Mag disconnects,loaded chamber indicators,killing reliability of semi auto's?

[B.N.Real]

Are we safety-ing ourselves into unreliable semi auto handguns?

Or is it simply necessary to run the gun through 500 rounds to break every semi in we buy with these features now?

[SharkHat]

Are mag disconnects and loaded chamber indicators the direct cause of the perceived need to break in a gun?

[B.N.Real]

I've seen many posts indicating previously reliable handguns with these new features having reliability issues since the features were introduced in them.

That's why I'm asking.

Are you see handguns with more reliability issues since these features were engineered into handguns.

I just sold a almost new 22/45 that was based on the outstanding Ruger design of a gun I owned twenty years ago that NEVER had a reliability issue.

And I am reading many posts declaring that these features are causing issues.

Are you seeing these new features in handguns as a reliability problem?

[Slopemeno]

No. It's still smart to run 500 rounds through any defensive gun.

The S&W 3-rd generation guns had these features 20+ years ago- worked then and still work now. I had a department with 120 of the 3rd gen in service and those guns were as reliable as a semi-auto could be.

This is a training and perception issue.

[Pilot]

While I've owned and shot Browning Hi Powers for well over 20 years with no problems either, I think the OP is referring the changes Ruger made to the MK III .22 pistol. People have reported some reliabitity and function issues due to the LCI and Mag Disconnect to the point many are removing them in an effort to return the gun tp the MK II configuration.

So yes, in the instance of the MK III there have been issues. With centerfire pistols, I have not heard of any.

[fuhr52]

A gun is a man made mechanical device. It can fail like anything man made. Shouldn't carry it if you can't trust it to work when you need it. As for the safety devices I don't think they have a negative effect on the operation of the gun. They are there for the most part so the progressive liberal bed wetting bleeding heart gun grabbers can sleep at night. Makes them feel warm and fuzzy.:)

[ScottRiqui]

I think it's rare to make a modification to a gun's internals that increases both complexity AND reliability, so my gut instinct is that the additions you're talking about would either have no effect on reliability, or they would have a slightly negative effect.

But if you're having to put 500 rounds through a gun before it "runs right", it's probably not the safety features that are causing the need for a break-in.

[riggins_83]

I'm not concerned about loaded chamber indicators.. long as it's something subtle such as that of a Glock. In theory it could be another way for the gun to become dirty/jam etc.. doubt you'd see that in the field.

I refuse to own or carry a gun with a magazine disconnect. Don't like the idea and I've seen a few over the years with that spring broken.... one more thing to fail.

[riggins_83]

And riggins, I have had pistols with mag disconects for 50 years including one now and never had a spring failure, this is one of those urban legends that the Myth Busters should take up.


Not saying it's something that will happen often. It's a feature I don't like; I've worked on two handguns in the last couple years with broken magazine disconnect springs which had rendered the guns useless.

[Jim243]

Not saying it's something that will happen often. It's a feature I don't like; I've worked on two handguns in the last couple years with broken magazine disconnect springs which had rendered the guns useless.

Sorry to hear that, it's not a feature you find in a lot of guns and yes people sometimes do not like them, but without them a few States will not approve any pistol without them for sale.

I don't agree with this, but too many people have been shot with unloaded guns that had the mags out of them. That's why in IDPA matches, you not only drop your mag, but show that your chamber is clear as well. The problem is then you are suppost to drop your hammer on the empty chamber so you have to put your mag back in to do that. I know a lot of things in life are strange.

Jim

[riggins_83]

Had a customer last week who had dropped the magazine on his AR but didn't clear the action. Pulled the trigger and put a round into his wall, too. Somehow the fact he was active duty made it even more embarrassing..

Sadly there are people out there who don't follow the basic rules of gun safety and having a magazine disconnect in a gun they're used to may mean they feel it's ok the pull the trigger if the magazine is dropped. When they pick up a gun without that feature disaster may occur. People who trust a mechanical safety and treat a gun as though it's not a danger because "the safety is on" shouldn't own firearms.. period.

I had a customer who thought every handgun made had a magazine disconnect. We had a nice talk about gun safety....

[Pilot]

I'm not a fan of "safety" features that take the focus of safety off the operator and place it on the gun. That being said, I am a huge Browning Hi Power fan and have no problem with the magazine disconnect. I also have a very nice little Beretta M85FS with a mag disconnect, and LCI on the extractor (ingenious design, as no parts were added). Again, no problems.

However, I do have a problem with LCI's, and Mag Disconnects for .22 Target pistols like the Ruger MK III. Totally unnecessary, and purely to meet unreasonable state requirments, that will only get more onerous if placated.

The OP has a right to be concerned with added, unnecessary parts that can fail or cause feeding failures like the Ruger MK III's LCI. The Mag Disconnect also makes dissasembly and reassembly of the pistol more complicated.

[Carry_24/7]

No; training clears the way for change....

[Double Naught Spy]

I thought it was a direct simple question.

No, it really wasn't, otherwise you would not have had to try to explain yourself in your second post which still didn't offer much insight. How about some examples of what you are talking about - models and threads.

[Slugthrower]

Anything that makes a machine more complicated adds to the potential of it failing. Simply due to there being more parts that can potentially fail. Does that mean modern firearms are more prone to failure? Not an easily answered question. For some firearms it may prove to be true. For others not so much.

Can't really see where a chamber indicator would make them less reliable. As to wether you should trust such a thing is another matter. In general a mechanical safety shouldn't cause the operator to ignore the rules of safe handling. Doing a press check would be a little wiser and mitigates the need for such an addition to the firearm. It is a moot point and a subject that everyone can find faults in. (Moot means debateable, for those that don't know it's proper definition and find the previous statement confusing.)

The magazine disconect could be an issue. This is if it will interfere with normal operation while the magazine is in the firearm. Personally I don't have any that have that feature, nor will I own one that does. On the other hand I have a 336 Marlin that has the hated crossbolt safety. It may be an abomintaion to the purist, but is it less reliable? Kind of like how there are many who can't stand the saftey locks on S&W revolvers. So long as it doesn't interfere with normal operation and I have the option to use or not use it, what does it really matter? Yes it is an added part that invites failure. Under normal circumstances it won't matter all that much, IMO.

A lot of these so called saftey features are nothing more than additions to what is for the most part an already safe firearm. It makes me recall the people who debate the 70 series and 80 series of the 1911. Choose what you trust and do your best to be a safe user. That will be the real factor in the end of it.

We all know that if you are unsafe with a firearm eventually you will have an incident with it. If anything all these devices do is give people a false sense of security. This in itself can lead to people engaging in behavior that otherwise they wouldn't. All for fear that the less safe firearm might go bang and that their newest safest firearm ever won't do the same thing.

We all know simple is better. At what point do we just abandon the self loading, revolving, lever, pump, or bolt action in favor of a single shot for reliabilty and safety?

[johnbt]

"I just sold a almost new 22/45 that was based on the outstanding Ruger design of a gun I owned twenty years ago that NEVER had a reliability issue."

I bought one when it first came out. It was so unreliable that the gun shop replaced it.

The second one was worse and the shop shipped it back to Ruger. To their credit, they replaced most of the parts and tossed in a free 40-ounce trigger job that was just perfect.

John

[Pilot]

The design of the Ruger MK III LCI (loaded chamber indicator) can get gunk caught in it and also is another impediment to feeding as there is another spring for the bullet to overcome. So the more dirt in the less reliable it becomes. Many are removing it and installing a blank in the space.

[Chris_B]

Are we safety-ing ourselves into unreliable semi auto handguns?

Or is it simply necessary to run the gun through 500 rounds to break every semi in we buy with these features now?

I have only one new firearm, a Ruger MKIII.

The pistol was reliable, accurate, and a pleasure right out of the box. No break in at all. All I did was buy it, take it home, clean the barrel, lube it, and shoot. I have about 1500 rounds through, and the only issues have been .22 round failing to fire, which is not the pistol's fault

I have another .22 pistol that has a dreadful rep, and it has those nanny controls too, a P22. And my P22 was purchased used, who knows how many rounds. It was reliable enough to go through more than 20 bulk packs of ammo with only a dozen failure attributable to the pistol, and of those, half where jams of spent cases and the others where the slide failing to lock back after firing a round because the pistol was dirty.

based on my experience, no, mag disconnects and LCIs have nothing to do with inherent reliability or unreliability.

LCIs in particular have a bad rep; my P.38 has never had a failure attributable to the LCI and in fact it is quite a useful feature for the pistol's intended use- sometimes it may be used in the dark, and the LCI sticks out the back, by the hammer. It provided poitive tactile feedback re: a loaded round

I have a 1911 that has an LCI and it's merely a slot in the barrel hood for visual ID of a round being present. I can see the uses for an LCI depending on what the pistol is used for.

Mag disconnects...seem silly. I need to put in a mag to close the action on my P22 for example. That doesn't prevent a round from being chambered at all- it could have been in there the whole time

[WVsig]

I do not think that they are a major problem but I avoid them when I can. I remove the mag disconnect from all of my BHPs. I have left the mechinisms in other guns but they always come out of the BHPs.

Chamber loaded indicators are a lawyer feature I can do without but if I really want the gun I can over look it. I personally think they serve no real purpose.

All that said I have never any of these types of featiures fail and cause a failure to fire in my hands or seen it happen in someone elses. This does not mean it doe not happen but... I would say they are not killing the reliability of semi-autos in general.

[Mike Irwin]

I suggest that more than a few of you re-read TFL's Forum Rules before you post again.

If you don't, and I have to clean up this thread again, your days at TFL may very well be numbered.

[tahunua001]

I own 2 springfield XDMs and a Ruger SR9C. all of them have loaded chamber indicators and the ruger HAD a mag disconnect. I have never had a problem with the XDMs and niether springfield or HS Produkt recommends a breakin period. my ruger had 4 fails to fire in the first 50 rounds but the same rounds failed to fire in any of my other 9mms so I dont know if it was ammo or gun related. I removed the mag disconnect just because I really do believe that safety should be a state of mind and matter of training rather than extra gizmos. I ended putting a little under 500 rounds through the SR9 before cleaning it for the first time and it's been flawless asside from stated issues.

[KyJim]

I've seen many posts indicating previously reliable handguns with these new features having reliability issues since the features were introduced in them.

That's why I'm asking.I have never read of this phenomenon. I question your premise.

[Sparks1957]

I have never read of this phenomenon. I question your premise.

I question it as well. I think a much bigger factor in the seemingly growing unreliability of handguns is the drive for maximum profit by gun companies, which leads to increased production of guns with less stringent quality control.
That said, increasing the complexity of any machine increases the risk of malfunction, I suppose.

[michael t]

I have saw a lot of Complaints about the Ruger . my MKII runs fine and has since day 1. I wouldn't buy a new Ruger based on the number of complaints I have seen.
I think these items are not needed . But were being stuck with them like it or not. Remember this come from places like Ca and their anti gun ,save me from my self people . In order to sell in that state you must jump thru their hoops. If I made pistols I wouldn't add on to please one or two states . .

[Chris_B]

One huge plus of the MKIII in my opinion has a huge deal to do with a change they made- the mag release is finally in the right place ;)