Reason why its hard to believe competition doesn't count in SD Situations

[kraigwy]

“He’s always been a marksman,” his wife said. “He shoots in competitions"

Apparently the 57 year old was filling wife's shopping list when two robbers tried to hold up the store, Manager warns customers, but grandpa, draws fires twice, hitting twice, killing one of the suspects.

It's dern hard to convince me that his competition shooting didn't add to this guys abilities with a hand gun.

Story:

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-08-28/story/customer-kills-gunman-during-jacksonville-robbery-attempt

[PH/CIB]

While I still defend the two policeman in the Empire State Building Shooting and while I posted in an old thread about Training trumps Experience that I prefered experience, I will agree that everyone should get the best training they can, and I am not so sure that it should not be mandated.

The key to your thread to me is not only training but the key word competition, it is impossible to equal the stress and adrenalin rush of a firefight except to be in one with bullets coming and going, but at least competition adds stress to the equation.

The other reason competition is so important, IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun etc. is that in all the ranges I have gone to, for safety reasons they do not allow drawing from a concealed holster or an open carry holster and shooting or shooting from different body positions, prone for instance. You can still shoot one handed and practice with both hands as I know you advocate, and still shoot kneeling by the bench or behind and around the shooters bench, but that is about it.

[rjrivero]

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations - we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

[kraigwy]

it is impossible to equal the stress and adrenalin rush of a firefight except to be in one with bullets coming and going,

And Muscle Memory trumps stress and adrenalin rush. To react without muscle memory requires thinking something trough.

Muscle memory requires no forethought except to recognize the danger. The reaction is done subconsciously IF YOU HAVE DEVELOPED THE PROPER MUSCLE MEMORY.

You can't go out and develop muscle memory by experience. Who would want to, but you can by good practice and competition.

Ask your self why SEALs or Special Forces are so much better then an ordinary infantryman. Hard training followed by more training. (I get tired just reading about SEAL training).

There is an old Army saying, "You fight like you train".

I realize there are ranges where you can't practice your draw (never been to one my self) but that is no excuse. 80% of my draw practice is either with a blue plastic training gun or dry firing with my revolvers.

I practice bullseye to keep sharp on my fundamentals.

Certainly beats doing nothing.

[ltc444]

Well said Kraigway.

I remember the first time I drew my service weapon during a felony stop. The pistol appeared in my hand sites were aligned on the subject without conscious thought. My partner, who fancied himself a quick draw, had not drawn his weapon.

This happened because I trained and trained, ran scenarios through my head on every situation I could think off.

Plus thousands of rounds in Bullseye competition.

[Japle]

If a shooter has been successful in IDPA / USPSA / Steel Challenge competition and has successfully hunted big game with a handgun, he’s likely to be pretty damn dangerous in a gunfight.

[Chuckusaret]

You can't go out and develop muscle memory by experience. Who would want to, but you can by good practice and competition.

Some of us have had the opportunity to develope muscle memory by experience but still must renforce it with continued practice/training. Hopefully we will never have the opportunity to put it to use.

[raimius]

Who has argued that competitions are not in some way helpful?
The general argument is that competitions are not tactical training.

[Deaf Smith]

If all other factors are equal, yes training and skill help.

Always has been that way, just ask the USMC and Army if their training was not a give factor in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that is also why they now spend so much time on marksmanship. They did a 180 degree turn from the Vietnam 'spray-n-pray' to precise marksmanship (and the optics help to!)

Yes, skill is not everything but again, but all other things being equal, it does help.

Deaf

[JohnKSa]

An interesting perspective on the stress of an actual gunfight vs the stress of competition from someone who has seen both.

In the April/May 2012 issue of Handguns, there was an article by James Tarr entitled Hot Shots. The article was about Ted Puente, the back to back winner of USPSA Multi-gun National Championships in 2006 & 2007 (Iron Sight division), and winner of the Limited category at the 2009 USPSA Handgun National Championships.

Tarr pointed out that during his 18 years of service with the Milwaukee PD, Puente had the misfortune to have been involved in an “on-the-job shooting”. Puente was quoted in the column as saying:

“When I’ve had to use force for real, that pressure you endure during an actual shooting is probably one-quarter of what you endure during competition. People don’t believe me, but you’re just reacting in a life or death situation; you don’t have time to think about it.

“When you’re competing basically, you’re betting a million dollars <and> 10 years of your life because ... all the last 10 years of preparation are put on this one stage. ...it makes it really hard.”

[kraigwy]

A perfect and relevant perspective

[WC145]

There's a sign on the wall of practically every boxing gym in America that reads "THE MORE YOU TRAIN, THE LESS YOU BLEED". Perhaps they should start hanging them at shooting ranges as well.

I've been shooting IDPA and action pistol for a few years now (usually with my duty gun and gear) and that extra trigger time has made a big difference in my overall gun handling skills. I'm faster on the draw, faster on target, more accurate, and more confident, even with my patrol rifle. I gauge myself against other officers that I've trained and qualified with for years, good shooters but none of whom compete, and where we used to be close in time and accuracy, I'm now much faster and more accurate. Also, a lot of guys are good shots but have trouble with their draw, mag changes, and clearing malfunctions, I don't really have to think about those things, the repetitive practice has made them second nature.

[Double Naught Spy]

Reason why its hard to believe competition doen't count in SD Situations

The reason it isn't hard to believe is because of all the folks who state that you never know how you will do in battle. If you can never know how you will do, then you can't know if competition (the right kind) would be beneficial or not).

Of course, lots of people who have never been in competition shoot bad guys multiple times just fine. For all we know at this point, the shooting distance was across the counter or just a few feet, something where the benefits of pistol competition likely would not have made an iota of difference.

I noticed that the article didn't say how many times the guy fired, just that the suspect was hit twice.

[BlueTrain]

Could someone explain to me how you're betting a million dollars in a competition?

Likewise, Mr Spy, you ought to retract that statement about people who don't compete doing just fine and how if you shoot across the counter or from just a few feet, competition doesn't make any difference. If I suggested such a thing, people would jump all over me.

[kraigwy]

Could someone explain to me how you're betting a million dollars in a competition?

It's marketing, if you are selling a product and looking for a candidate to market your product, who you gonna give the million dollar contract to, the winner or the looser.

You don't see losers on Wheaties Boxes.

As in the story posted, the competition had this on his mine, would the contract go to him if he looses? This had all the time before the match and before each and ever stage to work on his mind. This could very will distract from muscle memory.

However, on the street, an incident just happens, no time to think about it, just time to act. With out thinking and worrying about it, there is no mental block interfering with muscle memory.

Any one who says there is no such thing as match pressure, never shot a match.

I can give my own example. Lets look and the EIC program. To get a distinguished badge you have to shoot a several matches. Points are awarded based on how you place in those matches.

The first points are easy. You're not expecting them, you're just concentrating on your shooting and SURPRISE, you made the cut. You're a bit shocked but happy.

Then you shoot more and more matches working up to your last points. They should be easier, right, because you have more experience and your shooting has improved.

Nope it don't work that way, the closer you get to legging out the harder it is, not because of your shooting fundamentals, but in mental management.

After each shot, you think about the points you lost, trying to add them up to see if you can still make the cut. You're worrying about the last shot(s) and not about the next one, even though the last shot is history and you can't do anything about it.

This works on your mind, you're more worried about the points you lost instead of the fundamentals you need to keep from loosing more.

My best shooting improvement came AFTER I legged out (got the distinguished badge). A big relieve, now I"m shooting for fun, no pressure. I just shot and let muscle memory worry about the fundamentals.

And this was for a little Gold Badge, sure it means the world to me but it sure as heck isn't a million dollar contract.

I'm still a certified LE Sniper Instructor and teach classes. I use hostage targets to practice on. Small part of the bad guys head behind the hostage.

We all know that you can't Practice Sniping by shooting bandits hiding behind hostages. No way to practice that. Most LE never fire their rifle at a bandit but they still have to be ready.

To many hear say you can prepare for a gunfight without being in a gun fight, THAT IS SILLY. You can't practice gun fights.

But there are ways to add stress. On the above case, instead of using a normal hostage/bandit target, paste a picture of your daughter or granddaughter on the hostage part of the target.

Trust me this shakes up the shooter, even knowing that's only a picture. But he keeps at it, practicing so he doesn't see the hostage but only the bandit, With enough practice you develop enough muscle memory you only ever see the target or bandit portion of the target, the hostage doesn't exist.

We say you never know how you would act in a shooting situation, but if you've developed the proper mental management, you wont have to worry about it, you'll just act. The gun comes up you look at the bandit and fire without ever seeing the hostage or robber across the counter, you sub consciencely just shoot the target.

[BlueTrain]

I hear what you're saying but don't understand part of it and also don't agree with part of it. I agree that competiton is important and helps, though I'm not so sure that any and all competition helps. However, I certainly agree there is pressure, though not necessarily stress. But let me explain.

The pressure of competition, or anything else, may create a certain amount of stress. If you can actually do something about it, the stress should be less, at least in theory. By this I mean only that with your practice and preparation, you have taken steps to reduce the stress. But perhaps stress is not the right word for what I'm trying to say, but there is a certain amount of management of the stress involved.

I was expecting you to say when you were speaking of it getting easier but it doesn't, that the competiton is getting better, too, or that what you have to lose is getting bigger. I do understand the part about the surprise, which I remember very well on the rifle range in the army, at my surprise at hitting the longer range targets. I was equally surprised at missing the closest one but I wasn't the only one, judging from what the ground looked like in front of the target. Lots of us were overcompensating, apparently.

On the other hand, I'd worry about acting without thinking.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There is a study by the Force Science folks that indicates that within a short distance - trained and untrained folks have a high probablility of a hit and even a head shot. When you get to distances about 12-15 yards (IIRC), then the untrained fail to perform.

That should support DNS's statement. It was on policeone.com by Ron Avery, I think.

BTW, at high end FOFs, you see folks forgetting to breathe and turning blue or having pretty impressive parasympathetic rebounds, taking them down after a run. So that's stress in my book. I recall babbling rather inanely after one.

[kraigwy]

On the other hand, I'd worry about acting without thinking.

Blue I don't think you totally understand the idea of mental management.

You just don't put the actual act of aiming and pulling the trigger into muscle memory, you put the whole concept.

You have the presentation (drawing), you you have the trigger finger, as in not putting your finger in the trigger guard until you have the gun lined up toward the target, and you have the target recognition, meaning you look over the gun to see if that's the target (or something else you don't want to shoot), At that instant the front sight comes into view (this should be when the finger goes to the trigger) and then the act of firing a round.

Identifying your target is important in competition as well as self defense. Ask any long range shooter about cross firing.

This all takes an instant and if done promptly, and practice faithfully, its gonna happen every time without a conscience effort on your part. If you stop at any time and concentrate on one aspect, there is going to be a good chance you're gonna screw it up.

Breathing was mentioned. My best rifle shooting is and always has been Setting Rapid fire. You cannot shoot iron sights at 200 yards without proper breath control.

A guy ask me one time how I breathed in a rapid fire string. I couldn't answer the question. Apparently I did breath or I would have noticed holding my breath for 60 seconds while shooting. But I couldn't say for sure.

So I decided to fire a string to see how I breathed or if I did. Shot the worse rapid fire string in years. I was concentrating breathing instead of just letting my muscle memory do its work.

I've done that in other occasions, an example is do I shoot with both eyes open. Didn't know, when i tried to find out, I couldn't shoot. Had to ask bystanders to watch and see. (Turned out I did, but I don't notice while I'm doing).

Whether we shoot for fun, competition, duty, or for self defense we need to study mental management and work on developing muscle memory.

I've always said, all shooting is 95% mental. You need to practice mental management, and all your other fundamentals to the point each aspect is an act we do without thinking. You start thinking of any aspect, you're gonna lose your concentration and blow it.

When I coach rifle teams, I do not let my shooter use scopes and I don't let them know the value of the last shot. That's history, they need to concentrate on the next shot. Trust me, if they screw up I'll tell them.

[BlueTrain]

Well, maybe I don't. However, I'm having trouble relating the things you're saying to something that is more likely to happen at, say, room's length. What do you suppose is a typical self-defense shooting distance for a non-law enforcement individual? There's still the shoot-no shoot question the individual has to overcome. Not just whether the target is a justifiable threat but also the great leap of actually shooting another person. But I suppose you could say that's entirely mental.

You have a military background. Do you think the police have any differences in their approaches to what you're saying?

[kraigwy]

You have a military background. Do you think the police have any differences in their approaches to what you're saying?

Yes I have a military background, but I also spent 20 years in LE, I'm also a competition shooter, hunter and plinker.

The topic relates to all of the above.

Let take another example, As I said a few times, I pocket carry a J-frame and do quite a bit of practice with it. I can get it out and fire in less then .5 seconds. (assuming my hand is in my pocket which it is 99.99% of the time).

One day a couple summers ago, coming out of my shop I spot a coyote screwing around my chicken pin. I drew and killed the coyote in a spit second, during which time I was able to tell the target in this case was a threat to my chickens and not one of my own dogs. I didn't even realize what I was doing until it was done. I thought about it and realized I did infact see a coyote over my sight and not my dog.

I was able to tell the difference and act without shooting my dog.

I've done that, (reconition) in combat, instantly being able to tell a possible threat was a Vietnamese kid instead of a advesory. Did it in LE also. Do it in competition too, knowing at 1000 yards which is my target and which is the target next to mine. (fun with iron sights).

Target reconition is part of the aspects one learns in developing muscle memory.

Even in peace time, in a safe area where I live, its a good trait to know and practice. I practice shooting shotgun hulls scattered around my range, never know with you are gonna find a rattler in the yard, rattlers and kids don't play well together.

I've killed several in the last 19 years I've lived here.

Target reconition is part of the muscle memory you need to develope as well as other aspects of marksmanship fundamentals. Only way to get that is with tons of good solid practice.

[jmortimer]

Could not agree more. As I say, a bad guy with a Glock would not want to face an angry dedicated SASS competitor with a single action revolver.

[Old Grump]

Could not agree more. As I say, a bad guy with a Glock would not want to face an angry dedicated SASS competitor with a single action revolver. Funny you brought up single action revolvers. A few days ago I got a wild bug up my snort hole and decided to see how fast I could shoot and still hit my target with my SA Ruger Blackhawk 44 mag and I consistently shot 7" groups at 25 yards thumb cocking and shooting again as soon as I had the front sight. Then did the same with my 45 ACP and found my pistol shot 2 1/2" rapid or slow fire but my slow fire with the 44 mag was around 3 1/2" half of my rapid fire.

No match winner but I was satisfied at moderate ranges I could put a lot of lead in a target in a short amount of time. Don't know why I decided to do that because the last time I shot a single action revolver rapid fire was in the middle 70's. It's my hunting gun not a competition gun and it just doesn't occur to me to practice that.

As for competition to me it is all about muscle memory. The more you practice good the more good you will shoot under match pressure just because the gun feels right in your hand. In an emergency the competition shooter has the advantage of not having to consciously think about breathing, sights and trigger control, he just does it after evaluating the situation and choosing the target bad guy. This appears to be one time when the old guy has the advantage over the younger, stronger person with the lightning quick reflexes.

[Ruark]

My CHL instructor and neighbor is pretty experienced. He's worked for DEA in South America 25 years, worked for Blackwater in Iraq, and a bunch of other stuff. One point he hammered home was that in a face to face gunfight situation, you will, as has been repeated here, follow your training.

I've shot in Steel Challenge and IPSC back in the old days, and yes, there's some stress, but it's NOT the same as a real life encounter. Focus here a minute:

You see the bad guy. You see a gun in his hand, the hammer back, his finger on the trigger. He sees you. He raises his gun as he turns in your direction. In the next half-second, you are probably going to die.

Now, in THAT SPECIFIC situation, at THAT specific moment:

Your brain will shut down. You will NOT think.

You will stop breathing.

Your vision will narrow, and it will be difficult to scan your visual field and focus.

You will hear sounds and voices if they are present, but you will not be able to mentally process them.

Your body will stiffen, and your conscious control of your muscles will be dramatically reduced.

Your pulse and blood pressure will instantly skyrocket.

Now... in THAT state... in THAT half-second... what are you going to do?

This is where the "muscle memory" comes in that others have discussed here. You will do whatever you have trained to do. If you have practiced instantly draw-and-firing with an empty gun thousands of times until you can do it without thinking, as an instant, automatic reflex, then that's what you will do here, and you might survive.

If you slowly draw, get in position, use the Double Reverse Jivaro Thumbnail Grip, and line up the front sight with the seventh ring of Saturn, then that's what you will do here, and in half a second you will have a bullet passing through your body.

Sure, all that competition and target shooting gives you good basic skills, but in addition to that, you need to practice your automatic reflex combat response. Over and over and over. I know several instructors who do this; every morning they quickly draw-and-fire 50 to 100 times, every day, without fail. They have it down so instinctively, they can repeatedly draw and fire while reading the newspaper, or discussing the economic impact of the Civil War after 1865.

That's what will save your life if you're ever in a split second scenario like the one described.

[Nanuk]

Competition gives you trigger time and problem solving. That adds up and gives you a certain level of confidence. Add to that training and experience and you have a winning combination. In a gunfight, the one who keeps his head and makes the first decisive hit usually wins, competition gives you that edge.

It certainly beats a sharp stick in the eye.

[shooter_john]

From WC145; I've been shooting IDPA and action pistol for a few years now (usually with my duty gun and gear) and that extra trigger time has made a big difference in my overall gun handling skills. I'm faster on the draw, faster on target, more accurate, and more confident, even with my patrol rifle. I gauge myself against other officers that I've trained and qualified with for years, good shooters but none of whom compete, and where we used to be close in time and accuracy, I'm now much faster and more accurate. Also, a lot of guys are good shots but have trouble with their draw, mag changes, and clearing malfunctions, I don't really have to think about those things, the repetitive practice has made them second nature.

^^^This. I had reached a point where I was consistently one of the better shooters in my agency. That motivated me to start shooting some competitions, which is where I learned that I simply had been shooting with decent shooters (at best) for the most part, and I got schooled in my first few comps. That motivated me to get better, polish my manipulations, dry fire, etc. My gun handling and shooting skills probably increased 200-300% after I started competing, and they are still getting better. Repitition, repitition, repitition.

[Deaf Smith]

The competencies:

1. Willful incompetence (those that don't want to learn)

2. Unconscious incompetence (people without a clue)

3. Conscious incompetence (people who just realize they don't have a clue)

4. Conscious competence (were most of us who train some are.)

5. Unconscious competence (where you strive to be)

If you are at 4 and keep your head you should prevail.

But better yet is to be at 5 and your mind is freed situational awareness with no distractions as to tools or techniques.

Deaf

[PH/CIB]

It is interesting to hear the words, “spray and pray” quoted. I have seen statistics from WWII, Korea and Viet Nam and yes it is amazing how many rounds were fired in each of those wars for each enemy soldier killed. I have not seen statistics for Iraq and Afghanistan but I imagine those wars would reflect the same trend.

In Nam I burst fired or semi fired my M16, even with helicopter re-supply my worst nightmare was running out of ammo so I don’t consider what we did to be spraying and praying although I will admit to doing a lot of praying over there, still do.

I just shot eight different machine guns over this last weekend and it was easy to fire each one on burst fire except for the German WWII MG42, however I have never been put in the position of being overrun or mass suicide charges and I think a well trained infantryman should have the option of semi auto or burst fire or full auto.

Snipers are a whole different ball game, while extremely dangerous if you have done your job well the enemy you are about to take out does not even know you are there and there is no incoming fire so you can concentrate on the shot. I would compare snipers to the bowmen, the longbowmen and recurve shooters of ancient battles.

The average grunt or infantryman I would compare to a gladiator, you are going to close with the enemy and kill him in hand to hand combat or in modern days close quarters combat, a very violent and messy affair.

Sure we should all train and competition does add some stress but it can never equal the stress of the survival instinct which they say is the strongest instinct of the human animal. When you are about to die it is amazing what kicks in and what your mind and body can do, it is such a high I at one time thought if I could be that way all the time it would be unreal what I could accomplish if only you could be that way without it being combat, and for that reason only I dreaded going back to dull and slow civilian life. But then reality sunk in, to be that high on adrenalin all the time would probably kill anyone within a week.

Sometimes you do react without thinking and I have been in firefights where I was almost like a robot and detached mentally, other times things went into slow motion but my body was moving lighting fast, it was still slower than my mind moving at light speed and that is why it seemed like slow motion so you can think faster than you can react. Combat does other strange things to you also.

So yes, training and competition are important, I carry my firearm for two reasons, one to defend my life or the lives of loved ones or others and two if someday a man actually does take me out, I want to at least have the chance to take him along for the ride.

[ketland]

There are a combination of factors which make a person able to fight. Technical skill is one component in the equation, and competition is helpful with that, and is an excellent tool to hone skill, develop your equipment, reveal weaknesses, etc. Self defense situations place an equal amount if not more emphasis on the mental game, situational awareness, willingness to act, confidence, personality type, lots of considerations, which do not come into play in the competitive environment.

[BlueTrain]

No offense to the combat infantrymen (who should be compared to Roman soldiers, not gladiators) or the snipers lurking about here (that is, 500 yards away) but those things are of little relevance to someone investigating a noise in their house where they keep the family silver or to a partygoer outside their favorite club at 2:00 AM back in the parking lot. But most of the other stuff is good.

Now about that kill ratio for bullets fired: you are again measuring efficiency the wrong way. Efficiency is winning the war and achieving your objectives. You can lose most of the battles (but not the last one), have more casualties and still win the war. Think like Grant. Lose a battle and advance. Don't be like some generals and win the battle, then fall back.

[Brit]

The often used thought pattern of the general gun carrier. Competition is not training for a gun fight?

OK, but you can not practice a gun fight! So what can you practice, what component can help?

With the Pistol you carry (CCW) in my case a Glock 19, with the holster I carry, a Glock wee plastic one, suitably cut down, and use this same combination in a IDPA match. If you need to draw and fire at a person, in a SD situation, you have accessed that same pistol, from the same holster, a whole bunch of times.

The act of initiating an attack on a human target, is triggered by a huge hit of adrenalin, then all else is more or less automatic.

Believe it or believe it not, my auto response comes from 5 years as a Bouncer, 3 nights a week, in Liverpool UK, this job hones your instant fight valve, no thinking, that just takes to long.

This stays with you, for life. Case in point, my last physical altercation was in 2004, at age 69. I won that easily, using the Scouse axiom, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you, but do it first!"

I did not think, just moved. And I was armed, concealed, never thought of the Gun, it was not a gun call. The same old stimulus, a possible threat to my lovely Wife. And I have to say, at 76 YOA, nothing has changed.

[BlueTrain]

Hey, Mersey man, I think we've traded comments before.

But on to the thread; I'm certain competition would help in a self-defense situation, only it needs qualification. Bowling pin match? Maybe. Long distance shooting competition with a rifle? Maybe, maybe not. Others? Probably better.

I may have asked this before but I don't remember what the answer might have been. Is there a competition that mimics what an armed civilian might face at home or on the street? Does it have a special name? What are the rules?

When threads like this come up where people speak of practical pistol work, drawing and shooting from concealment and so on, I remember something that Jeff Cooper said when he was asked about a concealed weapon that he might carry if he went into a bar or a place like that. His answer?

"I don't go in places like that."

[WC145]

But on to the thread; I'm certain competition would help in a self-defense situation, only it needs qualification. Bowling pin match? Maybe. Long distance shooting competition with a rifle? Maybe, maybe not. Others? Probably better.
IMO, any and all competition would be a help, basic shooting skills apply to both long guns and handguns. Certainly competition oriented towards the type of weapon and method of carry/use would build more specific skills but competition is always good trigger time, regardless.


I may have asked this before but I don't remember what the answer might have been. Is there a competition that mimics what an armed civilian might face at home or on the street? Does it have a special name? What are the rules?
IDPA competition is designed to simulate situations that someone might encounter in every day life using common concealed carry "type" guns and gear. Some scenarios are a little more far fetched than others but they all reward speed, accuracy, and gun handling skills (draw, reloads, malfunction clearing, etc). In general the rules are such that they create a safe shooting environment and level the playing field as best they can. Semi autos are limited to 10rds in the mag + 1 in the chamber, revolvers to 6rds and There are 5 different weapon categories so that you are competing against folks with similar gear. The use of cover and concealment is encouraged, and in many scenarios required. A cover garment is also required for most competitors, further simulating every day concealed carry. There's much more to it but hopefully this gives you an idea what it's about. Obviously you should check the IDPA web site for more info if you're interested.

[Brit]

IDPA Download the rules, find a club that shoots this sport, fill your boots.

The good thing about IDPA, you can shoot it with your carry pistol, concealed, and do good whilst getting realistic draw and fire practice.

And enough reload practice to far outweigh what you would do in a square, indoor range.

I met with, and spoke with Jeff Cooper on more than one occasion, one time on his range, even visited his GUN room, WOW.

We had a lively discussion about, as he said to my Son, "Your Dad is quite a good guy, despite his penchant for that Pip-Squeak calibre, the 9mm"

He was a big guy, he was level with my Son, at 6'3", beautifully spoken, well educated, ex Lt Col. of Marines?

[Old Grump]

The often used thought pattern of the general gun carrier. Competition is not training for a gun fight?

OK, but you can not practice a gun fight! So what can you practice, what component can help?

In my case a variety of experiences from having to learn to street fight when I was 12 to football to wrestling to boxing to handgun hunting small game and deer with a revolver and a pistol. Various types of competition from bullseye to International to PPC to being a trainer for police departments. Being permanent Shore Patrol meant going into places the beat patrolmen didn't go and you are keyed up pretty tight. It all adds up to life experience and will express itself when needed.

The last time I had to draw and shoot my gun in a hurry was when I was attacked by a feral dog and I had just broken my right wrist the day before. I drew and shot left handed and made the kill before I consciously thought about it. Range time doesn't account for that except I habitually include a few minutes of weak handed shooting in every session. Fight reflex had more to do with it and if you have never been in a fight it might not be there. Then again you might surprise yourself.

There are those who run to a fire to fight it and those who run from the fire to safety and the large number who stand and look at the fire in awe and are extremely useless unless trained to respond. If you are one who grabs a fire extinguisher and runs to the fire you will do fine.

[Deaf Smith]

I have not seen statistics for Iraq and Afghanistan but I imagine those wars would reflect the same trend.

Well for the Arabs I bet it has continued since alot of their technique is to stick the AK over the top of the wall and fire fully auto, but for the G.I.s I bet the trend is in reverse. Less rounds per terrorist killed.

Deaf

[Ruark]

IDPA competition is designed to simulate situations that someone might encounter in every day life

This is true, but I think many people overestimate its value, for several reasons:

1. The techniques are really a starting point. What you'll do in a split-second SD situation is quickly draw and fire using whatever technique you've practiced to the point of it becoming an automatic, unthinking reflex. The IDPA/IPSC techniques can give you some good ideas of WHAT to practice in that manner, but it does not substitute for that practice in any sense of the word, not even close.

2. In competition, you are in complete control. You know in advance what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and where and what the targets are. Then - when you're ready - you commence firing. A SD situation is the total opposite. You can not pick and choose the time and place where it will happen, or what condition you will be in, or what the lighting or weather or background will be, what clothing you'll be wearing, whether you'll have your wife under your arm, etc.

3. Most obviously, it doesn't reproduce the paralyzing stress of a sudden, unexpected, split-second, life and death SD firearm situation, when you stop breathing, your mind shuts down, your vision narrows, your hearing become garbled, your body stiffens. This is why you hear stories of 3 or 4 police officers emptying their guns at a BG and missing.

To really simulate a SD situation, the target needs to have a mechanism where the shooter stands in one spot. Suddenly, anywhere within a 360 degree direction, a target pops up. A cocked gun, aimed at the spot where the shooter is standing, is connected electronically to the target. The gun will quickly fire 5 shots after 1 second has elapsed. The ONLY way to stop it is to hit the target 3 times first. Any takers?

I'm not trying to be offensive or anything - I think IDPA and IPSC are great, and yes they are useful, but it's important not to overestimate their value in real life. Just shooting in some IDPA matches on Saturday afternoon doesn't turn you into a death machine.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We laugh when we go over the IDPA stages, as the reasonable first response for most is to run for your life. You probably shouldn't advance against multiple BGs.

Or you hear your boss being killed in the office - oh, I think I'll go save him from 6 armed guys. :rolleyes:

But it is fun and some reasonable trigger time. We recently had an argument on a stage about reloading from cover. I shoot from the open on the move and then have to reload. From where I'm standing I can get behind two barricades and a large barrel set and reload while advanced to those props. I get a penalty for reloading on the move - even though I'm covered. I should have come to the props and then reload. Silly, SO and match director took off the penalty after the usual arm waving (all friendly). They said it was a gray area and the new rules update hopefully will clarify for reasonableness - but they don't know.

[rduckwor]

Yeah, IDPA reloading rules are a great source of confusion and discussion at our matches.

[wayneinFL]

2. In competition, you are in complete control. You know in advance what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and where and what the targets are. Then - when you're ready - you commence firing. A SD situation is the total opposite. You can not pick and choose the time and place where it will happen, or what condition you will be in, or what the lighting or weather or background will be, what clothing you'll be wearing, whether you'll have your wife under your arm, etc.



3. Most obviously, it doesn't reproduce the paralyzing stress of a sudden, unexpected, split-second, life and death SD firearm situation, when you stop breathing, your mind shuts down, your vision narrows, your hearing become garbled, your body stiffens. This is why you hear stories of 3 or 4 police officers emptying their guns at a BG and missing.

I haven't ever had to shoot back, but I think most of the time if you're attacked, you probably have some time to prepare. A couple of weeks ago, I saw someone robbed with a knife. I had just jogged past a guy who was sitting behind the corner of a building. I watched him until I was about 40 feet past him. I turned my head and continued. He attempted to rob the two guys who were walking behind me. The robber chased them out into the middle of the street with a knife until they got my attention and I came back and ran him off.

I never felt nervous or paralyzed or stop breathing. I didn't really feel anything except maybe a little anger until it was over. I never felt the situation get out of control. I would have been emotional if I had to shoot him, but that would have been after everything was over.

I don't think competition is an end-all-be-all solution for training. You need training for skill, mindset, and tactics. IDPA and IPSC help build skill and prepare you for some level of stress. There was a study a while back surveying people's greatest fears- fear of public speaking outranked fear of death by a large margin. The fear of a couple of dozen people watching you fumble a stage isn't the same, but it can induce enough stress to cause you to default to your training.

[Brit]

I never felt nervous or paralyzed or stop breathing. I didn't really feel anything except maybe a little anger until it was over. I never felt the situation get out of control. I would have been emotional if I had to shoot him, but that would have been after everything was over.

To chase some one, when you have a gun, and they have a knife, is reasonably stress free.

You are most likely not a scardy cat, which makes the difference. As you say, it would have been a whole different set of problems, if you had shot him.

Some one who, on his own, is waiting to ambush who ever, in the open, has some guts also, and in this case was not stupid.

[ketland]

Practice, and competition are great places to develop your skills. How you carry, draw, load, and grip the gun, move, and utilize cover. If however you want to learn to deal with stress, I would suggest taking up a fighting sport, like Boxing, or some other fighting style that will allow you to fight hard, and learning how to deal with the physical response of facing unscripted danger, and think/ act while mixing it up.

[Brit]

In my first in ring experience, at a Catholic Boxing Club, in England, I was 15 yoa.

Because I was big for my age, 5'10", I was paired up with a boxer, who was going pro! His Brother and I had been in a fight at School, a week prior.

We both were real marked up, shook hands, he convinced me to join Lowe House Boxing Club. (I was not good in our fight!)

My School Buddy, Cunningham, told his Brother we were mates!
But I knew I was in for a beating!

The referee, a Priest, gave the ring warnings, no hitting below the belt, etc.

As a survivalist (if there is such a word) my plan was simple, I shot off the ropes, flew across the ring, and punched my opponent in the throat!

That was the end of that match, almost did Cunny in! Picked up some good training in that little club. Polished all points, as a part time Bouncer in Liverpool, 5 years. Biggest one, watching. Second, hit first.

[g.willikers]

Here's an excellent podcast conversation on this very subject - whether competition experience will help to survive the real thing.
Episode 190 of the Handgunworld podcasts:
http://www.handgunworld.com/page/2/

[9mm]

IIRC he used a 380?

[481]

I am of the opinion that anything (including competitions like IPSC and IPDA) that requires me to become proficient with my pistol under stress is a good thing when it comes to SD shootings.

[Metal god]

I have one question with a long build up .

Ok you have twin brothers ( or clones ). They are exactly the same , exept in one way . They have all the same life experiences but one of them has been shooting competition for years The other has never picked up a gun in his life .

You see the bad guy. You see a gun in his hand, the hammer back, his finger on the trigger. He sees you. He raises his gun as he turns in your direction. In the next half-second, you are probably going to die.

Now, in THAT SPECIFIC situation, at THAT specific moment:

Your brain will shut down. You will NOT think.

You will stop breathing.

Your vision will narrow, and it will be difficult to scan your visual field and focus.

You will hear sounds and voices if they are present, but you will not be able to mentally process them.

Your body will stiffen, and your conscious control of your muscles will be dramatically reduced.

Your pulse and blood pressure will instantly skyrocket.

Now... in THAT state... in THAT half-second... what are you going to do?


Which brother do you want in a gun fight ? At any range .

.

[zombietactics]

"... one of the has been shooting competition for years The other has never picked up a gun in his life ..."

Kind of a false dichotomy, duncha think? I think we'd all agree that someone with significant trigger time would fare better than someone without any at all ... assuming that the problem can be solved by shooting.

And that's the real rub now, isn't it? "Self Defense" embodies a whole lot of things which don't necessarily have anything to do with weapons skills. It's very easy to see everything as a gun fight, because we all have an affinity in that regard.

The brother who has been shooting competition for years ... he's probably not been using cover effectively or having any concern for rounds coming back the other way. That's not the way he has "trained" ... for years. Is he suddenly going to "rise to the occasion" or reflexively do what he has been doing over-n-over-n-over? Is this a quickdraw competition? Can he outdraw a gun already pointed in? I doubt it.

The question is not one of whether or not competition is of benefit. Clearly it is. The issue is more to the effect of what benefits are gained, and what potential problems should be guarded against owning to possibly inculcating a competition mindset versus one better suited to self defense?

[MLeake]

zombietactics, you assume a type of competition that does not require use of cover. IDPA, for one example, does.

[zombietactics]

zombietactics, you assume a type of competition that does not require use of cover. IDPA, for one example, does.

No, I observe that USPSA/IPSC does not requires the use cover at all. IDPA uses cover, just not effectively, IMHO. Crowding up to cover and having as much as 50% of one's body exposed is not a good way to "get home alive" from my perspective.

Aside from the above example, there is a marked difference in mindset and tactics. What do I shoot in competition? A clearly marked target. When do I shoot it? Either a) When I want to, or b) in the order determined by an arbitrary set of rules. What do I shoot in reality? Maybe nothing at all. Maybe something clearly defined or not so clearly defined. I shoot (or not) in whatever order and at whatever distance the threat presents itself. When do I shoot? When the dynamically unfolding situation determines I should.

If you take my meaning clearly, it is not a criticism of competition, only of doing nothing else, and perhaps thereby adopting a mindset and set of skills not so well suited to surviving.

In any case where the solution to "the problem" is limited to simply shooting quickly and accurately, the skilled competitor has a supreme advantage. In all others, something else/more is required.

[Metal god]

I must admit I have not read all the post . I have read about 80 percent of them . None of the post I have read including the original post ask's , if any other firearms training is more beneficial to your over all experience or ability to use a gun in a stressful situation then shooting competition .I will admit I would take a navy seal over the brother with competition experience every time . IMHO If the question is anything more then does shooting in competition give you an avantage in a gun fight . ( full stop ) nothing more added or assumed . You open the hole debate up for to many assumtions and what if's .:)

[BlueTrain]

One of the problems faced by anyone considering this question is that the more you read about it, the more conflicting opinions one will find. One magazine writer several years ago suggested that neither military exprience nor hunting experience (sucessful hunting, I presume) adds much to one's self-defense capability. I wonder about the first claim, not so much about the other.

Zombietactics response is good. Participants in some competitions have complained that often the rules are highly artificial and nonsensical in some of the details, or so they say. Yet I'm sure they are better than nothing. I still wonder if any competition can prepare one's self for the ultimate challenge, which is not winning the gunfight but rather being mentally prepared to kill someone. That is not to say that winnng the gunfight is not important, only that the fact that this is about killing someone seems to be either ignored or assumed away. Naturally, this is only a problem to the good guys reading this forum. The bad guys reading this forum have probably already come to grips with that dilemma.

[MLeake]

BT, given the number of LEOs and veterans in the forum, I imagine a fair number of good guys have come to grips with the concept, too.

[Brit]

Being in a Club, after midnight, in any City, puts you in more of a location (Minus your CCW) to get killed by gunfire, than practically any other place.

So smart locations are good, always carrying a Hi Cap pistol is good, shooting a sport like IDPA can not be bad either.

Spending your formative years in inner City's? Anywhere, can't be bad either.

Having a person with you, who you would die for? Turns you in to a very dangerous individual when threat comes to visit. With or without a gun.

[zombietactics]

"Spending your formative years in inner City's? Anywhere, can't be bad either."

True words. I was fortunate (?) to spend most of my early adult work life in places like East Oakland and South Stockton. I did not realize the advantage this experience provides until much later in life.

[Chuckusaret]

One of the problems faced by anyone considering this question is that the more you read about it, the more conflicting opinions one will find. One magazine writer several years ago suggested that neither military exprience nor hunting experience (sucessful hunting, I presume) adds much to one's self-defense capability. I wonder about the first claim, not so much about the other.
I do believe my past military training and combat experience has added to my self defense capability and has allowed me to overcome the mental problems associated with taking another persons life. Does military experience prepare everyone, No! As we all know many people that experience a traumatic experience don't have the ability to overcome the experience and suffer from the effects the remainder of their lives.

[FireForged]

If you have IDPA type firearms skill, then you would certainly apply alot of that skill in a real defensive situation. How well you apply it would greatly depend on your level of common sense and measure of personal grit.

Wrestling is not combat and it isnt martial arts. Could a person who is a good wrestler manage to implement a wrestling move as part of a real defense? Sure he could. Could a wrestler be a dangerous person to engage in a physical confrontation, Sure. Could a IDPA master be a dangerous person to engage in a gun fight? Sure.

[BlueTrain]

I assume you're referring to wrestling as a sport as in school. However, I have heard it said that boxers can be difficult people to deal with, or words to that effect, because they're used to pain.

[Brit]

Using the same pistol, and holster you carry, for IDPA competition. Means you have drawn and fired, from concealment a lot. When you see new members gear? And see it change as they get smart, and more experienced, you are then miles ahead in the ability to deploy your defensive equipment.

That in it's self can't be bad. Reading the NRA Magazine, lets you know the use of self defense places, house or dwelling, a lot!

It also shows many instances where people are shot at, from close up... And are not hit. So, a good pistol, night sights, a flash light close at hand, and practice on the range, picking up you pistol to fire, not the same as from a holster.

Many articles talk of the trauma of shooting someone? It sure as heck beats being shot!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Watching some new IDPA folks with atrocious grips, terribly slow reloads, clueless on malfunctions and complete misses on easy targets - I think skills practice speaks for itself.

More power to them for coming out and we are a very supportive group. We had some new to the group LEOs (not the above) who thought it was very useful as they officially shoot twice a year.

[Brit]

Glen, So many LEOs attend IDPA, and do not come back, made to feel not welcome.

That is such a pity, we as shooters with years of experience, can help (and not being seen as condescending) as you say, shooting twice a year is not really adequate.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I didn't say they weren't welcome. They are very welcome. We have LEOs who shoot with us all the time and are at the top of the ranks.

One reason folks don't come back - esp. males, is that they may have thought they were intuitive and cracker jack shots and find out they are not. It takes a bit of ego strength to say I'm not so good and I want to learn.

One problem when the naive male brings the naive female is that the naive male doesn't look good and then tells the naive female that the game is ...

Also, when skilled folks (very nicely) try to tell the female something, the so called dominant male bristles at the territorial violation.

We are a very supportive group with no range tyrants or blusterers.

[kraigwy]

One reason folks don't come back - esp. males, is that they may have thought they were intuitive and cracker jack shots and find out they are not.

I've seen that a million times. Not just in IDPA, but in all shooting venues, and not just with cops although they are well represented in that group.

Ego is a huge roadblock to learning to shoot, not only in competition but training. Many fail to get the training because their ego wont let them find out just how much they don't know or can't do.

We are a very supportive group with no range tyrants or blusterers

I haven't shot with your group but I've shot all over the country, and I found that to be true just about everywhere, in every shooting venue.

Added to that, it seems like the best, most experienced shooters are the first one's to take a new shooter under their wings, helping them to get started, and making them feel welcome.

Every time I show up at a new place, I find three things ALWAYS happens:

1: I have fun
2: I learn something

And best of all

3: I meet new friends

I don't care if its IDPA, ICORE, High Power, Bullseye..............any type of shooting its always the same.

I'm not a cop any more, I'm not a soldier anymore, I'm just an old man who enjoys shooting and enjoys shooters.

I don't care if I win, I only care if I learned enough to beat MY last scores, and I want to meet and visit with others like mined people.

I'll relate a story that occurred a couple matches ago at one of the clubs I shoot with, that explains why I like shooters.

It was a falling plate match where we shot both CF and RF.

A friend of mine, and one of our clubs better shooters shows me an old 22 revolver someone gave him to fix. A real piece of junk.

I like revolvers and shoot them in most matches regardless how slow I am to reload compared to hi cap mag auto loaders.

I'm shooting my Model 18 Smith, so I challenge him to use that old revolver in the 22 match. We're shooting head to head, double elimination.

I should have held my own anyway but he was a better shooter, but where I beat him was in reloads, I reloaded mine, no problem, when he started to reload his revolver, hit the ejector the cylinder flew out and on the ground.

He laughs harder then I did. Now this allowed his wife to win the RF event and she didn't let him forget it.

To me, late in life, this is what shooting is about, fun and the comradeship.

It's much more fun laughing at my screw ups (and I still make my share) then gloating over my successes.

No one remembers your perfect score, but they always remember the time you shot all the hostage targets and let the bad guy targets go..............(yeap I've done that too.................it really helps to keep that story going with my fellow shooters knowing I was a LE Sniper).

[Brit]

Kraig,

The first time I shot at a new club, to me, IDPA. Their no shoot targets had a smiley face! I was used to two black hands.

First stage, I shot 4 no shoots! My squad were rolling around on the ground!

[wayneinFL]

The first time I shot at a new club, to me, IDPA. Their no shoot targets had a smiley face! I was used to two black hands.

First stage, I shot 4 no shoots! My squad were rolling around on the ground!

I'd have shot them, too. Anybody grinning in the middle of a gun fight ought to get shot.:p

[MLeake]

"May I ask why you felt little Tiffany deserved to die?"

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think no shoots are a crucial part of competition and a good reality test.

Many times folks say that if a critical incident occurs, they will just take them out. I note that many scenarios may or may not be realistic but ...

In our last match, we had two BGs with a no-shoot in the center. You have to move towards the targets and fire. They were very tight. The NO-shoot was righteously hosed - by long time and skilled shooters. I forget what I did :rolleyes:

It seemed that from the draw and on the first step, it was some combination of the stars and the poor innocent took it in COM and the head. :eek:

Oh, well!

[Frank Ettin]

In competition, plugging a "no-shoot" will hurt your score. In real life shooting a "no-shoot" is at least likely to significantly damage your bank balance -- plus you will need to live with the fact that you shot, and perhaps disabled or killed, an upstanding member of the community.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The psychology of the no-shoot is interesting. One moral heuristic seems to be that it is wrong to take an innocent life even to save other innocent lives.

This is instinctual perhaps so the risk ratio argument may not contradict it. So in arguments about campus carry - the risk that a good guy might kill an innocent to save many doesn't work for some.

Consider the scenario, where a shooter enters a locale. You shoot him before the massacre really rolls but also shoot some helpless person. Think that will look good for you?

In competition or FOF, shooting an innocent points out that it may not be easy to just take them out in a good shoot.

I remember my partner in an FOF exercise clearing a house, coming out from a room, saying - I just shot my son.

[Don P]

Glen, So many LEOs attend IDPA, and do not come back, made to feel not welcome.

That is such a pity, we as shooters with years of experience, can help (and not being seen as condescending) as you say, shooting twice a year is not really adequate.

Brit, take a ride and join us out in the country at the VCGHC in DeLand on State Road 44.

I concur with Glenn, we go out of our way with new shooters to make sure they have a safe enjoyable time leaving with the feeling that they were/are welcome at our matches and that they have the want to come back and shoot again with us. Over the past 2 + years we are seeing more new faces at our matches and those new faces are turning into old familiar faces and bringing new faces with them.

[Old Grump]

I think no shoots are a crucial part of competition and a good reality test.

Many times folks say that if a critical incident occurs, they will just take them out. I note that many scenarios may or may not be realistic but ...

In our last match, we had two BGs with a no-shoot in the center. You have to move towards the targets and fire. They were very tight. The NO-shoot was righteously hosed - by long time and skilled shooters. I forget what I did

It seemed that from the draw and on the first step, it was some combination of the stars and the poor innocent took it in COM and the head.

Oh, well! Lat time I shot in competition the no kill target was wearing a white hat. A hit on him zeroed your score for the match and you were done for the day. Out of nearly 100 shooters he was plugged 4 or 5 times which was pretty good considering some of the shooters we had.

[JohnKSa]

"May I ask why you felt little Tiffany deserved to die?""Well, she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time, sir." :D

[wayneinFL]

Consider the scenario, where a shooter enters a locale. You shoot him before the massacre really rolls but also shoot some helpless person. Think that will look good for you?

It can look bad for you if anyone gets shot. If the bad guy is shooting back and hits a bystander, it can always be argued that you shouldn't have engaged him to begin with.

A defensive shooting with lots of innocents around comes with a lot of inherent risks. It's a bad situation to be involved in.

It seemed that from the draw and on the first step, it was some combination of the stars and the poor innocent took it in COM and the head.

At least he didn't suffer. :D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Nice article on competition by Green in Tom Given's latest news letter.

http://www.rangemaster.com/current-newsletter.html

Makes some of the same points that we have been making.

[Nanuk]

Last match I did not hit a no shoot, but I did hit the metal filing cabinets the targets were using as cover, still hit the 5 ring. After we got done laughing I said " 357 magnum,turning cover into concealment for 80 years".

[Japle]

Went hog hunting west of Lake Okeechobee on Friday with a buddy and his grandson. I used my S&W 686 SSR and my handloads. It’s been raining a lot and the brush was amazingly thick. My first shot at the hog was deflected by a branch. The hog came out running full-tilt to my right, about 15 feet away. Two quick double-action shots put him down.

My point: When the hog came running out of the brush, my shooting was totally automatic. I was aware of where the other people and the dogs were. I was very conscious of my front sight on the hog. The gun seemed to fire itself. The pro hunter told me he’d never seen anyone shoot a DA revolver that fast and accurately.

I credit my shooting to all my years of shooting IDPA and Steel Challenge with a wheelgun.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Hanginghog.jpg

[Brit]

I have never been in a gun fight, been in lots of fights. At 77 YOA this month, I most probably not going to be in one, you never know, but the odds are against it.

I was once in a fist/feet, fight in a nice Indian Restaurant in St Helens Lancashire, UK. The year was 1968.

The physical equivalent to a No Shoot, was sitting with his Wife, in a nice brown suit, collar and tie, gleaming black shoes.

It was not that big of a Restaurant. I got dragged into this fight (first Wife had a mouth problem, opened it at the wrong time, sorry Irene!)

In the excitement, fighting 4 Yobs, is kind of exciting, the afore mentioned Gentleman (In Brown Suit) jumped to his feet, off to my right, just inside my peripheral vision, I spun, and kicked him in the chest!

Just a couple of minutes, fight was over, whilst these young chaps thought you had to talk/swear, to warm up to fight! Thats how they do it in the movies!

I had not been to that school, came out kicking and punching (I know, we Brits are uncouth) American Citizen now!

Mr. Brown Suit was sat on the floor, against the wall, opening and closing his mouth, like a fish.

Imagine his Wife, dressed nice as well, in a broad Lancashire accent said to me, "What did you hit my Husband for?"

Me, swamped in adrenalin, answered "I don't know" very intellegent answer, that No Shoot had no holes in him, but was badly winded.

[siska]

stressed him more than his many shootouts. I've had to put my ccw gun away when a car backfired and muscle memory drew it without any thought on my part! :-)

[Brit]

A few years ago, at a IALEFI Annual Training Conference, Jim Cirillo was running a live fire exercise. Poor light, picture no shoot targets, I was monitoring the live fire shoots (Board member) at lunch time, Jimmy said did I want to shoot it?

I said yes, turning a sharp corner, even after a quick peek! A man in coveralls (Picture target) with a large wrench shoulder high came into view, I shot it twice neck and head.

He laughed his head off! I was the only person to shoot that target.

Great guy.

[Pistolgripshotty]

This is pretty much common sense....the more you do... the better you do it!

[Czsig]

"Meditations on Violence" by Sgt. Rory Miller

[zombietactics]

... I've had to put my ccw gun away when a car backfired and muscle memory drew it without any thought on my part! ...

I'm not sure that inspires confidence in the notion of competition-as-training. Drawing a gun should always be based upon the identification of a threat, not a reflexive reaction to ambiguous stimuli, IMHO.

[Sport45]

Wasn't there a competition shooter a little while back that drew and fired to prevent a carjacking or something and missed with every round? My Google skills are letting me down as I can't find anything about it now.

I have no doubt that competition and practice will help. But I don't think it guarantees good performance.

[Nanuk]

Wasn't there a competition shooter a little while back that drew and fired to prevent a carjacking or something and missed with every round? My Google skills are letting me down as I can't find anything about it now.

I am sure it happened more than once.

I worked with a guy in El Paso in the 90's that shot IPSC. He emptied his 45 at the BG from 3 feet hit 1 time.

Just because someone is a "competitive shooter" does not mean they are any good. We are all competitive with each other, just depends on the venue.