Garand questions

[HALL,AUSTIN]

I have considered getting a remington 700 but I would really like an m1. Ive heard that they can be converted to shoot .308, is that worthwhile? How much does it cost to convert? I have very, very little smithing under my belt so it would go to a pro.
Can an m1 garand fire most 30-06? I know almost nothing about them but I shotmy grandfathers when I was younger and really like them. Please give input, any information besides caliber would be great. I would really like to know more about them, please help me out.

It would mainly be a plinker and a paper puncher, but might see some hunting. Anyone out there have some info, any at all? I am looking into buying from CMP. Thanks for reading my post.

Ps sorry about the double post of the thread, my phone is acting dumb...

[gizmo688]

Can an m1 garand fire most 30-06?

Modern ammo contains powder that burns faster than what the gun was designed to handle. Prolonged use of modern ammo will break the operating rod. You will need to stick to surplus Ball ammo or start reloading. I reload for my M1, and I think I may enjoy doing that just as much as I enjoy shooting it.

[Scharfschuetzer]

Yes, M1 Garands are easily converted to fire the 7.62 NATO round by replacing the barrel. Years ago, the Colorado Shooting Association did just that with their inventory of M1 Garands that the juniors shot at the NM courses. The US Navy had a pretty successful progam of converting to 7.62 NATO by replacing the barrels. Not much else has to be done.

As Gizmo notes, when handloading for an M1 Garand, use IMR or H 4895 as it mimics what the arsenels loaded with fairly closely. The M1s gas system is sensetive to high pressure and slow burning powders like any of the 4350 or 4831s can cause high enough pressure at the muzzle and gas port to bend the long op rod on an M1. Powders faster than the mid range 4895 often do not give adequate performance in the fairly large 30/06.

Other than the above notes, the M1 is easy to load for. I don't even need a small base sizer for mine. I use Lake City GI brass, even for 600 yard shooting and it last a long time. My favorite bullets for loading in the M1 are either 168 grain Match Kings or 165 grain Nozzler Ballitstic Tips. With them I can duplicate the old M72 load of a 173 grain FMJ in velocity and have almost as flat a trajectory to 600 yards.

[Mueller]

There is a device...Trade name escapes me at the moment...that replaces the arsenal gas plug with one that has an adjustable gas port. Basically by replacing a threaded screw, each with a larger or smaller hole drilled into them, you can adjust the amount of gas that hits the gas piston, allowing you to use ammunition or powders with burn/pressure rates that would otherwise hammer a Garand to peices.

Brownells has them and so does Fulton Armoury.

If you want a Garand in 7.62N, you can buy brand new rifles in the caliber with no need to convert an original, unless it has a shot out barrel and most smiths would recommend rebuilding the entire rifle, which can cost as much or even more tan buying a new rifle.

[gizmo688]

My favorite bullets for loading in the M1 are either 168 grain Match Kings or 165 grain Nozzler Ballitstic Tips. With them I can duplicate the old M72 load of a 173 grain FMJ in velocity and have almost as flat a trajectory to 600 yards.

I stick with 150gr FMJ boat tails and 49g IMR4895. Nice tight groups. I tried the Nozler Ballistic Tips for deer season and was lucky to get 3' groups @ 100yds. Yes, 3 feet. Needless to say I gave up on that idea.

[Scharfschuetzer]

Hmmm. That's too bad about the Nozlers as they generally shoot pretty well.

Given the 1-10 twist that is standard on the M1, the Nozlers should have done better, but between the M1s long op rod, two part handguard system, metel to metal contact with the gas cylinder and barrel, any and all could have caused your trouble with the Nozlers. As always, every rifle is a law unto itself. Barrel harmonics in an M1 is not quite the same as a free floating varmint rifle's barrel. Kind of like comparing our children's junior high band with the New York Philarmonic I guess. Match armorers have several tricks to smooth that issue over.

I think the Army's acceptance standard for the M1 when it was adopted was something like 5 MOA. Of course bullets and brass were not as uniform in 1937 as they are now.

4895 powder and 150 grain spitzer-flat-base bullets are a great way to duplicate the M2 load that was used in WWII and Korea. The previously noted M72 load was used for competition and by USMC snipers in VN. My shooting club used to issue the M72 load at club matches as part of the entry fee.

I've only used my M1 (match conditioned by a retired USMC match armorer) for National Match shooting, 200 through 600 yards and it has been quite a fun rifle to use over the years.

Mueller,

I've see those gas relief gas plugs. One of the local gunsmiths made a version of it, but that was a while ago.

[HALL,AUSTIN]

So old surplus ammo or reloading is the way to go, ok Ive already learned something. Please, by all means keep it coming. Please dont feel that anything is common information. I know enough to load and shoot one but thats about where I would draw the line. Do they hold up in adverse weather well?

[Scharfschuetzer]

Austin,

Don't forget to get the 8 round clips that you need to fire the rifle in semi-auto mode. You can fire it single shot without the clips.

For hunting and match shooting, you can also get 2 and 5 shot clips. Most states mandate a magazine capacity of no more than 5 shots for hunting big game, so the 5 shot clips makes it a legal hunting weapon. The 2 shot clip is used in the rapid fire stages of the National Match course where you fire 10 shots per string.

The sights on the M1 are about the best sights ever put on a military rifle short of optics. Each elevation click and each deflection (windage) click is worth (if tight and not worn) 1 MOA. National Match sights regulate at 1/2 MOA per click.

M1s were made by Springfield Armory, Winchester and post war by International Harvester. Almost all M1s have been rebuilt at arsenals and will contain a mix of all the above manufacturers parts. LMR barrels are usually found on the International Harvester rifles if the barrel is original to the receiver as IH apparently didn't make their own barrels.

There are books and books written on the M1 and all its permutations and rebuild stamps.

[Flakbait]

Hornady makes a new match ammo made especially for the Garand which is a bit pricey, but I think it utilizes 168 Amax bullets. Unlike Sierra Matchking bullets which have inconsistent terminal ballistics on non-paper targets, the Hornady Amax is well suited for hunting soft skin targets like deer.

I have taken a few deer using 168 Amax bullets in my .308 bolt gun and it performed just as well as Winchester Ballistic Silvertips in my experience.

When I get around to getting my Garand and if I ever wanted to use it for hunting, the Hornady match ammunition is what I would use for hunting if I didn't want to bother reloading.

I don't recommend using FMJ bullets for ethical hunting even if it is permitted by your state.

Most Garands were rebuilt several times by the US Military and reissued so original Garands with all matching parts etc are not common and carry a premium. They were made from the late 1930's to 1945.

Since the M14 wasn't ready yet, another bunch were made from in the early and mid 1950s.

Most of the ones sold by the CMP are rebuilt utilizing USGI parts but that's perfect if you want a shooter. They will inspect it and honestly grade its condition unlike ones you may find at a gun show. The more collectable ones will end up as safe queens.

[Sasquatch in MN]

If you instal and adjust a Schuster Gas Cylinder plug, you can use any modern 30.06 loading safely in the M1.

I hunt with one. 150-grain and 180-grain JSP both shoot exceptionally well from my rifle.

There is some ammo to steer clear of. The British Knyoch M2 ball is known to be exceptionally hot and the Korean KA headstamps should be avoided as there have been numerous reported case failures.

Don

[MythBuster]

"If you want a Garand in 7.62N, you can buy brand new rifles in the caliber with no need to convert an original,"

Sorry but there is no one on Earth building NEW Garands.

The closest thing you can get to a "new" .308 Garand is having a good armorer build you a rifle using a good used USGI receiver new barrel and new wood using like new or in some cases new in the wrap GI parts.

There has not been a 100% NEW Garand built since the 50's or early 60's possibly.

[RKG]

1) I'd do some research before ever converting an M1 to .308. I seem to recall a lot of problems. Some involved feeding and others involved headspacing, as I recall.

2) I dissent from the suggestion of shooting an M1 "single shot" without a clip. This tends to have people slipping a single round in the chamber and the dropping the bolt full force on it, which is a good way to increase the chances of a slam-fire. If you insist on doing this, I'd strongly recommend riding the bolt down with your palm, and then letting it close itself with no more than the last inch of travel. Note that you can short load an M1 using a clip (it was common practice back in the day to short load 2 rounds for a 10-round match string; today there are 2-round M1 clips commercially available).

[MythBuster]

If you have a good Garand to start with where all the parts are in spec and it works 100% with 30-06 it will also be fine after it is converted to .308.

That is assuming that who installs the barrel does it right.

Headspace is not going to change any more than it would change on a 30-06 Garand.

[Chris_B]

Instead of converting an M1 to .308, consider buying a new M1A in .308. It's a process-improved M1 rifle, and has a detachable mag

[Destructo6]

So old surplus ammo or reloading is the way to go, ok Ive already learned something.
Nah, new 30-06 can be had that replicates the M1 specific loading (M2 ball, iirc). New and non-corrosive.

CMP clubs should have a line on it.

[Chris_B]

as an FYI, not all surplus ammo for the M1 rifle is corrosive primed. The greek HXP is not. LC '43 for example is :)

[HALL,AUSTIN]

As far as an m1a, it is a nice rifle, but I would like a clip fed garand, I mean for 400-500 more I could have a nice m1a. But I really like the garand, Im not going to war with the thing, so no need for the box mags. Ive decided that I dont want to change to a .308, but would like the new gas port thing, sounds easier. Now does anyone know which manufacture is "best"? Once again thankyou for all input.

[1Hobie]

If you decide to go with the CMP route, check out the website and requirements needed to buy one through them. You can't just order one. All you need to do is to get hooked up with a CMP club and that will fufill one of the major requirements. Here's a link to them:

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/eligibility.htm


One thing to note after you make your purchase: If you decide to fire one single round, learn how to keep your fingers out of the way of the bolt as it comes into battery. When you push down on the follower to get the bolt to release, it comes forward quickly and with great power. It can smash the peace out of your finger or thumb. I speak with experience.:o:D

I love to shoot my Garand. It's a great gun.

Hobie

[Scharfschuetzer]

Yes, good points on riding the bolt forward (including the M1 thumb) a bit when single loading the M1 Garand. It is a procedure most use for the slow fire stages (200 yards standing and 600 yards prone) where you have a one minute per shot time limit and only single load. It obviously has its advantages for shooting off of the bench too.

For serious M1 shooters there is a modified clip for use in the slow fire stages. It is called a SLED (Single Loading Enhancement Device) and it does not eject like a normal clip does on the last shot. With it in place, you load a single round as you would into a normal magazine, release the bolt as if you had a full clip in, fire and then the bolt cycles and locks open. Repeat as long as you want to shoot or have ammo. To eject, just press on the eject lever on the left of the receiver and it's out. It's pretty neat.

For 5.56mm shooters, there is a similar follower for the M16/AR-15/M4.

Check with "Champion's Choice" or "Creedmore Armory" to get one.

[Mueller]

Actually when I referred to "New" I was referencing to already complete rebuilds of Garands, such as Fulton Armory retails.

They offer the rifles in 7.62N with various options, service grade, scout model, peerless, tanker, M1C sniper.

The ODCMP is a viable option for a Garand , but the rifles are only available in 30/06 (pricing from $595 -$1150 dependent on grade, sniper models $950 - $3000) Actions (stripped) cost about $195.00.

[HALL,AUSTIN]

Ya, i made that mistake with the action twice, my grandfather called it garand thumb.. I was 10 and I cried, it sucked.

[Tim R]

The ODCMP is a viable option for a Garand , but the rifles are only available in 30/06 (pricing from $595 -$1150 dependent on grade, sniper models $950 - $3000) Actions (stripped) cost about $195.00.


CMP is the best deal. Fulton is over priced and there are better gun plummers out there. You don't see the winners using a a Fulton but you will with White Oak or Compass Lake.

[bamaranger]

Lots of good dope on the Garand, so nothing to add on the tech side.

I will mention this to sway you towards the M1. The supply is not unlimited, and prices will not go down. If you want one, I would strongly encourge you to do so. What I paid for mine 10-15 yrs ago is a fraction of what they get now. And how many can be left?

Not only are the Garands great shooter, they represent a big slice of history.

I look and wonder, where have you been, what have you seen?

[dmazur]

Do they hold up in adverse weather well?

The Garand was known for surviving just about anything the European theater could throw at it and keep on functioning. Mud, rain, snow, whatever.

Two things to remember, however -

1. It is made of walnut and parkerized steel, not fiberglass and stainless
2. The GI's had armorers and maintenance depots

So, a certain amount of the Garand's reputation was probably due to the ease with which it could be rebuilt in the field as much as its rugged design.

If you grease the parts that need to be greased, oil the parts that need to be oiled, and clean it after every shooting session (especially if you drown it), it should last almost forever.

[Chris_B]

M1 rifles held up in Europe, the islands of the Pacific, and the hostile climate of Korea

I'm sure everyone's familiar of the photo taken in the 21st century of an American serviceman holding up a battered and beat M1 rifle that had been an insurgent's weapon

While it is true they had armorers back in the day, the M1 was also designed to survive military service in an era when things were made to a pretty durable standard. The M1 rifle was made to take abuse and be used in the field. This is no delicate flower

[HALL,AUSTIN]

I just looked at CMPs requirements to buy from them, its quiet a list.. Anyone know of anywhere with a quality product and a little less requirements? Or is it easier to just go through CMP?

[gizmo688]

Gunbroker.com
Thats where I got mine. It came with a CMP certificate. Just do your homework and dont buy it without at LEAST numerous quality photos.

[dmazur]

CMP's requirements are generally misunderstood.

The "club" you have to belong to can be as simple as GCA (Garand Collector's Association). I think this is $25 a year, and it's a good source of knowledge about all things Garand. Heavy on collection, but a few maintenance articles appear once in a while.

For shooting experience, I believe they accept prior military service (DD214) or a copy of your Concealed Pistol License.

Details are on the CMP web site, but I believe the above is correct.

And they ship it to your door. No FFL. :)

[HALL,AUSTIN]

Wgat else can i put up for shooting experience? Do I go to a range and have a RO just sign a form? And no FFL? How did they pull that off, or are you yankin my chain?

[dmazur]

From the CMP order form -

Proof of marksmanship participation can be provided
by documenting any of the following
• Current or past military or law enforcement service.
• Participation in a rifle, pistol, air gun or shotgun
competition (provide copy of results bulletin).
• Completion of a marksmanship clinic that included
live fire training (provide a copy of the certificate of
completion or a statement from the instructor).
• Distinguished, Instructor, or Coach status.
• Concealed Carry License.
• Firearms Owner Identification Card that includes
live fire training.
• FFL or C&R license.
• Completion of a Hunter Safety Course that included
live fire training.
• Certification from range or club official or law
enforcement officer witnessing shooting activity. A
form for use in completing and certifying your
range firing can be downloaded from the CMP
web site at http://www.odcmp.ccm/forms/marksmanship.
pdf.
• No proof of marksmanship required if over age 60.
Proof of club membership and citizenship required
for all ages.

And (also from the form) -

The information you supply on your application will
be submitted by the CMP to the FBI National Instant
Criminal Check System (NICS) to verify you are not
prohibited by Federal, State or local aw from acquiring
or possessing a rifle. Your signature on the
Purchaser Certification portion of the purchase application
authorizes the CMP to initiate the NICS check
and authorizes the FBI to inform CMP of the result.
IMPORTANT: If your State or locality requires you to
first obtain a license, permit, or Firearms Owner ID
card in order to possess or receive a rifle, you must
enclose a photocopy of your license, permit, or card
with the application for purchase.

And (from the CMP web site) -

Shipping Method:
Rifles are shipped FedEx overnight. Ammunition is shipped FedEx Ground. Most other items are shipped FedEx Express Saver. If you have a P.O. Box, please be sure to provide a valid street address on your order. Rifle and ammo shipments – adult signature required.

I believe you can have a RO certify your shooting activity, and the CMP has a form for that. If you already have a CPL, a copy of that is one of the many proofs of marksmanship participation that CMP accepts.

You'll notice in the above that the CMP does their own NICS background check, so they're not really pulling anything off.

...or are you yankin my chain?

I've found there is quite enough perfectly true material out there to keep me busy for years. I haven't had to make anything up yet. :)