Citizen Makes 165yd Shot With Revolver to Stop Murderer From Ambushing Cop

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Here is a Youtube video of the citizen telling the story in his own words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g1n8cmwhIY

And here is a local news story covering the press conference of the shooting (written): http://www.brownwoodnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9180:authorities-release-information-regarding-deadly-peach-house-rv-park-shooting-video&catid=35:news&Itemid=58

The short version is that in a trailer park altercation over a neighbor's dogs, the criminal killed the owner of the dogs, the dogs and the owner's wife and then grabbed a rifle to set up an ambush for police. A local citizen saw the criminal attempting to ambush the responding police officer and made a 165 yard shot with a .357 Magnum 5" revolver which connected to the leg. The murderer turned to fire at the citizen (whose name I still don't know) and the officer was able to grab his rifle and take cover behind his vehicle and end the fight.

I thought there were a number of interesting aspects to the story:

1. It seems I read the argument that you will never need to take a shot over 25yds frequently; but it does occasionally pop up. That this shooter pulled it off with a pistol was even more impressive.

2. A great case of citizens and police working together to support each other, as well as a department that recognizes the benefit of this and welcomes it.

3. A lot of bravery on the part of the citizen to start a pistol vs. rifle fight from 165yds away when you have the pistol.

[Rj1972]

I'd sure be interested to know how much a bullet (or that bullet) drops in 165 yards.

[g.willikers]

According to this calculator, not all that much.
Something like 10 inches or so for a 125 grain bullet at 1400 f/s??
http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/?gclid=CMzIzbHaxrECFQgFnQodvzAAbg

[kraigwy]

Hats off to the citizen.

And to the comments by Sheriff Grubbs.

Sheriff Grubbs also noted that some may take this incident as an opportunity to promote gun control; however he felt it is an example of importance of the right to bear arms.

“Had this citizen not had a gun, this could have been a whole lot worse,” said Grubbs.

I use to shoot metallic silhouette up to 200 meters with my service revolver (a 4 in. Model 28 Smith, 150 grs LSWCs). It wasn't the drop that got me, it was the short sight radius.

The un named citizen made a great shot.

[Willie Sutton]

Elmer Keith would have been proud.


Willie

.

[Frank Ettin]

Well done, unnamed citizen.

And a fine illustration of the principle that you can't know ahead of time what you will need to be able to do to solve the problem.

[Seaman]

Superb shooting.

Ya gotta love Vic Stacy, risked his life, shot the perp 5 times.

“…I hit him again, and I put 3 more in’em.” Mr. Stacy said he is an “average working person…tryin to help an officer out.” [Newsroom Report]

Old school. God bless him.

[moxie]

Incredible. Just amazing. The guy is definitely a hero!

[HiBC]

A fine citizen stands up and says"No!"

And,you know,that guy already killed two people,the dogs,and was preparing to kill the LEO.Who knows what would have happened next.The bad guy may not have stopped then,so who knows how many lives the gentleman with the .357 saved.

One form of shooting I enjoy is just calling a shot on the next hill..."See the little pink rock left of that clump of sage?"

With the idea you cannot make the shot if you do not take the shot.

I hit some,miss some,and get real close a lot.

Don;t expect a hit every time,but try shooting at a reactive target at 150,200 yds.You might be surprised.

[serf 'rett]

Impressive shooting with a pistol.

[Vermonter]

I have a thread here somewhere that discusses this topic exactly. After writing it and discussing with you fellas I decided to focus on it at least one mag every range trip.

I can now put a whole mag from the Glock 27 on a human sized cardboard silouet at least 7/10. If I am shooting off hand we are talking no grouping at all but 70% of em hit the silouett. If I get some sort of support averages go up and groupings get tighter.

I have no idea how well I would preform if that piece of cardboard was moving around and had the potential to shoot back. I would at least have a fighting chance.

Props to this citizen who knows how many lives he saved!

[Old Grump]

And that gentleman is why they have targets set up beyond 7 yards on every range I have ever been on. If you only shoot so called self defense distances and never stretch your abilities to improve your shooting skills then you are flat out wasting your time and your ammunition. Especially with the .357 magnum, it's been making killing shots at long distance for a lot of years.



1935
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/357magnum.htm

It's been my experience that if I am zeroed with my gun at 25 yards I am only 2" low at 100 and I hold my point of aim at the same place regardless if I am close or back a little ways. At 200 yards I change my hold from 6 o'clock on the bull to center hold on the bull of an 8" target and consistently group 4"-6" below the target with my 158 LSWC. (Don't ask about my group size :D). On a silhouette target I hold in the middle of the head and drop all my shots in the upper torso so it wasn't that difficult a feat for this guy if he has been shooting long distances with his gun. Don't know who he was or what he does but I bet he is a handgun hunter.

[Stressfire]

Nice shooting!

But sadly:
Means was able to take cover behind his vehicle and returned fire with his assault rifle
Now they get their terminology right...:confused:

[charlie2t]

That was a very good shot and all of us in the law enforcement community appreciate this citizen's willingness to take action.

When I was doing firearms training at the academy, I was frequently asked by trainees why they needed to shoot at 50 yards with a handgun when most police shootings happen at very close range. My response was,Yes, most shootings are at very close range,but not all of them are and we want you to be prepared for the one time that it is not so close. When you get home this weekend step off the distance across your local McDonald's parking lot." They usually showed up the following Monday and said, "Sir, I see what the instructor means about the reason for 50 yard shooting."

[Archie]

I rather think Brother Vic had fired that revolver a few times before this episode.

He had to do something and had to do it quick. Yessir, he did.

[Archer 9505]

I had an opportunity to observe US Army soldiers practice break contact drills. They were using M-4 carbines and M9 pistols shooting at pop up silhouette targets at increasing ranges (from near Zero to 300 yards). The soldiers used bound and cover to fight their way out of reach of the "Enemy".
Their instructor would make them switch to the pistol at times. I think the point was that if your primary weapon is out of ammo or malfunctioning, if you still have a pistol, you are still armed. Some pistol hits were made at even the longest ranges.

[Dwight55]

The .357 mag is the one revolver I would consider carrying, . . . and this story is the reason.

Of all the standard wheel gun calibers out there, . . . I have always had good results with this one.

It looks like our citizen / hero liked it too, . . . thank you and a job well done to him.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Nanuk]

Yep, good shooting....

[Glockstar .40]

well done! another brave Armed law biding citizen risking his life for others

[Daggitt]

Reminds me of the scene from Lonesome Dove where Gus shoots the Outlaw from long distance. What a grand pistol shot, I'd have loved to seen that.

[Double Naught Spy]

Vic Stacy hopes to do saddlry some day. I hope he makes holsters. I will order one or six.

I am still a bit leary on the distance estimate, maybe the hits too. I would like to know more. I would not be surprised if he was off by 50% or more on the estimates. I have seen hunters do it. I don't see any confirmation yet. That would still be outstanding shooting, even if the first shot was square in the tree!
http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/local/article_851fd04a-db90-11e1-8237-0019bb2963f4.html

[Viper225]

Doubt The Range??:rolleyes:

At last Falls Sniper Class our Instructors were still down range after sending the students back to clean weapons. The Chief Instructor pulled out his Wilson Combat Colt Commander, took careful aim off hand, and made a first round hit on a Full Size Steel Silhouette at 200 yards. He then followed up with 2 more hits his next 2 shots.
That was not with a Flat Shooting 357 Magnum, it was with a 45 acp Commander with open sights. LUCK ?? Three out of Three Shots, I think not.

I set up his 7.5" 44 Magnum Super RedHawk Hog Gun. Which is an older Wilson Combat Super RedHawk with Magnaporting. It has a 30mm UltraDot sight. I will guarantee he can shoot it more accurately at 200 yards than he can the 45acp Commander.

If you shoot a handgun a lot, have steady hands and good eye sight. You can make hits at long range with a handgun.:)

Bob

[JohnKSa]

Interesting to note that according to one source, Mr. Stacy reports he did not sleep at all the night after the shooting.

Sounds like he did a good job with his handgun work. I hope we get some details on precisely how it played out in terms of his hits after the autopsy.

I believe DNS's comment had to do solely with the fact that the 165 yard range figure was quoted off the top of the Mr. Stacy's head and therefore not really a precise figure. People are notoriously poor at estimating range.

I'm quite certain that he's not indicating that it's impossible to make hits at 165 yards with a handgun for the simple reason that I've seen him make hits on a human-sized steel silhouette at 300 yards using a handgun on at least one occasion. ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

Doubt The Range??
Absolutely, but not firearm or shooter capability. I made no such comments on firearm or capability.

Given that Stacy's story is morphing with time, I will continue to doubt his 'facts' until verified. You get the impression from the video that the first shot hit the guy in the leg and then put 4 more shots in the guy and he could actually see the officer hit the guy twice with 2 shots, which is actually good eye sight at 165 yards. In fact, he said he realized he needed to do something and so he "jumped in there and put that first shot in him..." Funny how the hero left out part of the story less than wonderful. Happens all the time. It may not be intentional at all, or maybe he isn't happy with it. Doesn't matter why, but then we find out that he actually shot a tree with his first shot. (see my link above)

When stories morph, regardless of the intent of the story teller, that usually means that there is some ambiguity about the details. Whatever the reason, there are some problems with the source.

In shooting, golf, and real estate, I have seen where people grossly misestimate distances. Getting the distance wrong by a significant amount of 20% or more isn't uncommon at all. At my range, I have had folks confused 35, 50, and 100 yard targets as 50, 100, and 200 yard targets. Part of the reason for hunters and golfers getting laser range finders is because so many plainly suck or are inconsistent in their abilities to make accurate distance estimates. Countless vehicle accidents are based on incorrect distance estimation, especially relative to speed. "I thought I had enough room {distance} to stop." isn't an uncommon statement.

Try this fun little test with your friends. Ask them how long a football field is. We all know, right? It has the numbers right there! Then ask them how wide it is. If they haven't played or refereed football, they likely will get every answer wrong. They think they know one measurement and will estimate the rest, only they don't know the first measurement. Now ask for the diagonal. If they know geometry, they will work the math in their head if they can based on their known but likely incorrect information. If they don't know geometry, they will give you a true estimate, that will likely be just as wrong.

It is a complex problem that seems easy, but there are several obvious clues that will be misunderstood. This is common in real life estimates of less well known distances, such as estimating the distance to a deer in the woods versus one on the open plains, lighting, amount of time, etc.

Maybe Stacy paced off the distance. Maybe he is good at distance estimation contrary to most folks. He recanted the shot sequence with a revision. Let's see how the ranging and hits hold up.

A football field, BTW, is not 100 yards long. It is 120. Endzones are a part of the playing field. Everyone knows this, but don't include them when speaking of the length of a football field. It is 53.33 yards wide.

[skoro]

Well done and one heckuva fine shot at that distance.

[hogdogs]

I don't make habit of questioning the ability of others without reason...

While not 165 yards but it was 42 yards with an 8-9 grain pellet...

In the following thread, I took out the air rifle with open sights just to make sure it and I were still "in tune"... No practice shots no warm up... Just laod and shoot... I was skeptical of myself on the first shot as it could have been a PURE LUCK shot so I backed it up with a second round after setting down the rifle and walking out to my spot, retrieving the can and shooting a pic then walking back out to put it up for a second shot... No real rest, just an elbow on my knee...
http://www.boartuffoutdoors.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=air_rifles;action=display;num=1218926390;start=7#7

Brent

[wizrd]

Just another good reason for all of us to spend some time occassionally wringing out the handguns at extreme ranges, you never know when the situtation will present itself where an extreme long range shot may be necessary. Some of Elmer Keith's books should be required reading for every handgunner. A little well-practiced 'Kentucky windage' can go a long ways.

[hogdogs]

A little well-practiced 'Kentucky windage' can go a long ways.
AMEN!!! All the formal training in the world is only going to get you so far...

The ability to adapt, improvise and overcome is a wicked skill... Kentucky Windage or "Redneck scope doping" is crucial to me...

Brent

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't make habit of questioning the ability of others without reason...

Extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence is good reason as is the changing of the 'facts' with subsequent tellings.

Fine shot shot with your air rifle when there was no pressure, nobody's life on the line, no witnesses. So you made your first shot. Stacy claimed to have as well, only we now know he didn't. He did have witnesses or at least forensic evidence that will indicate more about how he actually shot. I am sure it was a long way. He says he shot the guy 5 times in a row. We shall see if these claims hold up. Right now, nobody has verified any of them other than he did shoot Conner and is credited with saving at least one and potentially several lives.

[Crow Hunter]

Even if it is only half the distance, it still is a good shot.

Not a lot of people, probably myself included, would make that shot.

[ricotorpe]

Even if he had missed and run for cover without taking any more shots, the distraction may well have been enough to save to cop.


I have to respectfully disagree with Old Grump's position that not training for encounters past 7 yards is a waste of time. I do agree that it is GOOD to stretch your abilities.

The reasoning: the (debatable?) fact that merely pointing a handgun at an attacker is enough to end most attacks. If you fire and miss, that should end even more of them.

I don't know what the numbers are, but what percentage of attackers will continue when faced with a victim who is shooting at him?

[Old Grump]

Stacy never served in the military or took any police or combat training courses but he is a hunter. My point on practic9ing beyond 7 yards is because of the questions already asked on this thread about bullet drop. Most people over estimate range and over estimate how much bullet drop they need. Those of us who have competed in bullseye rarely make a sight change between 25 and 50 yards because the 1 click difference means little.

I am a handgun hunter and the only deer I had to shoot twice was at 135 yards because I over estimated the drop I needed and just barely skinned the top of the head shooting from a rest. I shoot everything from 22 to 44 mag revolvers and pistols out to 200 yards just for chuckles and giggles, Trust me when you shoot 100 yard 8" targets one handed slow fire then go back to 25 yards and less it sharpens you up considerably. I know to many people who are dead eye dick at 7 yards and hopeless at 50' The bullet does not get tired, the sight picture is the same. The problem is up between the ears, they defeat themselves before they ever pull the trigger.

Stacy not only did it with his .357 revolver but he did it with Connors shooting back at him with his AR15. If he had never shot at those distances before how much chance would you have given him of coming out the victor?

[Edward429451]

Interesting! Kudos to the citizen for helping the officer. This is a very thought provoking incident. I can't help but notice that he didn't use an SP-101, LCR, LCP, LWS, or other mouse gun. He had a 5" BBL. Enough sight radius and power to make a non-typical shot like this, which very likely saved a life. Could he have done the same with a Kel-Tec or other mouse gun?

This incident makes a good case for a full size carry pistol. I realize that the statistics say you need 1.5 shots or whatever and it'll be within 10 or 15 ft. That is a case for justifying a mouse gun.

It seems to me, that I am hearing more and more about atypical scenarios that happen that do not support the statistics. Everyone wants to be comfortable, and not lug around an M-60 if they don't have to, myself included. Where to draw the line?

I've carry a full size 1911 for well over 20 years, prolly closer to 30. I've had 4 close calls in that time. None of my incidents went outside of the Statistical range. No more than one shot was ever needed (both warning shots into the ground, 1-man, 1-dog) and at spitting distance. I thank God that I have never had to actually shoot anyone, but I digress...

All of my incidents could have been accomplished with a mouse gun. Does that mean that I would be adequately armed to carry a mouse gun? Well, yes and no. History says yes, but the modern world says no. Life can throw you an atypical scenario suddenly. So, in keeping with (the cliche's!) of I'd rather have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it...and don't take a knife to a gunfight...I suggest everyone carry as much gun as they possibly can, just in case.

[ClydeFrog]

Many of the forum members praise the gun owner for his extended range shot & I, too give him credit for his efforts but I also say that this use of force event should be viewed with caution for other CC license holders/private citizens too.

As an armed citizen, you & your actions will reviewed in detail by law enforcement and/or local prosecutors. Shooting at a violent criminal(s) at long ranges may be a issue to some criminal investigators/District Attys.
I can tell you both as a armed professional & a concealed carry license holder, there are many sworn LE officers would rather have private citizens be; "a good witness" then engage violent subjects.
After the big "Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman" incident, my local PD(a agency with approx 800 sworn officers) posted a website notice about how citizens should: "not provoke & not pursue" violent criminals.
The concept of shooting at or using lethal force at extended distances will be critized. Even if a sworn LE officer was involved.
Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't assist LE or use lethal force in a critical incident, just use good judgement & common sense.
If you fire a long range shot & it misses or worse, hits a bystander; you'll be in a serious jam. Sworn LE officers have lawyers, insurance polices, union-trade groups and/or public safety officials to support them. An armed citizen may not.

ClydeFrog
ps; for those forum members who say LE officers have a harder time or are under more constraints than armed citizens, I disagree. A local police sniper on a SWAT call-out shot & killed a unarmed female hostage by mistake. The large PD cleared the SWAT officer of all criminal charges, allowed him to stay on the job and stationed him at the airport.

[amd6547]

I have always tried out my service sized handguns at 100yds. When I have mentioned this on this forum and others, I was scoffed at, and there were always those who claimed anything over 7yds was a waste, and "good luck explaining to a jury why you didn't just run away".
Well, I spend some time in the woods, and trusting that an opponent is a bad shot, and running away just does not seem to be very bright.
Shooting a pistol at long range requires sight picture, breathing control, and trigger control, as well as the ability to adopt a solid field position, preferably from cover and concealment.
My carry pistol is a Glock 26. With it, I easily shoot a 10" steel plate at 40yds. When I pick out a point on the 100yd berm, I am hitting right on it.

[aarondhgraham]

Well maybe it is and maybe it isn't,,,
But it's fun as all heck.

Every time I go to the range,,,
I always throw at least one cylinder/mag at 200 yards,,,
I just pick a spot on the berm and blast away for the heck of it.

With my 686 and something to rest the gun on,,,
I think I could hit a man at 200 yards,,,
Certainly not with every shot,,,
But at least two of 'em.

Shucks,,,
Now I gotta buy some silhouette targets,,,
Just to see if I can do what I think I might could do.

In any case,,,
Kudos to old Vic Stacy.

Aarond

.

[PawPaw]

Sometime last year I hung some 9" steel plates in our family pasture near a berm we made as a family range. This morning I was bush-hogging and after putting the tractor away I decided to take the pistol out of the truck and try my luck.

At a measured 100 yards, I am 1-for-3 on a 9" steel plate. Who'd a thunk it? I need to drag out the B27 targets and see how that works. This might get interesting.

[Japle]

If you’re armed with a handgun and the guy shooting at you has an AR-15, every shot you take is going to be a tough shot, no matter what the range.

Having the skill to make the shot is one thing; having the guts to stand your ground and keep shooting after you’ve been hit with fragments is something very different.

[rgrundy]

This is why I carry a full size handgun. You can fight with it at longer ranges if you have to. As to the range of the shot, could it be that when the police investigated they measured it? Some people are pretty good shots at longer ranges with handguns. I shot prarie dogs for years with several handguns with and without scopes so I realize it's certainly doable. My favorite Silhouette revolver was a model 28 S&W in 357 magnum. I shoot regularly out to 200 yards with all my handguns and know how much front sight to holdover the rear to hit. This guy certainly accomplished what needed doing and put himself at risk to do it, so I commend him for sure.

[ClydeFrog]

A recent member post about "lucky" shots or firearm shots that seemed incredible reminds me of a old 1980s era video made by Second Chance's Richard Davis(the owner/CEO & ex-cop of the firm).
Davis was in a big rural field & wanted to dispell the Hollywood myth of a handgun round being able to "stop" a motor vehicle.
He fired one/01 round from a large .44magnum DA revolver at the engine block of a 1970s era sedan(engine-model unknown). I don't recall the range Davis fired from but it was about 20-25 yards away. The .44 bullet cut through the big car's hood & damaged the vehicle causing it to stop immediately.
Even Davis was shocked by the outcome. ;)
He showed how the .44magnum bullet cut through several wires & part, saying it was a "one in a 1,000,000 shot".
These events are very rare but can occur. Nearly every New Years the local media reports how people are seriously injured or killed by "stray rounds" fired by party guests or gun owners who fired in the air. I'm sure other members have heard the same news reports in their areas too.

It's a bit off the main subject here but it shows that bullets can & do go all over.

[Nanuk]

My source says it was over 100 yards but not sure yet by how much.

Either way, that is some fine shooting.

When I shot PPC I did all my practice from 50 yards, if you can make that everything closer is easy. Rural shootings are sometimes different from urban shootings, in that, the ranges are extended. The US Border Patrol for example does get into shoot outs at extended distances.

How is someone shooting an unknown weapon at you from 200 yards less a threat than at 10 yards? Depending on the circumstances, shooting back may or may not be the wisest course of action.

[Hook686]

... the guy knew his revolver well. The balistic calculator at:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

indicates about a 25" drop at 165 yards when the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP is fired at 1400 fps and sighted in at 50 yards. Was weather a factor ? Even a slight breeze at that distance is going to have an effect.

A very lucky shot I'm thinking, or the guy has practiced long range shooting with that revolver a lot and with what it was loaded with. I think the citizen was very, very lucky that the bad guy did not take out the officer and then turn the rifle on the good samaritan. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you. I'm glad it turned out good for the good guys. It sure took a lot of courage on the part of the resident who stepped in with his .357 magnum. My hat is off to him.

[JohnKSa]

I suspect that he made a guess and aimed a bit high but didn't aim quite high enough and that's why his first hit was about 2 feet low. (Thigh instead of torso).

Of course, you have to be pretty good to get that lucky. Even if he was guessing a little on elevation, he still held very well on his horizontal aim to be able to hit a 2 foot wide target at 165 yards (I'll keep using that figure since it's all we have).

That's roughly comparable to hitting a 3.8" wide target at 25 yards. Impressive for someone having no previous experience with armed "hostilities", shooting under field conditions and fighting adrenalin.

[Archer 9505]

I remember a pdf of an old Field Manual that had sight settings (Holds) for long range fire with the 1911A1. I may have seen it on TFL or on the 1911 forum. Anyone else remember this? Using a pistol for Long Range fire is less than ideal, but as pointed out earlier it is not the bullet drop so much as the short sight radius that makes precise aiming and trigger control so critical. The soldiers that I observed at Ft Rucker were making hits with the M9 as far out as 300 yards. I don't know if his shot was actually 165 yards or not but it is not far fetched. As for doubting his story because parts of his story have changed; I don't think that means anything. People seldom are able to recall stressful events in perfect chronology, in fact when they do it is a possible indication of deceit.

My take aways from this are.
1. Thank God a capable citizen was there and ready to take effective action.
2. What do I need to do to be effective?
3. Although rare, bad things do occasionally require attention from greater ranges than 7 yards.
4. practicing some occasional shooting at 50 and 100 yards will help me at 7.

[rgrundy]

Any time you shoot at long range it's best to hold the front sight over the rear and put the target on top of the front sight so you can see what you are shooting at. Using a white dot or fiberoptic front sight you can gauge it by holding half the dot or all of it over the front blade and see where it hits then cheat it accordingly at other distances. Elmer Keith used a pieces of gold wire inlaid into the front sight for different distances. If you have serrations in the front sight you can fill them with a toothpick and paint. Trying to hold over the target is a losing battle.

[Single Six]

As a full-time LEO, here's what strikes me about this incident: Proof positive that the armed citizen can, and will, save LE lives. This type of thing has happened before, and will happen again. My uniform is not a Superman costume....in other words: Sometimes, the protectors need protecting. To all of those left-leaning, brass-wearing desk jockeys that Sarah Brady loves to quote as saying that "civilians" shouldn't own guns, here's a poke in the eye for you. Great story!

[shep854]

The very rare LR shot is why I traded my S&W 442 for a 49. Even knowing how to 'stage' the trigger for the light letoff takes concentration that may not be there in a real situation. With the Bodyguard, I have a true single-action function.
Bob Munden has shown that J-frames can do 100yd shots; I plan to practice on the 100yd plates when I'm at a local outdoor range. I read and respect the earlier statements regarding 'full' or 'service' size guns for personal carry, but after years of consideration and carry, my J-frame best meets my personal situation.
Everyone, enjoy your choices and practice with them!:)

[Double Naught Spy]

So why might I doubt Vic Stacy's claims? Maybe cause the park residence areas are not even as large as he described. Looking at the online ground livel pics and comparing with the aerial pics, I would be shocked if his shot was 100 yards. That is still a good distance, but considerably shorter than claimed. Not only that, in order to make such an extreme distance shot would also be less likely because of the numbers of obstructions in the park such as the trailers, trees, vehicles, etc.

Here is a good pic of the RV park. Residence areas are all pretty much within 100 yards of one another at the extremes his shot would assume absolute extremes, or that he is the cartaker living in the back, but he isn't. Conner wasn't out by the main road. He wasn't at the little lake/tank. He wasn't hiding in the woods.

At lot of the probably shots could still have been 50-75 yards. My guess is that he stated "yards" when in reality it was "feet."

[Old Grump]

http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/local/collection_6ee41bea-d9bc-11e1-b24d-0019bb2963f4.html

Can't tell from the photos but looks like the park is barely 100 yards from farthest end to farthest end and you could be right about it being feet instead of yards.

I also read two different accounts of bad shooters gun, one says it was a 30-30, another says it was an assault rifle. Knowing journalists I suppose every rifle is an assault rifle. At least Stacy's gun wasn't called an assault rifle.

[Blue Duck]

Even if it was only 165ft instead of yards, 165yds is still very doable with a 5" barreled 357 or a 45 auto if the shoot knows his gun, and has taken a few long shots before. However, It would still take some guts to engage a man with an AR15 at long range. I would sure want to have some cover available in case my pistol shots were not as effective as I had hoped.

[Double Naught Spy]

If you don't follow Stacy's monologue carefully, though he tries to cover for it, his use of pronouns (everyone is he, him, etc.) make things confusing. He notes his AR15, which was the officer's, but it sounds like it is Conner's if you don't listen closely.

Can't tell from the photos but looks like the park is barely 100 yards from farthest end to farthest end and you could be right about it being feet instead of yards.

And given the concentration of photos and police activity, it looks like a large area of the event too place in the central area which isn't too far from all other areas.

Even if it was only 165ft instead of yards, 165yds is still very doable with a 5" barreled 357 or a 45 auto if the shoot knows his gun, and has taken a few long shots before.

Right, we all know it can be done, but the question is if he actually did it. He claimed he did, but isn't panning out.

[ClydeFrog]

As a teen, my unkle(a WW2 veteran who served in the US Army Air Corps/USAF) explained to me that in combat, he packed a M-1 carbine over a 1911a1 .45acp. He was issued both weapons as a aircrew NCO(Staff Sgt/E-6).
My unkle said he considered a .45acp 1911a1 pistol or S&W model 10 .38spl revolver to work best at close range only; 0-20 yards. He carried a M-1 because he could engage enemy targets at extended ranges.

I also read a few magazine articles by gun writer & retired police officer; Evan Marshall(Detroit MI police department) where he advised if you know you will be in a gunfight or could be in a use of force incident to get a shotgun or rifle.

[rebs]

The citizen needs to be recognized as the hero he is.


This is a classic example of a private citizen helping out a LEO in need. This would go a long way in helping to protect our second amendment rights if it made national news. But you won't see it there.

[bikerbill]

I live in Travis County and had not heard about this shooting ... thanks for passing on the evidence once again that armed citizens can make a difference ... good on the citizen who aided the arriving officers and good on the police for praising his actions ...

[Archer 9505]

Someone on another forum located this for me.

[Winchester_73]

With a 5 in 357, evidently it was not a Python. Wow. Who would think someone could shoot like that without the greatest 357 ever made :rolleyes:

[Nanuk]

With a 5 in 357, evidently it was not a Python. Wow. Who would think someone could shoot like that without the greatest 357 ever made


He did it was an N frame Smith and Wesson.;)

[Archer 9505]

Some long range pistol shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKFSN8Z9RnI

[doofus47]

An engaged citizen who was prepared. It takes just one to make a convincing argument for an armed citizenry!

[ltc444]

Some thoughts:

1. The civilian did better than most LEOs no matter than what the range.
2. He had to be a very cool customer to make the hit.
3. He should be commended

When I was shooting LR Pistol, I routinely made 100 meter shots on the old Canadian Bull targets. My best group was from a 4" trooper in 357mag. I shot single action from a sitting position braced against the wheel of a car. I placed 5 146 grain Speer JHP in the black spot on the target after 1 spotting round which hit the top of the target. I don't remember the exact load but I used WW296 with a heavy roll crimp. Hold over was approximately 24 inches.

[BlueTrain]

I couldn't make hits like that at 165 feet with a rifle!

[shep854]

Archer, thanks for posting that chart. I see some challenging (and possibly useful) fun at the range!!

[Rachen]

Incredible story!!!:D:D

It made my day so much I was smiling the whole time. This is EXACTLY what the 2nd Amendment was written for, and this hero set one hell of an excellent example during that incident.

Now if major media outlets across the nation would report on it and bring some positive light on the gun culture?:mad: We really need some good reporting right now especially after all that madness this past few weeks.

On the subject of the shot? Yes it could be done, especially given the fact that it was a .357 Magnum.

Ed McGivern had hit up to 800 yards with a .44 Magnum revolver back in the 1950s. And I have hit targets from 100 to 200 yards away with my .44 LeMat. It is all about compensating for the drop during the shot.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just an update to this thread. I came across this recent article detailing the gunfight: http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/08/one-year-later-long-range-peach-house.html

The article contains a detailed blow by blow as well as pictures from the different participant's perspective that I think will add a lot to our understanding of the fight.

I know one subject of discussion was the range involved... It turns out it was 169 FEET, not yards - though still an impressive shot at 56 yards

[Deaf Smith]

And a fine illustration of the principle that you can't know ahead of time what you will need to be able to do to solve the problem.

And that is the truth.

Sure we practice close range sudden encounter shooting a lot but you never know. Some nutjob with a rifle you see 50 yards away killing people may have to be stopped. Rare? Yes. Possible? Yes.

So make it your hobby to shoot, not just a necessity, and you will become a good all around shot (and that is what McGivern wrote about in his book. That's Ed McGivern of 'fast and fancy shooting'.

And Clyde,

My M1 Carbine is my 'go to' long gun. Yes I have AR, AK, and sharpshooter rifles but that Carbine, if I go prone, will do 100 yard head shots with Remington 110 SPs all day. Fine little gun.

But I can do chest shots at 100 yards with my Glocks if I also go prone.

Deaf

[Wreck-n-Crew]

To make one shot like that is hard enough not being under pressure, but the likelihood he hit him more than once is really an accomplishment.


This is a "madman with a gun" story that ends better because of a citizen and I love them. To make it even better he was humble:

“I thought if I didn’t help this officer, he would have gotten the rest of us,”
Stacy said. But a hero? “I’m just an average working man,” Stacy said.
http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/local/article_851fd04a-db90-11e1-8237-0019bb2963f4.html

[mehavey]

As noted in the cired article:
Vic Stacy [the civilian who stopped the bad guy with his Python] and Seargent Means were subsequently “no billed” by the Grand Jury.
Whay was this taken to the Grand Jury at all.
Is that standard process regardless of the obvious?

[zxcvbob]

I think all homicides go to a grand jury in Texas; doesn't matter if it's obviously justified, or even righteous.

[RC20]

First I am skeptical of all of it.

Second yes you can make some interesting shots, its also called lucky.

Years back my brother and I were at a shooting range with mud flats out beyond (they put the berms in latter to stop what I did as it was a water foul hunting area and people did get rounds zipping by them unintentional though in this case no one was out there).

A flock of geese was out a quarter of a mile. He didn't think I could come close so I picked a 30 or 40 degree angel and fired one off. I hit withing years.

Lucky, but that is also the way the Calvary did it in the old days was to walk rounds in based on the impact (and one reason the 45 caliber was chosen as it made a better splash as it were.

[MLeake]

Skeptical of the measurements actually taken by the reporter?

Skeptical of the Grand Jury findings?

Or skeptical of the awards from the sheriff and Governor Perry?

Please specify your skepticism.

[OldMarksman]

I do not doubt the ability to hit a person with a good revolver fired single action at 165 feet, particularly if it is possible to brace against something.

To put it in perspective, after a hard day of rapid fire shooting at multiple steel plates at 7 yards, the instructors decided to close out the session with a slow fire exercise at 50 yards.

Two of the students--a local policeman a and a ranked IDPA competitor from Texas--each accomplished the following:

one hit, two handed;
one hit, strong hand;
one hit, weak hand;
one hit, two hands, gun inverted;
one hit, strong hand, gun inverted;
one hit, weak hand, gun inverted.


No misses.

They were using large capacity service semi autos.

Bu-- a man's got to know his limitations. I missed six out of six using two hands.

[MLeake]

I don't shoot handguns often at 50 yards, and should do so more often.

Even so, I can normally get more hits than misses on the silhouette.

Article said Stacy is a handgun hunter, so he probably does practice more at longer ranges than I do.

[SgtLumpy]

First I am skeptical of all of it.

Second yes you can make some interesting shots, its also called lucky.


I see small children making 50 yd pistol shots all the time at my range.

That is hardly any kind of "miraculous distance" for anyone with just minimal practice.


Sgt Lumpy

[Malamute]

I concur with Sgt L's assesment.

[FireForged]

I am just wondering how in the heck he knew with any reasonable degree of certainty, what someone was planning to do 165 yards away.

[Malamute]

Check the link in post 64 to answer that question.

It has more answers than that.

Reading post 64 probably would have helped also.

[MLeake]

FireForged,

Though initial reports said 165 yards, measured distance was 169 feet.

Meanwhile, the BG had just shot and killed a married couple. He was known to his neighbors as having a short fuse and a violent temperament, and he had just taken position behind a tree, having re-armed with a .30-30 lever rifle, when the officer arrived.

Why would you be surprised at Stacy's assumption of Conner's intent, at that point?

[fragtagninja]

That is a pretty impressive shot if the yardage is legit.

My dad used to work at the county pd with a guy who shot a turkey in the head at 100 yards with his 4" .357 service revolver. However this guy's rep as a crack shot was already well established. The guy was just a phenom when it came to shooting handguns. Wish I was that good.

So.... this 165 yrd shot.... Phenom, or lucky shot?

[Frank Ettin]

So.... this 165 yrd shot.... Phenom, or lucky shot? See post 64. The distance was 169 feet.

[jhenry]

Good for the citizen, he did the right thing under those particular circumstances.

I do find it rather surprising that folks consider 56 yards to be some sort of lucky shot or something. Don't folks ever plink anymore?

[SHE3PDOG]

Even with the reduced distance, that's a pretty nice shot under those circumstances. He wasn't just plinking stuff that doesn't have the potential to shoot back.

[David13]

I am just wondering how in the heck he knew with any reasonable degree of certainty, what someone was planning to do 165 yards away.

Are you kidding me?
Yeah, maybe the guy was just waiting for the bus.
Conner had a dead body laying maybe 20 feet to his right when he was shooting.
You have to have a brain to see the logicial and usual consequences to an action.
If you are headed straight for a brick wall, you have to understand what will happen.
The shooter had a rifle, he was behind a tree. He had killed two people and two dogs. A leo pulled in in front of him. He opened fire at the leo.
And you think maybe he was just waiting for the bus?
dc

[pandafp]

again guys the distance was 165 FEET and as mentioned many times, just reading the article will answer most of these questions and doubts.

[Double Naught Spy]

I am just wondering how in the heck he knew with any reasonable degree of certainty, what someone was planning to do 165 yards away.

I take it that you didn't watch the video in the OP. Stacy basically saw the gunman respond to the arriving officers and then open up on them. So it would not matter one iota how much reasonable certainty Vic Stacy had about what the gunman was planning to do just 56 yards away (Stacy was in error when he claimed it was 165 yards) once the gunman started shooting at the officer. At that point, what Stacy thought the guy might be getting ready to do and how certain he was about the issue was completely moot. The battle had started. Stacy did not fire before the gunman fired at the arriving officer.

Second yes you can make some interesting shots, its also called lucky.

Anyone ever notice how it is that most of the lucky people in such a crisis are the ones who are prepared and skilled? When it is repetitive, it isn't luck.

[P5 Guy]

56 Yards under stress now that is fine shooting. I've shot my 22LR S&W 17 at 50 yards often it does take a steady hand.
Didn't Elmer Keith shoot longer distances?

[SgtLumpy]

56 Yards under stress now that is fine shooting. I've shot my 22LR S&W 17 at 50 yards often it does take a steady hand.
Didn't Elmer Keith shoot longer distances?

Small children, old men, tiny women shoot longer distances. Lots of them with very little practice.

Practice a little bit, under stress, anyone can ace 50 yards. Just imagine what you could do if you practiced.


Sgt Lumpy

[FireForged]

Why would you be surprised at Stacy's assumption of Conner's intent, at that point?

because in taking post 01 at face value ( not clicking links- never do) I was under the impression that the distance was 165 yards not feet. I would question anyone's assumptions that are made at nearly 2 foot ball fields away from the point of interest. You have clarified the distance so its all mute at this point.

[Double Naught Spy]

because in taking post 01 at face value ( not clicking links- never do) I was under the impression that the distance was 165 yards not feet. I would question anyone's assumptions that are made at nearly 2 foot ball fields away from the point of interest. You have clarified the distance so its all mute at this point.

LOL, whether 165 yards or 56 yards, if you can see what was going, there isn't a problem.

We are back to football fields again? Do you know how long a football field is?

[FireForged]

LOL, whether 165 yards or 56 yards, if you can see what was going, there isn't a problem.

If you can be sure about what you are seeing, sure.. no prob. The greater the distance, the less confidence a prudent person will have about opinions formed at that distance. We are talking about deadly force after all.

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, well a football field is 120 yards long so 2 football fields is 240. 165 yards isn't "nearly two football fields away."

Many folks see distance just fine.

[Ramon_]

Still a good shot under pressure.

[Gbnk82]

Good for him America could use more citizens that are willing to risk themselves to protect others..hopefully the jury sees it that way and this man isnt punished for trying to do the right thing

[jimbob86]

First, I commend the armed Citizen for taking action at great risk to himself.

Second, NICE SHOOTIN', TEX!

Third, I am a bit sceptical about the range of 165 yards ...... unless the Mr. Stacy was not on the property when he made the shot:

The RV Park at 7120 North Hwy. 183, Early, TX 76802 (this is the address in the news story - the name of the business appears to have changed) ...... It's a wooded area, and there are not many places one can see 165 yards ....... 165 feet? More likely.

[jimbob86]

Sorry, just read post 64.

Imagine that: MSM getting "minor" details wrong .......

[Double Naught Spy]

Imagine that: MSM getting "minor" details wrong .......

They did not get the "minor" details wrong. In fact, they reported them EXACTLY AS CLAIMED by Stacy and released by the Sheriff's Department.

As I commented on Stacy back on post 21...

I would not be surprised if he [Stacy] was off by 50% or more on the estimates.

He was off by about 65%

[Grant D]

And he made the shot with a 6" Colt Python.

[jhenry]

Well, if one must shoot a miscreant, a well turned out weapon would be preferable.