tom. You say it makes it harder to strip and reassemble. Would you explain that a bit more.
With a standard plunger, I can press down and turn the bushing. With most FLGR's, I need a wrench.

[polyphemus]

"If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck"
Tuner is not only an M1911 authority but he has the gift of patience.
Thank you.

[twice barrel]

My experience is limited to two 1911's. My RIA Tactical has a full length and my Ruger has the stubby one. As long as you remove the spring/plug first there's not much difference. But when you prefer to remove the slide and then break down the spring/plug & barrel its a WORLD of difference.

For whatever reason I think the full length guide rod is simpler by a tad.

[Technosavant]

Depending on the FLGR, you might need an allen wrench to unscrew them (Springfield Armory), but you probably will need a tool to properly depress the recoil spring plug (those ones for FLGRs are sharp and cut into the thumb).

I've yet to see any issue fixed by a FLGR, but I have seen some problems that one will make worse. For example, at my last visit we discovered my father's RIA will NOT chamber my reloads*, and jammed it up but good. I had to press the front of the slide against a shelf to remove the round... with a FLGR that isn't happening.

*Beats me why. They're full length resized in a Lee Factory Crimp Die and run perfectly in my three 1911s. Seems that RIA just hates anything that isn't genuine factory ammo... it even hates factory reloads. Heck, it even hates the stock magazines. Weird gun.

[UtahHunting]

I am glad I stumbled upon this thread. I was just about to pull the trigger on a full length guide rod for my 1911-22. I don't think I will spend the money now, seems it is not needed.

[shootniron]

No difference...personal preference.

[RamItOne]

Want to need a tool to field strip or not?

[shootniron]

Want to need a tool to field strip or not?

None of my FLGR guns require a tool.

[1911Tuner]

None of my FLGR guns require a tool.

None of your pistols have a true FLGR. They have the compromise FLGR that will allow the bushing to clear the end of the rod. The real ones are flush with the face of the plug and require removal before the bushing can move.

IMO, having to carry tools around in order to field-strip my pistol...allen and bushing wrench...just doesn't sit well with me. I like being able to field-strip and reassemble in 8-10 seconds and 12-15 seconds respectively...the way that JMB and the US Army truly intended.

During the trials, there were several officers on the board who didn't like the Colt, stating that it was too big and too heavy, despite its having just trounced the Savage in the accuracy and reliability phase. When it came time to demonstrate the ease of service in the field portion, the Savage rep unrolled his tool set and started. Browning stepped up to the table and had the Colt apart and back together...without tools...before the other guy could get his pistol apart. Even the most vocal opponents realized that it was time to sit down and shut up.

Allow me to be blunt.

Of all the bells and whistles that have been hung on modern 1911 pistols, the FLGR ranks among the silliest and most useless. It doesn't do anything any better or even as well as the standard spring guide, which brings us back to the base question:

"What is it for?"

[thedudeabides]

1911Tuner, why do some manufacturers bother to make FLGR, then? I can't imagine someone engineering this part for no reason?

But I own all short guide rod 1911s, I've never had a problem with them shooting inaccurately.

My favorite innovation over the GI model, tho, has to be the BGS. I only own one GI and it bites me sometimes.

[Sport45]

1911Tuner, why do some manufacturers bother to make FLGR, then? I can't imagine someone engineering this part for no reason?


He already answered that. They make 'em because folk are willing to buy 'em.

I bought one too. Now it's in one of the misc parts boxes somewhere in my garage....

Probably right beside the .400 Cor-Bon barrel & spring. :)

[2ndsojourn]

"1911Tuner, why do some manufacturers bother to make FLGR, then? I can't imagine someone engineering this part for no reason?"

Dude, for the same reason some manufacturers make single ply toilet paper -- People buy it. ;)

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner, why do some manufacturers bother to make FLGR, then?

It goes back to the question:

"What is it for?" (Things are presumably made for a reason.)

All too often, the answer is:

"To sell, of course!"

Like heavy-duty recoil springs and plastic thingies sold with the presumption of saving the frame or some other such nonsense, marketing 101 is in full effect.

To wit:

First, convince the buyer that he needs it, and then sell it to him.

[Rabbitt]

Tom Servo and 1911Tuner. Thank you both for your insight and comments. You do make a lot of good points and answered my question(s).

I appreciate everyone who joined in and made it an interesting conversation.

Always nice to learn from others.

[Fishbed77]

Want to need a tool to field strip or not?

My Colt Government XSE has a FLGR. My brother's S&W SW1911 has a FLGR.

Neither needs a tool to field strip.

The FLGR is just a non-issue in my experience. As far as I know, it's useless, and I didn't seek out a particular model because it had the FLGR.

But since it's been a non-issue, I've seen no need to switch it out. YMMV.

[KyJim]

Ed Brown used to only offer pistols with the standard "GI" length guide rod. Apparently some (uninformed) buyers thought a top end 1911 should come with a FLGR. So, Brown started putting a FLGR into his top end product, the Classic Custom. He's also glad to sell you FLGRs. If the Eskimos want to buy ice, why not sell it to them?

I've got three 1911s with FLGRs, none of them carry guns. I've got some standard length guide rods around somewhere but just haven't gotten around to changing them out. Not a huge deal, just unnecessary and slightly more of a hassle.

[rab]

I put an EFK FireDragon Dual Spring in my RIA Govt about a year ago. I've chased the plug a couple of times. I don't use the tool. It dose put more weight up front, and the top can come off in one piece. It does make a diff. Mine has an extra spring internally that smooths things out a little. It's one of those inexpensive up-grades that occasionally makes a difference.

[Water-Man]

For the doubters, why not call Springfield and ask why they put them in and report back to us.

[Noreaster]

My S&W1911 came with one and it's worked fine for me. I do need the tool to take it down and it does require an extra .5 second to take out the FLGR. My series 80 didn't have one and it also worked fine. If your gun didn't come with one I probably wouldn't invest in it.

[45_auto]

For the doubters, why not call Springfield and ask why they put them in and report back to us.

Springfield told me that the reason they use them on the lower priced models is because people will pay $20 extra for a part that costs them $4. The reason they DON'T use them on the top-end Operator ($1500) and Professional ($2500) models is because they expect that people who buy guns at that level are more interested in performance and reliability than looking cool.

Why don't you tell us why you think they put them in?

[James K]

Tuner wrote:

"...the FLGR ranks among the silliest and most useless. It doesn't do anything any better or even as well as the standard spring guide..."

It does one thing better. It allows the gun to fire when it is dropped on the muzzle, thereby giving us all those firing pin blocks we love so much. In the original design, the slide will move back against the spring, absorbing almost all the shock and reducing (if not quite eliminating) the possibility of the gun firing. With a FLGR, there is nothing to absorb the shock, the firing pin creeps forward and the gun fires. And CA passes another law we don't need.

In developing the Radom, the Poles first used a solid FLGR. Then, in testing, they found that the gun would fire if dropped on the muzzle. That is why the production Radom has a sectioned guide rod with an internal spring.

Jim

[RickB]

I've heard to different sides to the "tactical" advantages/disadvantages of the two types of guide rods.
The first says that the short, G.I. rod allows racking the gun by pushing the slide against the edge of a solid object, to load, or perhaps clear a malfunction.
The other side of the record says the FLGR will prevent you from inadvertently jacking-out a round, or causing a malfunction by bumping the end of the slide against the edge of a solid object.
The latter seems unlikely to me, but with all the "ledge" sighs available (ten years ago, all the sights plugged their smoothness and lack of sharp edges and angles, now the sights have sharp edges and angles, so you can hook the sight on the edge of the object that you used to push the slide against when you had smooth, edgeless sights), you can use the sight to rack the slide.

[KyJim]

The other side of the record says the FLGR will prevent you from inadvertently jacking-out a round, or causing a malfunction by bumping the end of the slide against the edge of a solid object. Not a problem. I keep my carry/defense 1911s cocked and locked.

[Water-Man]

45 auto,

You got your answer. Why be redundant?:rolleyes:

[NJgunowner]

Both my 1911's came with FLGRs. I replaced them with the GI plugs with in a week a buying them. I hate those PITB.

[polyphemus]

"The other side of the record says the FLGR will prevent you from inadvertently jacking-out a round, or causing a malfunction by bumping the end of the slide against the edge of a solid object"
This didn't make any sense to me until I played it backwards.

[1911Tuner]

The other side of the record says the FLGR will prevent you from inadvertently jacking-out a round, or causing a malfunction by bumping the end of the slide against the edge of a solid object

That sounds like something that was made up on the fly by someone who knows not what he knows not...or was repeating what he heard from someone who knows not what he knows not.

In the first place, a bump against a solid object ain't gonna jack a round out, and causing a malfunction is so unlikely that it can be ignored.

In the second place...an accidental bump against a solid object would have to be pretty carefully planned and executed in order to be imposed on the spring plug instead of the muzzle...which will only result in a quarter-inch of slide travel rearward, maximum.

[twice barrel]

On my two 1911's I don't have to have any tools to strip them but I find the tip of an old toothbrush handle makes it a bit easier to depress the plug while turning the bushing instead of making the tip of my finger sore. To me the FLGR is just plain simpler and I don't understand why all 1911's don't come with them. My RIA didn't see a factory round for a good bit because I couldn't find any and it functioned just fine with handloads...230gr LRN's and 185 Plated HP's and 185 JHP's. The issues noted by the experts above tell me that each pistol is unique and subject to quirks of its own. I've found this true with many things; vehicles, lawnmowers, chainsaws, and guns come to mind.

[1911Tuner]

On my two 1911's I don't have to have any tools to strip them but I find the tip of an old toothbrush handle makes it a bit easier to depress the plug while turning the bushing instead of making the tip of my finger sore.

Try gripping the pistol in your fist like a hammer with the back of the frame on your leg and using your thumbnail to depress it.

Adjust hand placement as necessary.

Makes launching the plug a lot less likely.

[dahermit]

I have to admit that a Full Length Guide Rod is an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. Never heard of a problem with the standard short Guide Rod, so why fix it? I suspect that the FLGR was intended to prevent the recoil spring from kinking and slowing the cycling of the gun. The point that the short/standard rod/recoil spring never had that problem in the first place, was obviously over-looked.

[James K]

I once ran into a fellow at a gun show who was selling FLGRs of a design he had invented.

I said much the same thing I have said many times - the sole purpose of an FLGR is to make money for the maker and seller. Boy did I hear it! Not only did a FLGR improve feeding and accuracy, reduce recoil, eliminate evil spells, etc., etc., but insured against all kinds of other problems. The guy was practically raving, yelling at me and another fellow who had also questioned the need for a FLGR. Finally, I just laughed and walked away, but he actually followed me for several yards, still ranting about his marvelous invention.

I still think they are worthless and, like I said, have caused all kinds of collateral damage in the way of firing pin blocks, and so on.

Jim

[robertsig]

I replaced all my FLGR's with regular ones. I like the GI rods better and would rather have them all the same for consistency.

[smallshot]

Ok Guys, have I got a deal for you. I've just invented a better mousetrap in the form of a spiraled, striped painted, (much like the old barbershop device that hangs on the corner of the shop), 12 piece, ball bearing FLGR that actually adds stability to the gun as the round is fired. The draft that is created from the slide movement creates a back draft and the specially formulated textured paint that is applied to the rod imparts a gyroscopic effect that is guaranteed to produce accurate results and for the low low price of just 99.99............

[darkgael]

Springfield told me.....The reason they DON'T use them on the top-end Operator ($1500) and Professional ($2500) models is because they expect that people who buy guns at that level are more interested in performance and reliability than looking cool.

I suspect that there is a little bit of BS in that comment from Springfield. How does a part that you can't see make you look cool?
About one or the other.....I have used both and don't find any difference. The guns work and are accurate and reliable.
At this point, both of my 1911s - Bullseye guns - have the FLGRs just because that is what was in them from the start. I suppose that I could put the short plug in but don't see any advantage to the change. Probably I could say the same thing if both guns had the short rod in all this time.

Pete

[polyphemus]

"How does a part that you can't see make you look cool?"
This is not about "cool"it's about the "can't see"statement and every time
you retract your slide which I'm sure you occasionally do that useless part
visibly sticks out like a sore thumb.

[darkgael]

"How does a part that you can't see make you look cool?"
This is not about "cool"it's about the "can't see"statement and every time
you retract your slide which I'm sure you occasionally do that useless part
visibly sticks out like a sore thumb.
Well...I stand corrected. I wasn't thinking about it that way.
Shows how often I look at the end of my gun when the slide is retracted.
It does stick out.

[polyphemus]

"Shows how often I look at the end of my gun when the slide is retracted."
Please don't feel bad,better to look "at" the end of the pistol with a retracted
slide than "into"the end of the pistol with the slide in battery.Safety first

[Quincunx]

It does add a bit of weight to the gun, right where you want it to help control muzzle flip.

I have also found this to be true, and it has seemed to make my Combat Commander a little quicker for a followup shot. However, I freely admit that the difference is marginal.

[kutz]

My TRP works great, ain't broke won't fix her.