I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,

[aarondhgraham]

I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,
But they would have to prove themselves with a series of tight groups.

So here's the story,,,
I'm a mediocre rifle shot at best,,,
I believe all of my rifles can shoot a smaller group,,,
But I have no faith that I can adjust the sights to dead on the bulls eye.

A few years ago I was plinking away with a Henry Acu-Bolt,,,
At fifty yards off of a bench rest the best group I could do was about 3-4 inches.

So up comes this lady I know who is a much better shot than most people I know,,,
She throws five shots downrange that I could cover with a quarter,,,
They were a bit left of center so I adjusted the scope,,,
My resulting group wasn't tighter than before,,,
But it "clouded" more over the bulls eye.

I asked her about sighting in all of my rifles for me,,,
She chuckled and said she didn't have time,,,
I even offered to pay her for the service,,,
But she just wasn't interested.

I would gladly pay for the service,,,
But I've never seen or heard it being advertised.

Aarond

.

[Doyle]

You could always invest in a shooting sled.

[Erno86]

If you are willing to pay...I would invest in hiring a good shooting coach --- if not --- practice with a 22, till you feel confident enough to go on to the bigger bores. If you start to flinch...go back to the 22, and work out your problems.
Remember: breath, relax, press the trigger and follow through.

[spacecoast]

Aarond -

I believe there's an issue with your request in that one person's zero is not another's zero, it somewhat depends on where you feel comfortable and how your head fits/eyes line up behind the sights/scope. That obviously differs from person to person.

I started off like you, but I do much better than I used to with practice. Once those groups tighten a little you'll be able to get a good zero. Try to be very consistent with where/how you place your cheek on the rifle. One adjustment I made that helped is to lower my seat about 3 inches at the range. I am long-bodied (short-legged) for my height and I tend to hunch if I sit at the same level with respect to the bench as everyone else. Discomfort in the form on hunching is not consistent with getting a good, consistent cheek weld. Sitting up straight helps your breathing too.

[aarondhgraham]

My .22 rifles are about all I shoot in long guns,,,
I do have an H&R in .357 but I only use it on armadillos,,,
That rifle is scoped and I can pop the rascals out to 100 yards.

I have the Henry Acu-Bolt but am giving that to my young nephew this Christmas,,,
The rifle that I really love shooting is my new CZ 452 Military Trainer,,,
I know beyond a shadow of a doubt it will shoot tight groups,,,
I just need to get my 61 year old body and eyes trained.

Rimfire silhouette is the discipline I want to explore and play with,,,
I purchased a set of spinner targets (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Champion-.22-NRA-Silhouettes-Spinner-Target/7695943) to practice with,,,
I just wish I knew the rifle was dead on.

I haven't invested in any type of heavy shooting sled,,,
What I have is one of those MTI front rests,,,
It's made of plastic and is light in weight,,,
I could probably build one from wood.

I know at my age I'll never be an Annie Oakley,,,
It would give me more confidence though,,,
To know my rifle was zeroed perfectly.

No more whining,,,
I'll just practice more.

Aarond

.

[Rebel9793]

Caldwell Leadsled...Pain in the rear end to get used to at first, but Helps a bunch. takes the guess work out of things.

[hooligan1]

I wish that you lived closer, I would help you for nothing man. We have a nice range up here in KC, but I bet you have ranges closer to you.
I love to shoot, and it seems I do better the more I shoot, so its all good.:)

[Scorch]

Send me your rifles (or bring them to me), and the ammo you want them sighted in with, and I will take care of that for you. Of course, I charge my hourly shop rate to do it for my customers, but hey, nothing's free in life.

[Big Pard]

You are better off practicing and sighting in your own rifle. If you can only get 3-4" groups at 50 yds then you either have something loose or are flinching badly.

[geetarman]

Aarond,

I have a CZ 452 trainer and the rifle shoots great. I did put a scope on mine and it will shoot quarter size groups of 10 at 50 yards.

Make sure you don't rest the barrel on the bags. Only rest the stock. Try to get your spot close to the action screws in the bottom.

If you let someone else sight in your rifle, you will probably not have the same sight picture.

Let someone else shoot the rifle for groups but don't adjust anything until you have had a chance to shoot it yourself.

If there is a problem with the gun, an experienced shooter probably won't get decent groups either.

My gun was shifting point of impact almost 3 inches at 50 yards and it would happen between rounds at the range.

Not knowing if it was the scope or the gun, I had the on site gunsmith glass bed the rifle and do a trigger job on it.

I got it back last week and the rifle is shooting really good.

Maybe you are having the same issue with your gun. It might be worth a check.

[alex0535]

Consider practicing with a .22 LR or .17 HMR.

Basic shooting technique is exactly the same whether you are firing a .22 caliber rimfire or a large caliber center-fire.

I suggest reading Army Field Manual 23-10, the most important part of this literature for you to read is Chapter 3 Marksmanship. It is sniper training literature. Even though you are not a sniper, like i said earlier the process of shooting accurately is the same with .22LR as it is a much larger rifle.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-10/Ch3.htm

Using the tips provided in this manual. I produce groups smaller than a dime from 50 yards with a .17 HMR.

[Brian Pfleuger]

You don't need a Lead Sled unless you're dealing with nasty recoil. A couple small homemade sand bags would be entirely sufficient for "normal" guns. A thicker one for the front and a thinner one for the rear.

Or, a good steady bipod and your fist under the butt stock.

With sandbags, you'd have to be a stoned chimpanzee to shoot 3" groups at 50 yards with a scoped, capable gun.

And the zero thing, that doesn't apply to scopes. A zeroed scope is zeroed unless the shooter isn't doing it right. Any two shooters who use the scope correctly will hit the same spot. Not so with irons.

[Onward Allusion]

Aarond - Every scope/rifle combo will zero just a little differently with different shooters. Someone else's zero won't necessarily be your zero. It could be close or it could be way off.

[alex0535]

It may seem like a lot of trouble but it will help your technique if you keep a running log as you shoot. Say you have 5 shots in the rifle. Take a shot following proper technique as well as you can. Where did each shot hit in relation to the bullseye? If it didn't hit the bullseye, take a moment and try to figure out why it didn't hit the bullseye. Write down any ideas as to why the bullet did not go where you wanted it to go.

After a few hundred to a thousand times the whole process will be so ingrained that your groups will shrink probably shrink from inches at 50 yards to centimeters at 100.

Also try and figure out what the weight of pull is on the trigger of your rifle. A lighter one than the one that came on it will probably bring down the size of your groups.

[ROGER4314]

I agree that you need some coaching. It's pretty likely that nothing is wrong with your rifle. Let someone else shoot it to see how they do with it.

I wish that I could help you. I lived in Stillwater for about 7 years but I'm a Texan, now.

Flash

[JohnKSa]

Wish I lived closer. You wouldn't have to pay me, just pay my range fee. I would sight in any guns you bring even if it takes all day long--as long as you provide the ammo.

I helped a guy sight in his scoped .500 S&W pistol one time at the range. That was an experience. I'd never shot something like that from a rest before.

[Mr Budha]

I know how you feel, I with the others that say practice. I'm new to shooting but every time I go to the range I notice that I'm getting better and better. The one big thing I do is flinch with bigger caliber rifles. I switch in the middle to my .22 marlin and see exactly what I'm doing wrong. But like anything else, practice makes perfect.

[zukiphile]

Aaron, I am not very good either, but I consider sighting in a new rifle to be an important part of the process of getting to know the rifle and becoming comfortable with and confident in the zero.

It is tempting to be frustrated when one's performance is worse than another's. Some else is better than they are, and there are others worse than we are.

If you set your 452 up in a supported position, and really focus on your technique, you will get your best groups, and will not need to worry about the rifle being the weak link when you are shooting off hand.

I don't think you should view this opportunity as an obstacle.

[geetarman]

I don't think you should view this opportunity as an obstacle.

How true!!!

[aarondhgraham]

I hear what you guys are saying,,,
I do need more practice with my rifles,,,
It would simply be reassuring to know they are sighted in properly.

It's like when I bought a muscle car back in the 60's,,,
Immediately after the break-in period oil change,,,
I spent money to have it professionally tuned,,,
Then had a proven driver 1/4 mile it.

Then I had a target goal I could measure my own performance against.

I guess my doubts come from not having any idea of,,,
How close to the bullseye the sights were adjusted at the factory,,,
I've had knowledgable shooters say they should be exact and some say just the opposite.

For the time being on my CZ-452,,,
I'm going to resist making any adjustments,,,
Until my groups get much tighter than they are now.

Thanks for the good advice,,,
I'll take it to heart and master this rifle,,,
I have 5,000 rounds of Remington .22 just for this task.

Aarond

.

[Bart B.]

One does not have to be a "crack" shot to sight in a rifle. It can easily be done if the shooter is able to do one very simple thing. Call their shots.

Calling ones shots is the ability to keep ones eyes open when the rifle fires and see where the sights are on the target at that time. If they're aiming at a 3 inch round bullseye at 50 yards using a scope and the retucule appears to be high and right of the bullseye center when the round fires, that's where the shot is "called."

Now look where the bullet hole is at. If the bullet hole is dead center in the black bullseye, the scope's got to be adjusted 'cause the rifle didn't shoot that bullet high and right of the bullseye's center. So move the scope's adjustments so move impact up and to the right.

Now fire another shot, call it, then see where the bullet hole goes relative to where that shot was called. If the rifle didn't "shoot to call," adjust the scope again, load another round and start over.

Keep doing this until the bullet hole appears exactly (or very close to) where you called the shot.

The objective in this procedure is to get the rifle to shoot where it's aimed. After this is done, you can practice your aiming so you'll shoot closer to the desired point of bullet impact.

Period.

Best wished in your new endeavour.

[alex0535]

Are you using iron sights or a scope? Your rifle is available with both from factory so its worth asking.

I would be pretty ok with a couple of inches with iron sights. If you are using iron sights, and have less than perfect vision. You will group better with a red dot or reflex sight than iron sights. Its pretty cool stuff, the dot appears to move depending on the position it is viewed from but a good one should put the bullet wherever the red dot is.

I would suggest putting some sort of optic on it, whether it is a red dot/reflex or a decent quality scope if it doesn't have one already.

Also it looks like your model has an adjustable trigger weight. Drop it down and your groups will improve if you use proper technique. It can probably be reduced considerably but i don't know the range it can be adjusted. They usually come from the factory so high that accuracy is impeded.

[geetarman]

I guess my doubts come from not having any idea of,,,
How close to the bullseye the sights were adjusted at the factory,,,
I've had knowledgable shooters say they should be exact and some say just the opposite.


Aarond,

The day I took my 452 out the first time, I set the sights at 25 yards and it shot SO good, I moved them to 200 yards and hit the popper 3 times out of 5 tries.

THAT is what prompted me to add a scope.

Take a little time with this rifle. . .it WILL make a believer out of you. Those guns are that good.

I am REALLY tempted to by a bull barrel and find out what can be done when you really put your mind to it.

CZ has been around a while and they really have flown under the radar. The guns are really overlooked and that is a shame.

[kraigwy]

Someone else zeroing your rifle means its zeroed for them.

A lead slede zero wont be a hunting zero.

You dont have to shoot itty bitty groups to zero your rifle.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Set your target out to the distance you want it zeroed.

Shoot 10 to 20 rounds, the more the better, dont adjust your sights for this string.

Take your target and draw a cross on it. from 12 to 6 oclock, and 9 to 3 oclock.

Count the bullets in each quarter. Ajust your sights from the high number of shots to the low number of shots.

Now shoot another string. Draw the cross like above, count the holes in each quarter.

Keep doing this until you have the exact number of shots in each quarter.

I don't care how large or small your group is, your rifle is zeroed,, FOR YOU.

Do this using the position you plan on shooting, the most common hunting position is kneeling so sight it in kneeling.

This works with rifle, shotgun or pistols. It works for everyone, regardless of how good or bad you shoot.

[langenc]

If you cant sight it in Im not sure you should be shooting it....

Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Gel some downlaoded ammo and shoot more or a different rifle.

Lighten the trigger. Most shooters could shoot better w/ a lighter trigger.

I was shooting a Savage 99 I bought. Trigger is at least 6#. I dont shoot it well. I cant seem to find a smith to work on it. No parts available should something get screwed up.

[Bart B.]

langenc claims:Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

With the single exception of someone's eye being off center in a scope's optical axis and that scope not focused at the target range, all the light from the target through the sights (scope and iron) is the same for everyone.

It's physically impossible for different eyes to see the relationship of the sights to the target for a given alignment with each other.

If you're referring to the situation when two people use different sight settings for the same rifle and ammo at a target, that's caused by each person holding the rifle differently. The rifle's movement during recoil while the bullet goes down the barrel will be different.

[HiBC]

I will second the idea of "calling the shot".
What that amounts to is getting a mental picture of exactly what the sights looked like on the target when the gun recoiled.

From that,you predict where your hit will be on the target.It is an excersize in focus and concentration.

One important benefit,it insures your eyes are open as the trigger breaks.

Very often,a bit of recoil anticipation,or noise anticipation occrs with that last part of tripping the trigger.Calling the shot is a way to cure it.You might try letting a friend load your rifle,and one time leaving it empty by surprise.That can show you if you are flinching a bit.

If you are using iron sights,realize you must focus on the sights,and concentrate on keeping the sight picture as perfect as possible.

[RaySendero]

aarondhgraham wrote:

I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,
But they would have to prove themselves with a series of tight groups.

So here's the story,,,
I'm a mediocre rifle shot at best,,,

.....

Aarond


Aarond,

Save your money - Doesn't make sense to have someone sight in a rifle for you if you can't shoot it accurately.

[spacecoast]

Good advice from Kraig, it's more difficult (and less reassuring) with open groups obviously but still valid.

[aarondhgraham]

Count the bullets in each quarter. Ajust your sights from the high number of shots to the low number of shots.

Okay, that's practical advice a person can use. :)

Save your money - Doesn't make sense to have someone sight in a rifle for you if you can't shoot it accurately.

Wouldn't you like to know that the sights on your rifle were zeroed?

If you cant sight it in Im not sure you should be shooting it....

That's kind of harsh,,,
Are you saying I should quit shooting?

Are you using iron sights or a scope?

Hello alex0535,,,
Yes, it's a valid question,,,
I did forget to state that in my OP.

I'm using iron sights on this rifle,,,
I have no problem zeroing a scoped rifle,,,
I have a H&R Handi-Rifle in .22 with a Bushnell Banner scope,,,
I got it zeroed very nicely at 50 yards and hit clay pigeons at 100 yards.

It's the 61 year old eyes that are having trouble with iron sights,,,
And I need to stay with irons for this endeavor as rimfire silhouette excludes optics.

I just remember way back in time when my brother-in-law bought a new .22 rifle for my sister,,,
She was so frustrated because after two boxes of ammo she still hadn't hit one Coke can at about 35 yards.

Later on my Dad (who was a phenomenal shot with a .22) shot at a paper target with that gun,,,
It turned out that at that distance the rifle was hitting about 10" to one side,,,
A few taps with a hammer drifted the sight into proper zero.

It's like calibrating any piece of equipment before using it,,,
I would feel my practice time is better spent with a calibrated rifle.

I will try what Kraigwy suggested this weekend,,,
And then work towards tightening my groups with practice.

Thanks gentlemen.

Aarond

.

[Onward Allusion]

Bart B.

langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.


Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

The sight picture doesn't change but the person shooting the gun does.

Two people shooting the same gun can get two sets of consistent results because they may:
- hold the gun differently
- perceive recoil differently
- and yes, even see the target differently through a scope because of the way they are holding/resting it.

I have experienced this with handguns and long-guns between family members. One person's zero with a scope may not be another's. There's usually a one or two click adjustment. This is doubly true with handguns/iron sights and those who are cross-eye dominant.

Maybe this is a better way of saying it...
It's not the sights but the way the firearm is held that requires a different zero with the same firearm.

[Bart B.]

Onward Allusion's comment:Two people shooting the same gun can get two sets of consistent results because they may:
- hold the gun differently
- perceive recoil differentlyI've shot on and coached long range rifle teams with both aperture front and rear, service rifle aperture at the rear and post up front and scoped rifles. When "hot gunning" a single rifle among all of us, we all had different zeros on its sights. Each man on the gun set the sights for his own zero when he went on the firing line. Sometimes there was as much as 1.5 MOA spread in windage and/or elevation across all four of us on the team with the same rifle and ammo.

Regarding Onward's last line:- and yes, even see the target differently through a scope because of the way they are holding/resting it.Several times, I've proved this is also a myth. Prove it to yourself, if you dare.

Putting a collimator in the muzzle for scope sights (whose eyepiece is focused on and parallax free on the reticule and objecive lens is focused on the target so it's parallax free on the reticule) or a false bullseye in front of the front sight for irons or aperture sights, then having folks adjust the W and E knobs to align the reticule or sights on the target ended up with everyone being within 1/4 MOA of each other. When they repeated the setup, they would be within 1/4 MOA of their last one. Had to prove this many times to folks who, like so many, think each of us humans look through sights (metallic or glass) different ways. People don't realize that the light from the target passing by or through the sights to the human eye doesn't change from person to person. The light doesn't know where it's going nor where it'll stop.

[Brian Pfleuger]

People using iron sights could use them differently, 6 oclock hold versus center hold for example, but any two people who correctly use the same hold will hit the same spot.

Scopes are even simpler. If you're looking through it without parallax and you have your eye correctly centered in the optic, you can't help but hit the same spot. Optics only work one way.

[JimPage]

Arrond: the best thing for you to do is buy as much ammo as you can and shoot a lot. If you start flinching, stop for couple days, then shoot some more. That's the best way to learn to shoot. A good coach can help too. But you are getting no where if someone else sights in your rifle, you will still have large groups.

Sighting in does not affect group size, it only affects where the group appears on the target. Group size is affected by the skill of the shooter. So you need to develop your skill. All else doesn't matter.

[Onward Allusion]

Forgetting about what I've experienced with my boys and a couple of little old 10/22's & Marlin 25's at 25 & 50 yards. . . ;)

Here's something to ponder. . .<gotta love the Interweb>

http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/ZeroDiffer.htm

Question about scopes being the same for different people. Scopes are all set at some range for parallex on less they are adjustable. if you are shoting at the range for which they are set then the zero should be the same for anyone, but once you move to distances other than where the parallex is set for people will have different zeros because of different ways of holding the weapon" where thier eye is relative to the scope". People who have the same shooting hold and have little difference in thier distance from their eye to their cheek have little difference in where thier eye comes to rest relative to the scope and therefore have closer zeros.

Jeff Cooper <Lo [email protected]>
MEMphis, TN USA - Friday, November 27, 1998 at 15:18:46 (EST)

[Edward429451]

That was cold, Scorch. Aaron, 80% of marksmanship is trigger control & followthrough. You have to learn to call your shots, as was noted. Even a crappy trigger can deliver good groups if you're paying enough attention to call your shots. Trigger pull and calling your shots go together. Pay attention to your trigger pull but no so much that you quit seeing the sight picture. Let your eye control your trigger finger. As the sights come into alignment, trigger pressure is increased. As the sights drift out of alignment, trigger pressure stops but is not released. Sights come back into alignment, trigger pressure is increased...until the shot breaks, and it's at that moment that you have to be very aware of sight alignment and where your sights are...followthrough. That's how you call your shots.

If you was high left when the shot broke, call it. High left. You probably will lose the sight under recoil but you was paying attention to where it was when it broke. When I was just learning this, I thought I was learning trigger control (I was) but I was really learning to call my shots.

Of course if you seen it it high left and the strike was high right (and nothing else happened like flinch, jerking, you blink, etc.) then it is not zeroed and needs adjustment. You'll learn to zero your rifle while you're learning to call your shots.

[Deja vu]

My eldest son struggled with flinching for a long time. Even a 22 would make him jump... What did I do? I got him really good hearing protection. It worked well. Noise is worse for flinching than recoil is (in my opinion)

[Bart B.]

One other thing that most (yes, most; about 80% from what I've observed) folks do that causes inaccurate shooting is how they use their trigger finger. Keeping ones aiming eye open when the arm fires is also important 'cause if you don't do this, you'll never be able to call your shot.

First off, the jerk, quick-pull or yank ones finger drives the trigger back hard against its stop. That's going to put enough force on the firearm to move it's alignment with the intended target away to someplace else. It's all a subconcious mental process that starts when the sights are well aligned and aimed at the desired point of bullet impact and the instant things look perfect, "NOW" is the mental command to the trigger finger to make it shoot the arm immediately.

Secondly, it doesn't matter whether the trigger was pulled as a result of that subconcious NOW thought that jerked the trigger back, or, a perfect gentle squeeze that makes the arm fire somewhat unexpectedly. As soon as the shooter's subconcious senses feels the trigger break, they flick their trigger finger off of it. I think this is based on ones safety issues and they subconciously don't want their finger on the trigger any more than what's needed. Problem is, that "FINGER FLICKING" is so fast, it puts enough counter force on the arm that it moves off the desired place to put the bullet where it's intended to go. "Follow through" is the term that referrs to the shooter keeping their trigger finger all the way back until they stop moving from recoil. Doing this ensures there'll be no disturbing the arm's position while the firing pin (or hammer) falls, fires the cartridge and the bullet goes through the barrel. After the bullet's left the barrel, one can move whatever body parts they want to 'cause it'll not effect that "perfect shot" in any way.

Had a guy on a military rifle team who was nororious about jerking and finger flicking. But he didn't believe me saying he had this problem. He could not shoot his Garand very accurately in spite of its capability to hold 2/3 MOA at 600 yards with a good lot of M118 match ammo. Best he could do was keep most of his shots inside the 36 inch eight ring on the 600 yard target. So I decided to prove to him that while he could hold and aim his M1 very, very well, he just didn't have good trigger control.

Had him lay down slung up in prone on the 600 yard line, he would single load the Garand, then get into position but his trigger finger was not on the trigger. I layed down beside him then put my right hand thumb behind the trigger guard and my trigger finger on the trigger. After he breathed deep a few times and held his breath, the rifle was then held very still on target. I'd just gently squeeze the trigger firing the shot about 10 seconds after he held his breath. Two shots got a good zero on target. Then he (we?) shot 10 shots for the training session. All ten shots were in the 12 inch ten ring; 4 in the 6 inch X ring. He could not believe he shot that well. And he finally realized he was a finger-jerker and finger-flicker. After some ball and dummy practice, he finally became the best marksman on the 4-man team I was training.

[Mobuck]

The comment about no two people having the same zero is bunk. Take this for what it's worth. My older brother was about as different from me as could be. He was left handed, about 6'1", 250-270#. I'm right handed, 5'9", 150-165#. I sighted his rifles in all the time and he then fired a couple of shots to confirm-into the same group.
I used to do sight-ins for pay when I was younger. $5-10 plus ammo was normal. I've shot a LOT of different rifles and never had anyone find a discernable difference in zero. A hard kicking rifle may show some vertical dispersion if a second shooter doesn't resist the recoil the same as the first. That's why a rifle zeroed with a lead sled won't give the same POI when fired from the shoulder.

[The Long Shot]

You said you had a .357 rifle. Practice dry firing that at home. Put it over the back of a couch, on a cushion on the table, etc. Practice the fundamentals. When you get good at the trigger pull, put a coin on the barrel and pull the trigger. If the coin stays put the trigger pull is good. Iron sights can be hard to use at times. If you can, get good with a scope, or a red dot. Either will work ar 50 yards with a .22. When you get consistent good results with a scoped rifle, practice with irons. You would want to do it in that order to take all of the variables out, so you know what you're doing wrong. Good luck.

[MLeake]

With irons, how you hold the rifle or how you look through the sights can certainly affect zero. This is why, in military courses of fire, we zeroed our own.

A consistent hold with your own rifle will help. The technique I was taught with the M16 / AR15 is to touch the tip of my nose against the charging handle when I achieve cheek weld. My sights are zeroed for me, using that technique. Would they be dead on for somebody with a shorter or longer nose, or differently spaced eyes? Perhaps not.

[44 AMP]

langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

With the single exception of someone's eye being off center in a scope's optical axis and that scope not focused at the target range, all the light from the target through the sights (scope and iron) is the same for everyone.

It's physically impossible for different eyes to see the relationship of the sights to the target for a given alignment with each other.


If its a myth, then why have I seen, and experienced people having different points of impact using the same sight settings?

Because we hold the gun differently at the moment of firing? Or something else?

Two examples from my personal expierence;
#1) back when my Dad and I were shooting, all his handguns were sighted for him, center hold. When I shot them, in order to hit center, I had to hold 6 o'clock.
#2) myself and a friend, each shooting a different bolt action rifle, trading rifles for alternate shots. CONSISTANTLY 1/2" difference in point of impact @100yds. He would hit dead center with his rifle, and 1/2" high with mine, and the same for me, dead on with mine, 1/2" high with his. Both rifles wearing 3x9 scopes.

Now, if we weren't looking through the scopes differently, then what was happening?

I've sighted in rifles and handguns for other people, and have always told them that it would be "on" for me, but might not be for them. And that is exactly what has always happened. Sometimes, my sight in has been perfect for them, and other times, it has been close, but not dead on for them, but dead on for me. IF its a myth, then why does it happen?

[Bart B.]

44 Amp asks about the comment stating everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently and my counter that it's a myth:If its a myth, then why have I seen, and experienced people having different points of impact using the same sight settings?

Because we hold the gun differently at the moment of firing? Or something else?The reason different people get different points of impact with the same sight settings is as I explained before; we all don't hold the firearm the exact same way. The firearm recoils in different amounts and in different directions while the bullet's going down the barrel.

Our eyes all will see the same sight picture with scopes as well as with open or aperture front and rear sights when they're aligned the same way on the target. The exact same thing happens when a digital camera mounted on a sturdy tripod and focused at some object and its perfectly centered on something. Everyone behind it looking at the image on the LCD display sees it the same regardless of where they are behind it. That image on the camera's sensor is done exactly the same way our eyes focus it on our retina; there ain't one bit of difference. Every one behind that camera will see exactly the same image and everything appears the same.

Those not believing this might consider asking their favorite eye doctor about it. If those professionals don't convince one otherwise, then maybe those disbelievers should explain why rays of light travel through sights differently for different people and what laws of physics change to make that happen depending on the person looking through the sights.

A good way to see just the differences in how one uses their trigger hand on a rifle is to mount a laser pointer on it adjusted to put the spot at the point of aim. Then have someone watch them dry fire the rifle and see what direction and how much it moves when the firing pin falls. Most folks are pretty surprised at how much they jerk the rifle off its point of aim from where it was just before the firing pin fell. Then see what happens when several people do this with the same rifle.

[bipe215]

Aarond,


I put a Timney trigger in my 452 and it tightened things up a bit. The factory trigger on mine was a little rough.

Steve

[aarondhgraham]

I've resisted doing any modifications to the rifle as yet,,,
I haven't even tried to adjust the trigger on it,,,
It's already so much nicer than my others.

I want to tighten up any of the human elements first,,,
I'm trying to not be the one who throws money at a problem.

Except ammo of course,,,
I'll spend as much on that as needed.

But thanks for the suggestion,,,
I wasn't aware Timney made a trigger for it.

Aarond

.

[zukiphile]

A couple of low cost improvements available from a fellow, I think his name was Eric Brooks:

- a lower weight spring for the trigger, and

- an aperture to replace the rear u-notch.

When I was looking, I think you could get both for $20.

[phil mcwilliam]

Arrond, your 61 & having trouble shooting with iron sights - buy a scope for your CZ & start enjoying the potential accuracy of this fine .22. Everyones eyes deteriorate at some stage & you've done better than some if youre still shooting iron sights in your 60's.
As for having other people sight your rifles in for you, I can relate a story of some 25 years ago. My brother & I went to a rifle range together. He was most impressed with his scoped Marlin 39A, putting 5 shots through the same hole at 50 yards shooting over sandbag rest. I could also put 5 shots through the same hole at 50 yards with my brothers Marlin 39A, BUT the 2 groups were over 1 inch apart. My brother is left handed & I'm right handed, maybe this caused the difference , but it sure highlighted the fact many years ago to me, that 2 people can definately shoot to different zero with the same rifle.

[eric75]

While I admire the effort to improve by practicing a lot, you must also make an effort to avoid reinforcing bad habits. If you want to shoot well, it is worthwhile to have someone teach you. It takes less than a hundred repetitions to form a habit, it takes thousands to break one.

Find a local club that teaches marksmanship fundamentals.
Read books or military field manuals that are intended to tech people how to shoot.
Attend an Appleseed where the volunteers spend a weekend teaching you how to shoot.
Take a training class at a facility that caters to the customer experience.

Don't obsess over your zero. Just circle your group with a marker and adjust so the point of aim is roughly in the middle. I don't think a deer is going to wait around to see if the statistical center of a large number of shots is where it should be.

As you eliminate one bad habit at a time, the position and shape of your groups will change. Learn the relationship between the clicks on your sights and the number of inches on the target, then adjust as often as you need.

And focus your eye on the front sight.

[spacecoast]

There sure is a lot of going back and forth about whether one shooter's zero is the same as another's, I'm glad I brought it up ;) I do know that the Army requires each soldier to zero his/her own rifle, if those zeros were all the same I don't think there would be any point. They would just assign one soldier to take care of all the rifles in the unit, right?

Aarond, I think what you are really asking for is confirmation that your rifle is capable of shooting groups of X size, that would set your mind at ease that your groups of larger than X size are your responsibility and not the rifle's.

[oryx]

Proper Sight alignment and trigger control is critical with iron sights. While I'm not going into every detail about how to properly align sights and manipulate the trigger without moving the gun, there is one other thing I did not see on the topic when skimming through the responses. Front sight Focus.

When you are shooting iron sights it is critical that your focus is on the front sight rather than on the target. Get your position squared away and solid, keep a natural point of aim so you are not muscularly forcing your sights onto the target, align the sights with the target, control your breathing, FOCUS on the front sight and gently but deliberately manipulate the trigger.

Target focus will produce erratic groups that will drive you nuts and make you question every thing. Practice will reinforce it and shrink the groups. I have seen it many times with experienced competitive shooters who know how to shoot and are doing everything else correct.

[Bart B.]

Mobuck says:The comment about no two people having the same zero is bunk. Take this for what it's worth. My older brother was about as different from me as could be. He was left handed, about 6'1", 250-270#. I'm right handed, 5'9", 150-165#. I sighted his rifles in all the time and he then fired a couple of shots to confirm-into the same group.Well, if folks do that with apparent succes, I doubt they're able to shoot no worse than about 1 MOA with the sights used. Especially when a couple of shots have less than a 20% chance of represent where the zero's at. If you're both shooting about 2 MOA or thereabouts, it is quite possible that the same sight settings will seem to work.

With a rifle and ammo capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and both shooters able to call shots within 1/3 MOA of exact, then you'll see the difference in sight settings.

[jimmythegeek]

You'll get coaching and some history lessons and they'll help YOU zero YOUR rifle. They brought me all the way up to mediocre, and that's an accomplishment close to the Moon landings in degree of difficulty.

www.appleseedinfo.org
Looks like there's one about 3 hours away from Stillwater, in Centerton, AR on Dec 15-16
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=27040.0

Typically folks shoot .22LR semi-autos, but you can shoot what ya got, and your CZ Trainer would be fine. I qualified with a CZ-455. Just practice working the bolt in the time it takes to inhale and exhale, you don't have to go any faster than that. You need at least 2 magazines, and practice changing them seated and prone. They gave me lots of advice for running a bolt action in this thread: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=26206.0

[Picher]

As a gunsmith, I've sighted in at least a thousand rifles for others over the years and have never had anyone come back and say it was wrong for them.

At a turkey shoot, four of us used the same rifle to fire one round each and all of us hit the 1" target center on separate shooting rounds, winning 6 turkeys that day. We were shooting prone over a log at 100 yards and the rifle was a .22-250, Rem 700 ADL, 2-8X scope, shooting 55 gr, Sierra Semi-point handloads.

At another shoot, on a bet, my wife shot a perfect pinwheel with the same rifle; her one and only shot in competition, 7 months pregnant, laying on an angle, due to her belly. It wasn't a pretty scene, when other wives were asking her to teach their husbands how to shoot. Most of the guys never returned the next week, so they never held turkey shoots again.

[Bart B.]

Picher sez:As a gunsmith, I've sighted in at least a thousand rifles for others over the years and have never had anyone come back and say it was wrong for them.

At a turkey shoot, four of us used the same rifle to fire one round each and all of us hit the 1" target center on separate shooting rounds, winning 6 turkeys that day. We were shooting prone over a log at 100 yards and the rifle was a .22-250, Rem 700 ADL, 2-8X scope, shooting 55 gr, Sierra Semi-point handloads.

At another shoot, on a bet, my wife shot a perfect pinwheel with the same rifle; her one and only shot in competition, 7 months pregnant, laying on an angle, due to her belly. It wasn't a pretty scene, when other wives were asking her to teach their husbands how to shoot. Most of the guys never returned the next week, so they never held turkey shoots again.

Well, if folks do that with apparent succes, I doubt they're able to shoot no worse than about 1 MOA with the sights used. Especially when 1 or 2 shots have less than a 10% chance of represent where the zero's at. If you're both shooting about 2 MOA or thereabouts, it is quite possible that the same sight settings will seem to work.

With a rifle and ammo capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and both shooters able to call shots within 1/3 MOA of exact, then you'll see the difference in sight settings.

Picher, I think your own and your customers/relatives accuracy standards and levels ain't enough to discriminate the small zero differences that exist between people and a given rifle and ammo. No slam intended, but we all don't have the same levels of marksmanship.

PS: Most of the top prone competitors shoot with their bodies on an angle; that's been happening for over a century.

[Picher]

I agree with you Bart. Anyone who can shoot 1/4 min. should be able to sight-in his/her own rifle to meet their own standards.

When I sight-in rifles for customers, I ask them if they have any preferences for zero or maximum zero range. If not, I'll use my computer ballistics program to find the best compromise zero for the distances most people of their capability are likely to shoot a deer, etc. and the rifle/cartridge/bullet weight they'll be using, etc. (They will usually provide the ammo, but if not, we'll agree on the ammo to be used.)

I also try to simulate the conditions they will encounter in the field, often resting the rifle on my off-hand on the front rest, to simulate an offhand shot. Sometimes it makes quite a difference in POI, especially if the barrel isn't free-floated. If, after being warned, someone rests their barrel instead of the forend, that's their problem.

[Husqvarna]

I know my brother and me shots to different zeros in several rifles we have sighted in, he can group them but they are of.

this is me being a LH and he being a RH to so the twist of the barrel factors in?

He made his own scout rifle to but neither me nor my father can get that to shoot straight but my bro keeps it sub moa

[Bart B.]

Husqvarna wonders:I know my brother and me shots to different zeros in several rifles we have sighted in, he can group them but they are of.

this is me being a LH and he being a RH to so the twist of the barrel factors in?I think its caused by the way the rifle recoils when shot by lefties and righties. Rifles tend to move to the right before the bullet leaves the barrel when shot by right handed people; to the left for left handed ones. So, if the rifle's sighted in by a right handed person, a left handed one will need to make a windage correction to the left on the sights.

[sirdiealot]

maybe and just throwing this out...but bore sight it.....see if your sight pic is going toward the red dot....that might tell you if your sights are off

[Bart B.]

I've put optical collimators in several 1/3 MOA rifles well zeroed at 100 yards. None of their sights (scope, iron nor apeture) aligned at a point below the collimator's reticule equal to sight height above bore plus bullet drop.