.223 semi comparison: Saiga vs Mini-14 Ranch

[jmstr]

I am thinking of getting a new .223 semi-auto and want one with a 'traditional' rifle stock: not a pistol grip.

I was wondering which of these two rifles has the potential to be made the most accurate, without losing reliability: a Saiga .223/5.56 [ak-style] or the new [580 series or newer] Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle.

What do you think and why?

I am interested in both accuracy out of the box as well as the ability to tune the accuracy with aftermarket barrels/parts.

The prospective role for this rifle would be a range toy and possible SHTF home defense, but it is doubtful I'd ever be seriously trying to hit anything beyond 300 meters, and I'd prefer a bigger caliber if I were trying to inflict damage at 300 meters or beyond anyway.

So, anyone have any head-to-head info on accuracy and potential accuracy tuning on these two .223/5.56 semi-auto rifles?


Since I don't want a pistol grip, I am not interested in the AK-look Saiga, or of any AR-15 variants. But thanks for thinking of other options.

[zxcvbob]

CDNN has some beautiful wood Mini-14 GB's for about $600, and you get a 30 round Ruger magazine and a set of Ruger scope rings with it. The stocks are very nice walnut. People compliment me on mine when they walk by at the range.

I can't comment on the accuracy because I'm a lousy shot :rolleyes: (but I'm working on that!)

[Crosshair]

I own both and would go with the Mini-14 for several reasons.

Sturdier scope mounting
Ability to tune the gas system with a gas bushing kit. This alone will improve accuracy as factory guns are over-gassed for reliability.
Several manufacturers of barrel struts that increase the accuracy of the Mini-14. No such options are available for the Saiga.
The Mini has a better factory trigger and the trigger can be improved further depending on your skill level. The only real way to improve the Saiga trigger is to convert the gun.

[RedBowTies88]

If you're not going to convert the saiga its not worth having.

I have one that I converted and LOVE it. But stock its akward to hold and fire and the trigger is HORRIBLE in factory form. its just not right.

So if you really want a traditional stock get yourself a mini. If not the saiga wins hands down IMHO

[sholling]

The traditional weakness of the Mini was the pencil thin 18" barrel that would vibrate and whip making it a ~3MOA rifle. The cure for that was to shorten the barrel to the legal minimum and add weight to the tip in the form of a compensator. Ruger finally addressed this in their latest generation of Minis by thickening the barrel a bit and offering a 16" version.

The second issue is the ~7lb lawyer blessed trigger. Both Great Western Gunsmithing (GunDoc) and Brimstone offer trigger jobs for the Mini. In addition GW offers full accurizing services for the Mini. I had GunDoc give one of my older Minis the full treatment including shortening the barrel and adding a compensator/sight combination that I came up with. They also bedded the factory stock, modified the gas block, added a sling stud, and tuned the trigger to a crisp 3lbs. It's as accurate as I am over open sights but I've never gotten around to trying it with a scope and giving it a real accuracy workout.

The final weakness of the Mini is the cost of magazines. Except for the old and long gone Thermolds I have yet to see a non-Ruger magazine that I'd trust my life to and at $40ea 30rd Ruger magazines are obscenely expensive. Don't get me wrong, I love my Minis but by the time you buy the rifle and a dozen factory 30rd magazines you've spend almost enough to buy a top quality AR and a dozen magazines, and that doesn't include the cost of accurizing the Mini.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/IMG_0205a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/IMG_0201a.jpg

[zxcvbob]

I love my Minis but by the time you buy the rifle and a dozen factory 30rd magazines you've spend almost enough to buy a top quality AR and a dozen magazines, and that doesn't include the cost of accurizing the Mini.

I started to buy a bunch of magazines for my Mini -- then got to thinking "how many magazines do I need?" I'm getting along just fine with 2 mags (a 20 and a 30); will probably buy 3 more "just because" next time I find them on sale.

I keep the 30-round Ruger mag topped up all the time with green-tip 5.56 NATO ammo, and I use the aftermarket 20-round at the range.

[rickyrick]

I'd like to see all minis with threaded muzzles and adjustable gas ports. I like my mini just fine, but the pile driver action of the big ol hunk of op-rod thing makes it a tad quirky for unsupported follow-up shots.

I've never done any serious accuracy testing with my taper barrel 581 but I haven't seen anything alarming about it neither

[sholling]

I started to buy a bunch of magazines for my Mini -- then got to thinking "how many magazines do I need?" I'm getting along just fine with 2 mags (a 20 and a 30); will probably buy 3 more "just because" next time I find them on sale.
It depends on your individual needs. You don't need much for a fun day out or scaring off a burglar. On the other hand I figure that 5 (150rds) per rifle is the bare minimum for a major emergency - but if I had to bug out due to civil unrest I'd want a lot more even though my goal would be a simple discreet (no shooting or getting shot) exit from the area. It's just a sick feeling to not have enough ammo on hand to get your butt out of a bad situation. I keep one of these bandoleers (http://www.blackhawk.com/product/RiflePistol-Bandoleer,856,1388.htm) with 120rds (4x30) of 55gr PSP for the Mini and 2 mags of 230JHP for my M&P45 ready to go and have another loaded mag in a safe next to the above Mini and I have still more stored empty in safe. I stocked up on lifetime supplies of full-caps for several of my rifles back before the last ban and won't be caught short before the next one.

[BlackJackID]

If I were in your shoes, with your line of thought I would choose the Mini.

The Saiga is a great rifle, dependable, and accurate enought to be minute of meat at 200-300 yards. Its dowfalls are: The factory trigger is, by all means an AK trigger..therefore functional yet, ick. Magazines for a saiga .223 are not as readily available as mini mags, though I have seen an adapter to make them take AR mags, but cant verify how reliable these are. As far as accurizing them, you are extremely limited, theres just not much out there to accurize an AK.

The Mini, ilmost every bit as reliable, in my opinion. They meet your accuracy standards out of the box, magazines and other accurizing mods are readily available.

I like both weapon platforms, but in this case I would definately choose the Mini.

[BIG P]

The Mini is more comfortable,But I like them both.

[Adamantium]

I'd choose the Mini just for the location and function of the safety.

[Nick9130White]

Saiga if you convert, mini if you don't.

[eldorendo]

Isn't this kind of like comparing a Chevette to a Yugo?? :D

[rickyrick]

That's wrong, the mini is at least a 70's crown Vic.

[Crosshair]

That's wrong, the mini is at least a 70's crown Vic.
Not sure that one works either. My Mini ends up being lighter than my friends ARs, mainly from the lack of an HO scale railroad set on the forearm.:p

[rickyrick]

Lol I was referring to quality and available technology, but you're right, it's all wrong for the weight analogy.

[Mike38]

Isn't this kind of like comparing a Chevette to a Yugo??

Actually, that is a very brilliant statement.

[rickyrick]

Ok, I'm tapping out. Rofl

[Crosshair]

Isn't this kind of like comparing a Chevette to a Yugo??
Actually, the Yugo wasn't that bad of a car IF YOU MAINTAINED IT.

One major problem was that the timing belt was only good for 40,000 miles, a fact made VERY clear in the manual. The Yugo had an interference engine, timing belt failure will destroy the engine. People also neglected regular oil changes.

[the rifleer]

The mini 14 is a dream to shoot. Its so smooth. I really love mine, so thats what my vote is for. I've never shot a siaga, but I'm sure its a fine gun.

[Bamashooter]

Saiga makes a good roust rifle and so does ruger which goes without saying. I think the mini is slightly better built and considerably more accurate. I would definatly go with the mini-14

[RedBowTies88]

I think the mini is slightly better built and considerably more accurate

I have to disagree with this, I think both rifles are about the same on both points.

[Skans]

Personally, I'd take a Mini-14 with a high quality heavy aftermarket barrel, decent muzzle brake and nice wooden stock over an AR or AK any day of the week. Granted, I'd have as much into this as I would a higher-end AR. I really don't need more than 3-5 magazines, and you get what you pay for with factory Ruger magazines.

Performance-wise, both a good quality AR and the rifle I described above will be equally accurate and reliable. What I'm talking about is something about like this:
http://www.ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/prices/prices_48b.jpg

Trust me, the Mini-14 (modified) is a much classier rifle than most AR's, and you will like it as much, or likely much more, 20 years from now. AR's are a dime a dozen and they tend to look dated in just a few years. And as far as AK's go, I'd take the above Mini-14 build over a Polytech Legend - even the Legend doesn't compare in quality..

[jmstr]

Thanks all. I have an AR and a Saiga .308, so I was wondering about these two other .223 rifles. I would not convert the Saiga, so I ordered a SS mini-14 ranch rifle: more parts to tune it.

Thanks for the info! Now to wait 12 days (my vacation and dros period don't play nice).

sent ftom tapatalk on Evo3G

[Crow Hunter]

I started to buy a bunch of magazines for my Mini -- then got to thinking "how many magazines do I need?" I'm getting along just fine with 2 mags (a 20 and a 30); will probably buy 3 more "just because" next time I find them on sale.

Weren't into guns during the 1994-2004 ban were you?

Mags, even the much vaunted Mini mag, is an expendable item. If you use it, it will eventually fail. Even if not for mechanical failure, drop it wrong, step on it, drop something on it. Even the smallest dent, in the wrong place, may prevent the mag from ever working right again.

I would get as many magazines as you ever think you will need for the life of your gun. As one fails, replace it with a new one, if you can. That way, if the worst happens and we have another ban (or your gun goes out of production), you will have enough that you won't need to worry about it.

I, for one, lived through the 1994 ban and paid exorbitant prices for "high cap" magazines, if they could be found at all. I personally don't plan on doing that again.:D

[zxcvbob]

Weren't into guns during the 1994-2004 ban were you?

That's a very good point; no I wasn't. I think had a revolver or two back then, but nothing with a removable magazine. As soon as AWB expired I bought a Hi-Power... and I haven't stopped buying guns since. :D (I still have more revolvers than anything else cuz I keep buying them too)

[Crow Hunter]

That's a very good point; no I wasn't.

I graduated college in 1997 and I was finally old enough to buy handguns and I really wanted an AK. (Too much Red Dawn when I was younger).

I could barely afford to get magazines for anything.

I searched everywhere to find a 2 15rd magazines for my Taurus PT92. I remember paying $25 for used Eastern European AK mags and $20 for used (probably "liberated" from Fort Campbell) USGI mags for my AR.

I think I paid like $50 each for some Glock 21 13rd preban mags that I happened to luck up on.:(

I won't be doing that again.:D

[Skans]

If you use it [magazine], it will eventually fail. Even if not for mechanical failure, drop it wrong, step on it, drop something on it. Even the smallest dent, in the wrong place, may prevent the mag from ever working right again.


While that's true for the cheapo AR/M16 magazines, it's not really true for factory Mini-14 magazines. The Ruger factory mags are made of good quality, sturdy steel and are extremely durable. I have some 20+ year old Ruger factory magazines that came with my AC556 - they have been loaded many many times and endured lots of full-auto abuse. The Ruger magazines all still run flawlessly - I've never had to do a thing to them.

[Crow Hunter]

it's not really true for factory Mini-14 magazines

Drop it partially loaded a couple of times on gravel or step on them or have a rifle fall over onto one and hit it square with the charging handle or accidently set a full .50 ammo can on it.

Either you are really lucky, or you have been especially particular and careful with your magazines.

Personally, I have actually had less problems out of "cheapo AR" magazines than I have AK magazines which are supposedly "sturdier" than Ruger magazines.

But I have never owned a Ruger Mini, so I don't have any direct experience with them.

So maybe the world is missing out and should be using the Mini? With those magazines you could equip a whole army a lot cheaper than having to buy/replace magazines like all the other rifles in the world have to. ;):D

My brother did have a Mini for a while, along with 3 (30 rd) magazines. 2 of which would only feed when less than 20 rounds. One of them was fine.

[Regolith]

Drop it partially loaded a couple of times on gravel or step on them or have a rifle fall over onto one and hit it square with the charging handle or accidently set a full .50 ammo can on it.

So, abuse the hell out of them? Anything will fail if you abuse the hell out of it.

Ruger designed the Mini-14 mags to last almost as long as the gun itself. Yeah, you could probably eventually break em, but it'd take a while, and they'd still last much longer than an AR-15 mag subjected to the same abuse.

I don't find Skans's experience to be all that surprising at all, having handled Ruger-made Mini-14 mags myself. They are NOT lightly or cheaply made, that's for sure.

*Edit*

My brother did have a Mini for a while, along with 3 (30 rd) magazines. 2 of which would only feed when less than 20 rounds. One of them was fine.

Do you know who made the magazines? I've yet to hear of anyone having problems with Ruger-made magazines. OTOH, magazines made for the mini-14 by other companies almost universally suck. I've heard that the new Pro-Mag ones work ok, and there was a particular company that I can't remember off the top of my head (PMAG, maybe?) that used to make ones that worked well a decade ago, but haven't made them for a long time, and that's about it.

[zxcvbob]

I bought one of these when I got the gun: http://www.cdnninvestments.com/mi220prblmag.html

So far has worked flawlessly. I don't know what brand it is. Notice is it not curved; the Ruger mag has a slight curve to it, as does CDNN's cheaper no-name 20-rounder.

[Bamashooter]

Ruger mini-14 20rd. mags are extremely well built magazines. Better than most AR mags. They are kinda like the mini-14, built to last. I have one promag 20rd mag thats as good as my ruger mags. I havent ran over them with my jeep yet or beat them up against a tree but they are well built and last.

[Crow Hunter]

So, abuse the hell out of them? Anything will fail if you abuse the hell out of it.

That isn't abuse. That is just normal use. (For me anyway) Unless you keep it in a padded case and only take it out to shoot groups from a bench and put it back in before leaving.

I have had all the things listed happen with various guns while training with them. But I almost never just sit down an shoot from a bench other than initial sight in. Doing any type of a tactical reload and you are going to drop a magazine accidently. (With AKs and rapid reload you knock the old mag ot with the new mag :D) Chances are it will be spinning as it falls and it will eventually fall on it's feed lips. Tie this in with dynamic movement and you will eventually step on one too, or step on someone elses:o.

Having your moron of a brother loading rifles in the car and he will eventually sit an ammo can on a magazine. (Unless you keep them protected, I don't, I just keep them in chest harnesses or bandoliers)

Do you know who made the magazines?

No. All I know is that they were 30 rd mags (based on number of rounds and profile). I was too busy laughing at his antics every time he got a malfunction. There may still be a magazine in the woods somewhere behind my Mom's house.:D

and there was a particular company that I can't remember off the top of my head (PMAG, maybe?) that used to make ones that worked well a decade ago

PMI is probably who you are thinking of.

I am not saying that Ruger mags are not tough. I am sure they are, in my experience AK mags are pretty darn tough but they are not indestructible to the point that a person should only buy 2 magazines and expect them to last forever with hard use. (Light range use, they probably will, but so will a standard AR magazine)

[Skans]

My brother did have a Mini for a while, along with 3 (30 rd) magazines. 2 of which would only feed when less than 20 rounds. One of them was fine.

Most likely, not factory 30 round magazines. Even the best aftermarket Mini-14 magazines don't come close in the quality of the factory magazines. I have PMI mags - supposed to be "same as factory". While, they do work, the steel isn't as good and the lips distort a little over time. They can be bent back, but I never have to do this with the Ruger mags.

I can make just about any Mini-14 magazine work with my AC556 with a little filing, polishing, and bending. What I find astonishing, is how different the feed lips on various aftermarket magazines are from the factory mags. Some people blame the followers in the aftermarket magazines, but the problems I've always experienced is out-of-spec feed lips. What happens when the feed lips are (not even a little, but grossly) out of spec is: (1) the nose of the bullet hits above the chamber; or (2) the lips are too long, too fat, too high or low and interfere with the reciprocating action of the bolt. The bolt should not be rubbing on the lips!!! I guaranty you that a Chinese factory could reverse-engineer a Mini-14 magazine 100% better than some of these "USA" made aftermarket magazines for the Mini-14....Betamag included.

Regarding AR Magazines. The original magazine that came with my Colt Sp1 Carbine is a very well made magazine. Also, the magazines made for the FN FNC are well made and are interchangeable with other AR's.

On the topic of AK magazines. I have two types (other than drums) Polish and Polytech Chinese magazines. The Polish magazines are well built. But, the dang Chinese AK magazines are even heavier and have chrome followers. These things are so heavy that you would be better off beating someone over the head with one rather than using your spike bayonet when you run out of ammo!:D Truly over-engineered....and I love them! On the topic of over-engineered magazines, I'm going to toss in the factory mags for a little known gun called the Spectre made by Sites out of Italy - no longer imported....nicely engineered quad-stack magazines.

[Crow Hunter]

I guaranty you that a Chinese factory could reverse-engineer a Mini-14 magazine 100% better than some of these "USA" made aftermarket magazines for the Mini-14

:D

I have wondered about that too.

Reverse engineering isn't as easy as it sounds, I do it as part of my job. That being said, some aftermarket magazines, not just Ruger, look like someone just looked at a picture of a magazine in a catalog and drew something up that was similar in shape, never measuring a single part.:confused:

[jmstr]

Sooooo.

I'll stick to Ruger-factory 10-round magazines is what I get out of this discussion [california resident, so no cool 20+ stuff for me].

I am in california, so no muzzle brake/flash hiders for me either, and no threaded barrels.

Other than a trigger job, what other modifications/accessories are a 'must have' for the 582- series Mini-14?

Thanks.

[Crosshair]

Other than a trigger job, what other modifications/accessories are a 'must have' for the 582- series Mini-14?
Replace the gas bushing. You'll get better accuracy and less scope eating.

http://gra.midco.net/5937/GunPhotos/Mini-14%20Gas%20Bushings.jpg

[sholling]

Sooooo.

I'll stick to Ruger-factory 10-round magazines is what I get out of this discussion [california resident, so no cool 20+ stuff for me].

I am in california, so no muzzle brake/flash hiders for me either, and no threaded barrels.

Other than a trigger job, what other modifications/accessories are a 'must have' for the 582- series Mini-14?
Really the trigger is the only must. They aren't target rifles and were never intended to be tack drivers but they are accurate enough to ruin a coyote's day out past 200yds. I'd invest in a Dewey bore-guide (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/132663/dewey-heavy-duty-muzzle-bore-guide-ruger-mini-14-serial-numbers-beginning-in-580) to protect the crown when cleaning it and a carbon fiber cleaning rod (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/392810/tipton-deluxe-1-piece-cleaning-rod-22-to-26-caliber-26-carbon-fiber-8-x-32-thread).

I'm not big on scoping Minis but I just stuck a Weaver V3 1-3x20 (http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE849400&src=exrbSrch) on one of mine to see how I like it, I'll be adding a cheek pad next week. This is one of my go-to rifles for emergencies and therefore I want a true 1x on the low end for social emergencies yet enough magnification for 100yd targets thus the choice of the 1-3x scope. A Weaver V9 3-9x38 (http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE849402&src=exrbSrch) would be another great choice if you don't need it for up close and personal. Just keep in mind that Minis are hard on scopes and you need a good quality scope that's rated for both airguns (airguns tear up scopes) and centerfire cartridges. Don't let the prices fool you Weaver's Classic V and K lines excellent scopes and are rated for both.

BTW I've had this Mini since well before the ban so yes I'm legal :D.
BTW-2 California rifles can have threaded barrels but not handguns.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20-%201080/da251074.jpg
This is with the Weaver V3 in a B-Square mount (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/693282/b-square-ruger-to-weaver-style-adapter-weaver-style-scope-base-only-ruger-96-44-77-22-77-44-77-ml-mini-14-ranch-mini-30-matte).

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20-%201080/IMG_0212a.jpg
This is the same rifle with a Weaver K4 4x32 shotgun scope.

[Regolith]

A recoil buffer placed on the end of the guide rod between the slide assembly and the receiver helps keep the battering down and also makes it so it doesn't toss the brass quite as far. You can buy ones made specifically for the Mini (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/219931/buffer-technologies-recoil-buffer-ruger-mini-14-mini-30-polyurethane), but those designed for M1911 pistols also work and are often cheaper.

[Rogervzv]

I just bought and configured my Mini 14 Ranch Rifle and I would recommend it to anyone! Not familiar with the Saiga so cannot compare. I can tell you that my Mini Ranch gives me groups that are every bit as good as those that I achieve with my AR rifle. (Possibly the AR is more accurate with a better shooter than me; I cannot speak to that).

I agree that you are going to want at least 5 magazines. To me a rifle without enough magazines is an incongruity.

The Mini is fun to shoot, looks great, and very accurate. Here is my new one with the Ultradot Matchdot red dot sight:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/Roger54/Gun%20Stuff/DSC_0732.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/Roger54/Gun%20Stuff/DSC_0731.jpg