Webley No 4 (mkIV) new acquisition & info needed

[tree]

I just acquired a Webley revolver. My attempts this evening to identify it have been marginally acceptable. I hope you might be able to help. Web sites are minimal on this handgun.
Details: Stamped on Left side "Webleys No 4 476 CF"
Serial Number 11,XXX
6" barrel, top break, blued (very little) finish, fixed sigts (brass front Blade), rounded wood grip with lanyard ring, Single/double action.
On the right side is the proof mark which according to Blue Book of gun values indicates a London proof house ...British proof since 1904. ("NP" with a arm and "arabic style sword" above the NP).
The caliber is marked .455 on the right side. The following is also stamped on the right side "760 6 TONS"
There is an interesting knurled set screw in front of the cylinder just aft of the Webley marking. I saw a picture of a Mk IV that had a bayonet attached. It was a different style MkIV, but it appears this set screw could be for securing a bayonet. This set screw appears either highly polished or nickel plated.
The trigger is highly polished metal. The hammer may have been, although it looks like the overall finish of the revolver.

Two things appear mechanically wrong with the revolver:
the trigger does not reset after shooting. I can push it forward and then it will stay in the double action mode...but it does not spring back as I am sure it should or ought to.
In addition the cylinder extraction mechanism does not push out as the revolver is opened.
It appears I have a couple bad springs.

What can you help me with?
Let me know aproximate production date for this pistol.
Let me know if I am on track for identifying the revolver and some of its features.
Perhaps let me know of possible sources of supply for spare parts for this revolver.
Do you know of a good parts diagram for this revolver?

If it can help, I can take a digital photo of it and send to your email address. I can be reached at [email protected]

Thanks in advance for your help.
Tree.

[beemerb]

tree;
I have a little information for you.The mark 4 was adopter in 1915 and app 300,000 were made during WW1.Length 11.25 with a barrel length of 6 inchs.Weight 38 oz.
Cal is .455 and if it has been left alone should be a fair collectable.My book says it is worth from 140 in 60% to about 350 in 100%.
Not much but the best I can do.
By the way Gun Parts has parts for your model.site is--
http://www.gunpartscorp.com
Good luck

[Hard Ball]

It sounds like you have a large frame Webley revolver chambered for the .476 Centerfire cartridge used in the British Model 1880 service revolver.

[tree]

For archive purposes, I have received an identification about my Webley NO 4 from another individual on another site.

That gun is what is called the Webley-Wilkinson-Pryse revolver. They were
introduced about 1889 or 1890. The barrel latch is the Pryse type, but the
cylinder retainer and some other parts have been modified per the request of
Henry Wilkinson, who was a major supplier of swords (yes, that Wilkinson)
and also a large retailer of Webleys. So when he asked Webley's to make
some revolvers to his ideas, they complied. Unfortunately, I don't have any
information on the number made. Dowell's book shows a gun identical to
yours, but calls it the Model 3, so the Model 4 may have been some
variation. These were never adopted officially by the British government,
but were sold by Wilkinson as private arms to officers, so they may well
have seen combat. The .455/476 marking indicates that the cylinder could
accept both calibers; most .455 cylinders had a shoulder in the chamber
which prevented the seating of the bulbous bullet of the .476.

Webley's produced a bewildering variety of revolvers in that period,
out-doing even the recent Smith & Wesson "model of the week" phase. Also,
Webley revolvers were pirated in Belgium and as far away as the Khyber Pass.

Except that both are top-break, that revolver has little in common with the
.380 caliber Webley Mk IV, which was used as a substitute standard by the
British army in WWII, and also by many police agencies in the British
commonwealth and British areas of influence. The later gun has a stirrup
type barrel latch, with a single thumb operated lever on the left side of
the frame, and its cylinder removal system is entirely different.

You have an interesting revolver, and a quite uncommon one. The condition,
if I may judge by the photos, is not too good, which would reduce its value.
I honestly have no idea what the gun would be worth. None of the common
American books list it at all, and there is not too much interest in British
weapons in the U.S. except for the military weapons.

[4V50 Gary]

The Webley works much like the Colt Python. So, without having the benefit of examining the gun and watching it fail, I would hazard to guess that the Hand (Pawl) could be dragging on the frame or sideplate, or the Rebound Lever is dragging on the hammer or sideplate, or whether the sideplate is binding the action (check for shiny spots on the internal side of the sideplate). While the link below discusses how a Python works, the internal lockwork of a Webley is virtually identical. Check it out at: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20347

With regards to the problem of ejection, I'll have to look at some diagrams and ponder on it for a while.

[4V50 Gary]

Mounted within the frame (not the cylinder) is a spring and plunger which actuates the ejector. I suspect that the spring is worn or jammed in place by dirt or grease, thereby negating the work of the plunger. Alternatively, if broke it would simply lack any tension to actuate the plunger.

[James K]

Hi, Gary,

I am not sure I agree that the action of the Webley Mk VI or Mk IV are "much like the Python". It is true that both use a V spring to operate the hammer and rebound lever (Webley calls it the "mainspring auxiliary"). The latter acts both to return the trigger and actuate the pawl or hand. But the Webley rebound lever does not have a cam to operate the cylinder bolt as does the Colt. In the Mk VI, both the cylinder bolt and the cylinder stop are on the trigger; in the Mk IV, the cylinder bolt is a separate piece, cammed down by the front of the trigger. This is a little like the Enfield No. 2 or the S&W, but the bolt in the Mk IV only holds the cylinder in position at rest; the cylinder stop on the trigger actually stops cylinder rotation.

Actually, all this is irrelevant. The revolver in question is a Webley-Wilkinson-Pryse, which, like all the Pryse models, uses a separate "V" trigger spring in front of the trigger, and a separate spring on the pawl. The former spring seems to be broken or missing on the gun in question.

Webley's made almost literally hundreds of variations on dozens of themes. Further, these did not seem to succeed each other in any orderly manner. Old guns were kept in production long after a seemingly better model appeared on the scene. Old actions were revived for no apparent reason, or perhaps it was only that old guns in stock were sold at a late date. That is what makes Webley research so frustrating to me, and I have only scratched the surface.

Jim

[tree]

For the general information on this board...
Jim provided great assistance in helping to identify this gun. If not for him and John Sukey, I would still be thinking I had something different.
Jim, I am not certain of the spring in front of the trigger you mention.

I think I will send you a digital picture of the pistol and component parts I have.

Perhaps this will tell you what may be missing or broken.

Thanks again.

[Edited by tree on 01-03-2001 at 11:46 PM]

[4V50 Gary]

As usual, you're right about the lockwork being somewhat different. I'm examining the photographs and drawings in Bruce & Reinhart's, Webley Revolvers and the lockwork works similarly to the Python and merits discussion.

From what I can tell, pulling the trigger in the DA mode compresses the Trigger Spring, which is a classic "V" spring. As the trigger rotates forward, the Lifter engages the DA notch of the hammer. As the Pawl Spring tensions up against the Lifter, the Pawl moves forward and engages the cylinder ratchet. The Lifter also causes the Hammer to rotate rearward, causing the Hammer Strut to begin compression of the Mainspring. Pressure on the Sear Spring causes the Sear to rise and engage the SA notch on the Hammer. Continual pressure on the Trigger causes the Lifter to rotate the Hammer such that the Hammer disengages the Sear. By this time, the Pawl would have fully rotated the Cylinder and the "cylinder notch" integral to the Trigger should proceed from the frame and engage and secure the Cylinder. The Hammer drops and the gun discharges.

Release of the Trigger allows the "cylinder notch" to drop free of the Cylinder. The Trigger Spring pushes the Trigger back towards its position of rest, allowing the Pawl to withdrawl from the Cylinder Ratchet and the Lifter to reengage the Hammer. Pressure from the lower leg of the Mainspring pushes on the Hammer, causing it to "rebound" away from the spent cartridge.

From the photograph, while it appears that the Pryse Pattern had cylinder notches on the front of the cylinder and the design was suppose to have a "self-locking cylinder", I can't see how the parts interact with the forward "notch" on the Cylinder. Though there appears to be a small "cylinder stop" type projection on the trigger itself (like the early Colt DA revolvers) which engages the small notches found on the rear of the Cylinder, I'm unsure as to the forward notches seen on the photograph of Page 102 are suppose to interact with anything else.

BTW, unless I'm looking at the wrong diagrams, I believe that the ejector mechanism is affected by the spring & plunger I mentioned above.

As to why the Trigger may have a sticky return, I'd check the Pawl and its window for burrs. I'd also check the Lifter and the lifter notch on the Hammer. As this is a solid frame gun (no sideplate), also worth checking are the screws which serve as a pivot pin for the Trigger and the Pawl Pin (integral with the Pawl). Make sure that the Trigger swings freely when screwed into the frame. Check out that Trigger Spring too. Make sure its channel is free of any burrs and that the Spring doesn't catch on anything. Check the Trigger for burrs too which may cause it to catch on anything in the frame.

What is nifty is that you can see how this lockwork evolved into the later design which is more Python-like. It's a sensible evolution unlike the Colt (1889) DA revolver which preceded the Python's lockwork. My brother has one and it's a bear compared to the Python.

[tree]

The plunger extends down if I push it down, there by engaging the frame as the top break barrel/cylinder assembly is rotated down.
I was able to cycle the ejector a couple times.
However, the plunger did not stay extended, perhaps through the loss of tension in a spring or dirty spring. I am not sure what causes it to stay extended to permit engaging the revolver frame. I'll know better when Jim or John sends me a drawing of the revolver assembly showing parts. I am not certain as to how to disassemble this plunger assembly.
Gary's description of ejector problem sounds real plausable.
Thanks for the input.

[4V50 Gary]

Tree,

The plunger isn't suppose to keep the ejector extended. It extends it upon opening and when fully opened, the ejector drops down into its position of rest. That's the way it's designed to work.

Gary

[James K]

Hi, Gary,

Correct all the way. The cylinder bolt (that is the part that keeps the cylinder from turning while the hammer is at rest) is on the front of the trigger. When the trigger is released, the cylinder stop (at the rear of the trigger) is drawn out of the long cylinder cut and the bolt comes up to engage the small notch in the cylinder. This much is like the Mk VI Webley (the Mk IV and the Enfield No. 2 are different). The timing is critical, and if not perfect, the cylinder can rotate backwards. This will not happen in firing, though, because the hammer nose buried in the primer will hold the cylinder until the front bolt on the trigger reengages.

It ain't pretty, but it seemed to work.

The extractor is pushed up by an arm on the disc shaped extractor lever, just like the old S&W and other top breaks. The lever is actuated by the front of the frame, raising the extractor and throwing the empty (and loaded) cartridges free of the cylinder. The lever is pushed inward by the barrel coming into contact with the frame at the hinge. This frees the lever to rotate and let the extractor return to position impelled by its coil spring.

Jim