Guns in books

[hlds54]

Ok so I am a writer, trying to get published and I am working on a new "idea" so to speak. anyway the two protagonist in the story are former SF operators, havent decided on which branch yet but some pretty bad dudes. Anyway Im trying to think of what guns to give them. I've decided on M4's as their main guns but when it comes to side arms I cant decide what to give them. Im thinking Mk 23 Mod 0 (HK usp .45) or the good ol 1911. Tell me what you think and/or give me some other suggestions, thanks

[HKGuns]

I'd go with Colt 1911's if I were you. If you want to go with HK, go with the USP 45 and it would be more believable. Either of these would be a good choice in my opinion. There aren't many who can slog around with the Mark 23. (Mark 23 is not the same as a USP 45.)

[Bran Diezel]

G18 full auto with 33 rd. magazines, supressors, tac lights and lasers. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[BarryLee]

SIG P226 9mm

[TxFlyFish]

Hk Mk24 = hk45c with threaded barrel...commercially as hk45ct

[loose_holster_dan]

hk usp or sig p226. these are the most believable for modern day special forces.

[pbratton]

Well, you could have one the modern day warior using the USP as a sidearm and the other as the 'old school' vet that keeps the 1911 close by.

Gives you an avenue for dialogue between the two...

[Crow Hunter]

Don't do the Mk 23 if you are trying to go for realism.

Have you every picked one up before? There is a reason it is called an "Offensive Handgun Weapon System". It is a monster.

It is also universally derided and disliked. Yet another Ordnance boondoggle.

If you are going to have a gun that size, might as well take a sub gun with a folding stock....

Go to Lightfighter.com. Join, and do some searches. DO NOT ASK THIS QUESTION though. You should find some interesting information if you are good a searches and can read between the lines.

Hint, a certain company made a certain extended .40 magazine and it wasn't for the civilian/LEO market....;)

[TxFlyFish]

I like trivia! Hmmm tan glock mags? Second guess would be clear USP mags (but i think thats available to LE)

[hardhat harry]

Hi-Point .45ACP and for backup the Hi-Point .380.:D

[Walt Sherrill]

From the few I've talked with, and what I've read, most Special Ops types aren't all that enthused about handguns -- but carry them. (One SEAL I talked with said that for most projects, he'd rather carry an extra canteen than a handgun. It would, of course, depend on what task they're undertaking.)

The hardcore Special Ops/Special Forces folks seem to pick weapons depending on their assignment or mission, so having them stick with one set of weapons probably isn't realistic. They all have access to whatever they need.

You need to pick the "mission" and then pick the best weapons for that mission.

[Tombstonejim]

"protagonist in the story are former SF operators, havent decided on which branch"

This comment caused me to kinda say HUH.

Special Forces = Army

Air Force = Special Ops

Navy = Seals

You may have used SF just as a general term, which is OK, but if not you will need to be more specific in your book if you want any credability.

[DasGuy]

Regarding the above post:

Army Special Forces (they wear the green berets)
Everyone else (Rangers, SEALs/ SWCC, Air Force PJs/CCTs, etc) are considered "Special Operations Forces".

[Walt Sherrill]

Re: Special Forces.

Army Special Forces personnel are included in a broad category of people and functions called Special Ops. It's not as cut-and-dried as cited above. Folks assigned to Special Forces units may have short or long-term duty assignments with Special Ops teams, etc.

Here's one source that expands on this point...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/jointservices/a/specialops.htm

[Skans]

It's fiction, right? Why not go with something interesting - something atypical? Or, do you want your main character to be use the "tool" that his superiors told him to use or gave to him?

Here are some suggestions:

HK P7M13 with suppressor
Steyr GB

Smith Wesson Model 327PC Scandium 8-Shot 357 Mag - maybe your character is a revolver guy who wants to make sure he doesn't leave any casings behind

Custom STI 2011 double-stack .45

Sig X-Five -

Glock 29 - 10mm

What's the point of making one of your characters some kind of secret squirrel if he's going to carry a standard 1911, Beretta 92, Glock 17, etc?

[SPEMack618]

The term operators to me conjurs up images of Delta Force guys....

And Special Forces are the guys who wear the green beret.

Every one else is a Special Operations Force. (Navy SEALs, Rangers, PJs, etc.)


As far as handguns go....I would keep it simple.

Every "cool guy", and by that I mean guys wearing American flag ball caps, non-uniform cargo pants, Merrell hiking boots etc. I saw in the sandbox had a Beretta, a Sig, or as much as it pains me to say it...a Glock.

However, as an aspiring writer myself, my protagonist carries either a P-228 in .357 Sig, a Kimber Desert Warrior, or a Colt Delta Elite.

[Crow Hunter]

It's fiction, right? Why not go with something interesting - something atypical? Or, do you want your main character to be use the "tool" that his superiors told him to use or gave to him?

Here are some suggestions:

HK P7M13 with suppressor
Steyr GB

Smith Wesson Model 327PC Scandium 8-Shot 357 Mag - maybe your character is a revolver guy who wants to make sure he doesn't leave any casings behind

Custom STI 2011 double-stack .45

Sig X-Five -

Glock 29 - 10mm

What's the point of making one of your characters some kind of secret squirrel if he's going to carry a standard 1911, Beretta 92, Glock 17, etc?

I have a better one. He uses Patton's Single Action Army, he swiped the real one and substituted a replica.

Make your character memorable. Give him the handgun equivalent of Anduril or Sting or Mjolnir.

[OsOk-308]

Well, you could have one the modern day warior using the USP as a sidearm and the other as the 'old school' vet that keeps the 1911 close by.

Gives you an avenue for dialogue between the two...

+1! By doing this you give each character their own distinctive personality. This could give some conversation at some point. I like the idea of the Modern Day Warrior and the 'old school' vet having a conversation like this:

*The old school (OS) vet is cleaning his Colt Government model 1911A1 with a cloth, the Modern Day Warrior (MDW) notices his choice of sidearm*
MDW - HAHA, you gotta be kidding me, you might as well be cleaning a sharpened stick.
OS - Watch yourself son, this is a Colt Government Model 1911A1, greatest handgun ever made.
MDW - You really think your Colt is as good as good as my HK?
OS - Better.
MDW - My grandfather used one of those!
OS - Smart Man.
MDW - My HK can carry 12 +1 in the chamber, you can carry 8 rounds at best!
OS - I won't waste rounds then, will I?
MDW - Why on earth would you consider carrying that obsolete piece of crap around?
*OS looks up from cleaning his 1911*
OS - Because how many Nazis did your HK kill?
MDW - ....

[SPEMack618]

While that would be cool, and a great scene, I think if the OP is striving for realism, he should have his characters stick to either Beretta 92s or Sig M-11s.

[hlds54]

+1! By doing this you give each character their own distinctive personality. This could give some conversation at some point. I like the idea of the Modern Day Warrior and the 'old school' vet having a conversation like this:

*The old school (OS) vet is cleaning his Colt Government model 1911A1 with a cloth, the Modern Day Warrior (MDW) notices his choice of sidearm*
MDW - HAHA, you gotta be kidding me, you might as well be cleaning a sharpened stick.
OS - Watch yourself son, this is a Colt Government Model 1911A1, greatest handgun ever made.
MDW - You really think your Colt is as good as good as my HK?
OS - Better.
MDW - My grandfather used one of those!
OS - Smart Man.
MDW - My HK can carry 12 +1 in the chamber, you can carry 8 rounds at best!
OS - I won't waste rounds then, will I?
MDW - Why on earth would you consider carrying that obsolete piece of crap around?
*OS looks up from cleaning his 1911*
OS - Because how many Nazis did your HK kill?
MDW - ....

LMAO Thats some good dialogue! I think I'll have to change that a little and paraphrase that (if thats alright with you) so yeah I think that could deff work, thanks!

[ClydeFrog]

This is an interesting topic but I'm not going into super-duper detail.
That would be way to long & to be honest, start way too many fights; ;) .
In short, I'd read & research a few top non fiction books & spec ops websites;
Richard NMI Marcinko; www.DickMarcinko.com www.Paladin-Press.com www.imfdb.org .
Get a few of these popular non fiction books; First SEAL, One Perfect Op, No Heroes, Cold Zero, Bravo Two Zero, John Plaster's books about the MAC-V-SOG, James Carney's autobiography about USAF spec ops, Rogue Warrior, Red Cell, Killing Bin Laden, John Weisman's book; KBL, Dear Mom; A Sniper's Viet-Nam, Inside the Delta Force by Eric Haney(US Army Command Sgt Major, retired), The Delta Force by COL Charles Beckwith, the military/spec ops/SWAT books by Leroy Thompson, Task Force Orange(about the elite ISA), Task Force BLACK, Dick Couch(former US Navy SEAL).
There are a few fiction novels & books available too. John Weisman, David Morell(who wrote First Blood about Rambo, John J) and a few others.

As for spec ops sidearms, I'd opt for a CDR size 1911a1 .45acp from S-A, Kimber or Colt, a SIG Sauer P228/M11 9x19mm, a SIG Sauer DAK P229R in .40 or .357sig, a Beretta PX4 C 9x19mm or a "old school" Hi-Power 9mm or .40S&W. Hi-Powers from FNH or Browning and the SIG P225 9x19mm were on most hips, thieghs(SAS rigs) & underarms in the 1970s, 1980s & early 1990s.

As for spec ops "long guns" & shotguns, I'd check out the Serbu Super Shorty 12ga, www.serbufirearms.com or the 12ga systems from www.PennArms.com .
FNH P90s, HK UMPs & MP5s & M4s(Colt, HK, Stag Arms, etc) are also used often "down-range". ;)

[KMAX]

Whatever weapons you choose, please be accurate in any description of them. I read a very popular author and many of his descriptions include serious inconsistencies of the firearms including calibers and actions. It is not really that big of a deal. It just sort of distracts from the story.

[kraigwy]

Too bad this is in the Semi forum. If not I'd vote the Model 28 Smith, with the quote "Real Cops Carry Revolvers".

[hlds54]

[QUOTE]Whatever weapons you choose, please be accurate in any description of them. I read a very popular author and many of his descriptions include serious inconsistencies of the firearms including calibers and actions. It is not really that big of a deal. It just sort of distracts from the story./QUOTE]

Dont worry I will. That is something that bothers me too, I was reading an Elmore Leonard book the other day and he mentions a Sig saur .38 automatic. I dont think he ment .38 super.

[SPEMack618]

We, for the most as civvie CCW'ers tend to romanticize the hand gun as the ultimate tool of the warrior against evil, how some ever, that is because we would get a lot of funny looks if we were to go walking about with an M-4A1 carbine.

I would stick to making the protagonist's primary being as authentic as possible and also his most used weapon.

[ClydeFrog]

Retired US Army officer(SF; SE Asia combat veteran) John Plaster wrote in his SOG(Special Ops Group or "Studies & Observations Group") books that he did not like or want pistols in combat. Plaster stated he'd rather pack another 40rd 5.56mm magazine on his web belt.
As a veteran, I can tell you that sidearms are useful for some limited applications but are not always a replacement or better than a SBS(short barrel shotgun) or SMG(sub machine gun) for close range missions.

Author Steven Hunter(I, Sniper; Point of Impact) is another great novel writer. Hunter(an NRA member & respected journalist) goes into DEEP detail in his novels.

CF
ps; I'd add that many spec ops veterans & operators prefer the larger 7.62mm or 7.62x51mm rifle over the smaller 5.56mmNATO.
Some SEALs refer to the 5.56mm M4 as a "poodle-shooter". Lol. :)

[Jim243]

"protagonist in the story are former SF operators, havent decided on which branch"


I would go with former NSA blackops unit personnel (one an ex-Delta Force member and one an ex-Navy Seal) and they would carry the CZ 97 which I believe is the 40 S&W. I would also add a third member of the team a Lt. Col. Linda Day who was a USAF Para-Rescue Ranger and holds two degrees one in micro-biology and a second in germ warfare, she uses a specially equipted CZ 83 with exploding bullets.

Just an idea
Jim

[ClydeFrog]

To my knowledge, the National Security Agency, HQed at Fort Meade MD has no "black ops" unit and does not engage in covert/special ops.
If they have or require any "spec ops" the SECDEF(Sec of Defense) or the US Special Operations Command(USSOCOM) in sunny Tampa FL(MacDill Air Force Base) assigns the ISA(Intel Support Activity or "Knob Turners") or the Grey Fox squadron of the CAG(Combat Applications Group).
The US Army's "Delta Force" was disbanded & re-organized after 9/11/2001 by Vice President Cheney & SECDEF "Big Don" Rumsfeld. ;)

The "CAG" & other US military spec ops do have female members in what they call funny squads but that's all CLASSIFIED, oops...

[Jim243]

Clyde

This is suppost to be a work of fiction (LOL) "Gray Fox" I like that. They are all members of some former units. And the NSA doesn't do black ops, yep your right. By the way they are reading these posts right now.

Jim

[ClydeFrog]

Lt Col Carney(USAF) was sent alone into Iran to set up a NSA/military transmitter prior to the main Delta unit & "Broken Claw" spec ops in the US Iran hostage rescue mission. Carney explains part of that op in his book.
Major Richard Meadows(US Army SF, retired) went into Tehran, Iran NOC(non offical cover) to assist with the mission too.
Meadows, a living legand in US spec ops & MAC-V-SOG veteran worked undercover(covertly) with a small unit that included highly trained female service members in what called; DESERT SUN.
In the action film; The Package(1989, www.imdb.com) the spec ops unit was called the "Sundown Unit". ;)

[kraigwy]

Retired US Army officer(SF; SE Asia combat veteran) John Plaster wrote in his SOG(Special Ops Group or "Studies & Observations Group") books that he did not like or want pistols in combat

Well I wasn't special ops or anything fancy, but as just a sorry old grunt, infantryman in this case I'd say Plaster is full of horse poop.

I carried a 1911a1 and found it quite handy; It beats the hell of of any rifle when in the confines of a slimmy mud hole little peopel used as tunnels, or when a gun ('60) burns up it tides you over until you can get a rifle off a wounded comrad.

Not to mention, when your in the rear it beats carrying a "pig" through the chow line or down town when you sneak out the wire.

[SPEMack618]

It's interesting that you say that Captain Stuart, because I ws thinking about how I was issued a Beretta, whenever I was walking around inside the wire in either just a t-shirt and shorts, or PTs, I would always have my M-4A1.

The only time I actually carried my pistol was when I went outside the wire.

[OsOk-308]

LMAO Thats some good dialogue! I think I'll have to change that a little and paraphrase that (if thats alright with you) so yeah I think that could deff work, thanks!

For sure, I just gave you retorts I would tell my buddies when they would try to knock my choice of handgun. Good luck writing!

[hlds54]

Ok let me give a little more info on my idea. The two characters are no longer in the military, but are working down in mexico creating havoc for the cartels. They are not working for anyone, just doing it for the hell of it.

[silvermane_1]

hids54, i say go with 357sig cal., nato may adopt it in near future. even if nato doesn't, it could be a "personal" sidearm vs. a "issued" sidearm, and your work is fiction, so it doesn't really matter as long as technical side is correct and you've done your research.

[DBLAction454]

If they are no longer in the military then you don't have to worry about what they would be issued. But even if your a retired Vietnam vet does that mean you have to use the old M16? No.

Currently the Navy SEALs have chosen the HK45CT (compact tactical) over the Sig P226 and the MK 23 which was never really used much in the first place because it was a huge sidearm. The switch over to the HK45CT was recent.

And the SEALs use a lot of HK firearms period. HK416 (their version of the M4) HKG36 and now the HK45CT

HK are very expensive but IMHO they are the best. I have a USP .45 and I trust me life to it no problem. Its a tank. Never failed and feels a lot more refined than my glock 30.

Reason I have the glock 30? Easier to carry than a USP and didnt have the $$ for a new HK45c but one should be in my possession soon :)