Another SAFE Act Unintended Consequence-- Illegal to transport an AR15 with Ammo

[Brian Pfleuger]

A few hours ago, I got a phone call from Jim Tresmond, lead attorney in the Dywinski v. State Of New York (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=514460) suit.

He tells me that they have identified yet another unintended consequence in the "SAFE" Act...

Hopefully, Maxb49 will be along to fill in any details or errors in my reporting here.;)

Anyway, under the SAFE Act, AR15 rifles are now classified as "firearms" in NY State. This sounds obvious to any normal person, but the legal definition of a firearm in NY has never included ordinary long guns.

The problem that this creates is that it is illegal to transport a "loaded" firearm in a vehicle in NY State without a permit.

Here again, this may sound obvious, until we find that an appeals court has found that the definition of "loaded" includes POSSESSING a "quantity of ammunition sufficient to discharge the firearm.

Yes, you read that right. POSSESSING enough ammo to discharge the firearm. Not loaded in the chamber... not in the magazine... IN POSSESSION.

How much ammunition is a quantity sufficient to discharge the firearm? Yes, one round.

It is now illegal, in NY State, to transport an AR15 rifle and ammunition in the same vehicle.

[MercyfulFate]

Color me shocked! Just kidding, the whole thing is a disaster. I really hope it gets taken to task.

[Southwest Chuck]

What makes him this this was "unintended" ? :(

[mayosligo]

I can only speak of my hometown in Boston, but I do not think the vast majority of constituents are pro gun in a good many of these NOrtheast States. If I had to gauge if pit to a vote most gun control laws would be willingly accepted by a slight majority in and around Boston.

[Pilot]

I would add a caveat to the above statement about the northeast and attitudes towards legal gun ownership, and carry. It is the metro areas, meaning inner cities AND suburbs that are against legal guns ownership, not the more rural areas. The problem is most of the population is in these areas and thus they control the rest of the state. New York, and Boston are prime examples. It is a problem that has spread all over the country. The attitudes, and beliefs of the metro area individuals taking over entire states that were once reasonable, free, and actually common sense about guns. (using their own language against them for a change)

[RichC]

Regarding the comment about the Northeast. I'm from Massachusetts and have to live with insane laws.

Here's an example. When my son was 16 he applied for and received an FID card. He was required to take a full day NRA class to do so. With an FID license he can possess lo-cap long guns. So he could legally possess a shotgun, lo-cap rifle, and ammo.

But some consider the Ruger 10-22 a hi-cap weapon because magazines of >10 capacity are readily available. Many dealers require a Class A firearms license to buy a Ruger 10-22. Yet my son could legally possess my Remington 700p in .308, or even my Barrett .50 BMG. Oh, and in MA you need an FID card to possess pepper spray. That's right, we need a license for pepper spray.

Oh, one more thing... my son could possess the aforementioned firearms with his FID card. But he could not possess a pellet gun. In MA you need to be 18 or older to possess a pellet gun. His FID card is not valid for a pellet gun. He needed some sort of "Police Chief sporting license" that our chief of police never heard of.

Massachusetts is clearly the worst in New England. North of us sanity prevails, so far anyway. Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont are very gun friendly by comparison. Even RI and CT allow purchase of a handgun without a license. A license is needed for CCW.

In MA, a used brass cases falls under the definition of ammunition. And a firearms license is required to possess ammunition.

Does that help y'all understand the madness that is this liberal run state???

[Maxb49]

Thank you Brian. Sadly, everything Brian said is true. Tresmond Law will be publishing soon a full list of the consequences this bill has on gun owners. Most of these consequences have not yet been realized by many people. This is a sad day in our State, and this goes beyond gun rights. It's bad enough that they attack people's right to own and purchase guns. The broader issue, which frankly is scary, is whether a state government has the ability to interfere with your life and criminalize your behavior without so much as giving you reasonable notice, your rights be damned. The issues here are so serious that we're going to be converting to a full time civil rights practice here in Western New York. We have to put an end to this. More to come. . .

[zxcvbob]

It is now illegal, in NY State, to transport an AR15 rifle and ammunition in the same vehicle.


So has the state police taken the rifles out of all their patrol cars? (I know city cops won't obey the law, but state troopers are usually pretty by-the-book)

[mete]

The NYS Supreme Court is soon going to tell us what "arbitrary and capricious" is in the SAFE Act.:rolleyes:

[Maxb49]

The NYS Supreme Court is soon going to tell us what "arbitrary and capricious" is in the SAFE Act.

Yes. Frightening, and (legally) exciting times.

There are now three cases in NYS Supreme Court.

There Robert Schulz case out of Albany. That is returnable on, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) March 11th.

The Dywinskicase (Class Action) is underway in front of Hon. Diane Devlin in Erie County. The first appearance was on 2/21, returnable in April.

Then there is the Holtz case

Those two cases are being handled here.

Lastly, there is the Notice of Claim filed by the NYSRPA, being handled by Goldberg Segalla. Presumably, a Request for Judicial Intervention will be filed soon.

The State is in bigger trouble than many think.

[spacecoast]

Does that include to and from the range?

[Maxb49]

Does that include to and from the range?

I believe so, but I will check tomorrow. This is beyond outrageous.

[BGutzman]

Maybe it wasn't a unintended consequence....

[Ruthless4christ]

does this go for all assault weapons or just the ar-15?

[LancelotLink]

I'm not 100% sure myself, but this may clarify.

New York defines firearms as illegal weapons. Therefore, unlicensed handguns, short barreled rifles/shotguns, and assault weapons are firearms, within the meaning of NY law.

It is possible to remove a weapon from firearm status. Having a pistol license allows you to have a handgun, which is no longer considered a firearm,

Likewise, having a registered assault weapon removes that gun from the firearm classification. However, the registration scheme does not exist yet.

The key here is the reading of how assault weapons can be registered to remove them from being classified as firearms. It says they are not firearms if they are registered pursuant to the SAFE act, and the registration section says they can be registered within one year of the act.

My guess is the issue centers around whether a non registered assault weapon will be considered to comply with the registration section before the one year deadline is up.

Edit to add:

Forget the second part.

The law defines loaded firearm as follows:

265.00 sub 15. "Loaded firearm" means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any
firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a
quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.

Thus, having any weapon that is classified as a firearm (i.e. illegal weapon) and possessing ammo constitutes a loaded firearm.

Then turn to

265.03, which makes possessing a loaded firearm a class C felony, but carves out an exception if the firearm is in your home.

[rebs]

I guess I'll have to drop my AR off at the range and then go back home and get my ammo ?
Being a law abiding citizen I complied with this law ad when I returned to the range I discovered my AR had been stolen. So I guess I won't be able to register it now.

Maybe I should have hooked up my utility trailer and had the AR in the truck and the ammo in the trailer ?

[Maxb49]

My guess is the issue centers around whether a non registered assault weapon will be considered to comply with the registration section before the one year deadline is up.

You are correct, this is the controlling issue. And the problem that we have here is that at least 4 police officers that we have spoken with define the unregistered AR as a "firearm". This is problematic, because they're the ones who are going to be making the stops/arrests. Oliver Wendall Holmes's definition of law as a mere "prediction of what the courts will do" holds true here.

[TMD]

Hindsight, leaving New York 31 years ago is probably one of the best things I've ever done in my life.

[Maxb49]

does this go for all assault weapons or just the ar-15?

Yes. From what Lancelot and I have been posting, you non-New York folks can see that we're in for the fight of our lives here in New York. Don't think for one second that this is going to be contained in New York. We have to win these cases. My people here have to win, NYSRPA has to win. Even Schultz has to win.

Fortunately, we have a real shot at success.

[Ruthless4christ]

Yes. From what Lancelot and I have been posting, you non-New York folks can see that we're in for the fight of our lives here in New York

yeah i live here so I'm not a non-New York folk. no more speeding on the way to the range I guess.

[Mr. Davis]

Unadvertised but certainly not unintended.

[rebs]

Well I guess its official, I am now a criminal. I took my AR and ammo in the same vehicle to the range today.
Thank you NYS politicians that voted for the safe act BS.

[JimDandy]

I wouldn't be so quick to exited utterance your status as a test-case-volunteer on a message board run by lawyers who would comply with a search warrant in a heartbeat, if I were you.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well I guess its official, I am now a criminal. I took my AR and ammo in the same vehicle to the range today.
Thank you NYS politicians that voted for the safe act BS.

Fortunately, it would be like winning the bad luck lottery for you to find a police officer that would enforce this law.

[spacecoast]

Hindsight, leaving New York 31 years ago is probably one of the best things I've ever done in my life.

Yeah, it's a good thing that interview I had in NYC with Salomon Brothers in '87 didn't work out so well. I was just another hayseed from the Midwest. ;)

[Nick S.]

@ BGutzman. Believe me, we are fighting this thing tooth & nail. I send letters every other day. I went to my state Capitol to join in a protest last week. I yelled at 3 of my elected jerks from the side lines last Sunday during the St. Patricks Day Parade in my town. I was wearing my NRA hat & Chuck Schumer came over to shake my hand. I refused. The other 2 saw me & quickly turned away. I call & thank any one in office who is on board for repealing this NY SAFE Act. Last Monday I joined yet another club on Long Island fighting the good fight for New Yorkers who are very active politically. I've been an NRA member since the mid 70s.

[mayosligo]

Give em hell Nick S.

[Nick S.]

Thanks for the support Mayosligo.

[rebs]

I talked with a State Trooper and with a County Sheriff about this and they both had the same feelings, that this new law is very difficult to interpret and enforce if they were to enforce it. This part starts now, this part starts next month, this part starts nex year etc.. They both felt it will be found unconstitutional by the courts. Neither had a big interest in going out of their way enforcing it as they are carrying full magazines of ammo instead of the 7 round limit and they have not been exempt as of yet, so they themselves are in violation. Their best advice was when going to a range or sportmans club to drive legally, no speeding, stop for all traffic lights and stop signs, make a complete stop before turning right on a red light, etc. and they will have no reason to stop you. From what I gather they are kind of like taking a wait and see what happens attitude about the new laws.

[mete]

I came upon an interview of a Trooper but turned it off shortly because he , like the rest of us ,was too confused about it to explain it to the rest of us !! :rolleyes:
The idea to reduce our cartridges thus reducing our chance of survival is absurd and will be an often broken law.
It's a good fight ,keep at it !

[Mauserlance]

NY & CA. Successfully making criminals out of law abiding citizens.

It's only a matter of time before patriots emerge b

[44 AMP]

It's only a matter of time before patriots emerge..

The patriots are always with us. Right now, some of them are the ones fighting this in court. Others are the ones spreading the news.

[publius42]

Maxb49 said:

Thank you Brian. Sadly, everything Brian said is true. Tresmond Law will be publishing soon a full list of the consequences this bill has on gun owners.

Publishing where, may I ask?

The reason for my question is that I recalled liking the Tresmond Law page on Facebook a while back so I went over there to find the latest. I found a rather neglected page that was created last October. This is strange, because I quoted from the Tresmond Law Facebook page on another forum last April, before it existed. :confused:

I decided to go to the horse's mouth and went to:

http://www.tresmondlaw.com/

I got this:

403 - Forbidden Error
You are not allowed to access this address.

I make my living on the net and a disappearing/reappearing Facebook page and locked-down website are not the best ways to reach the public. Just sayin'. ;)

[Brian Pfleuger]

I'm very disappointed in the Tresmond team. When this first happened they were all over. Jim Tresmond called me several times and he or Max sent me a couple emails. Max was active here and updated us regularly.

Now, they've dropped off the face of the earth. I'm sure they got sick of all the nonlawyers telling them how to do their jobs but simple updates would be nice. I sent a PM to Max several months ago and got no response.

Their team posts occasionally on a NY forum but the latest are just cryptic sorts of "Yes we 're working but it's a secret." and even that is weeks ago.

[Al Norris]

I received the same treatment, Brian.

Some PM's, emails, a couple of calls. Then ... ... ... ... Crickets.

Since their work is being done within the State level courts, I can't even track what is happening, if anything.

[LancelotLink]

You can track New York Cases filed in State Supreme (Trial Level) court at this link.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcivil/FCASMain


Searching by attorney last name is usually sufficent

[publius42]

Even if the last name is b49? ;)

[Al Norris]

Lancelot, while the NYS system is much easier to navigate than before, it still tells me nothing. You still don't have access to the filed documents. I see some motions were made... Um, what motions? Doesn't say. Shows the appearance dates, including future appearances. Still doesn't tell me a lot.

Simply put, without more, there's really no way I can update my case list.