European made rifles

[warbirdlover]

I've always thought they made the most beautiful rifles in the world, with the fancy wood etc. but I started reading more on the reviews etc and these things are HEAVY. Anywhere from 8-10 lbs. before you put a scope on them and then they don't shoot better (usually not as good) as the lower priced stuff most of us "commoners" have to buy. Made me feel kind of good that owning one of these heavyweights isn't all that great.

Yes, I know there are some (rare) exceptions, like the (drool) Blaser but for the most part if you want to switch barrels, have fancy wood and "sturdy old style construction", you pay the price and carry a heavy load.

Now, some of you guys with these rifles can tell me I'm full of BS! :D

[TX Hunter]

I dont complain about a couple of extra pounds on a fine rifle.. And would gladly loose a tiny bit of accuracy for ultra reliability. But im an odd ball.

[jehu]

Sako Finnlight!:eek:

[603Country]

I've got the Sake 'notlight' and it gets heavier every year. This year I switched over to the Ruger Compact. Still, the Sako is beautiful and the action is bank vault solid and it shoots like a dream. But...it's heavy.

[Bigfatts]

Some of the best rifles I've ever owned have been euro built guns. Of course I lean towards older guns, pre war Mausers, German or Swiss stalking rifles, etc. Whether commercial or custom. I have an Oberndorf commercial Mauser in .30-06 that shoots like it's laser guided. Weighs 7.5 lbs or so. I have shot Blaser and Kreighoff rifles before and I'll say while they are a little heavier they are also incredibly well balanced and the quality is amazing. And yes, they look wonderful as well. The ones I've ahot were in larger calibers: .375, .458, etc and they weren't exactly target rifles but they're as accurate as just about anything else in those calibers. I would own one if I had the money, maybe some day.

[jmr40]

It is about hunting style, and technique. In Europe hunters travel very short distances to the hunting area, usually hunt from shooting boxes out of the weather, and often hunt later into the day. At times where shooting is illegal here. The common man does not hunt in Europe, only the very wealthy and they place more emphasis on style, than function.

I hunt on public land, carry my rifle for up to 10 miles a day in some pretty steep country. I'd chunk one of those 10 lb. art pieces in a river within a few days. I'll take a stainless synthetic rifle that shoots 1/2" groups, that weighs around 6- 7 lbs., with scope and mounts included any day. And for about 1/10 the money.

[warbirdlover]

jmr40

Exactly! :p I put this thread up to make us poor people feel better about our rifles! :D

[TX Hunter]

Warbird Lover , and JMRO some of the poor people, myself included love to hunt with heavy European made rifles, most of ours are Military Surplus, and often times cheaper than the rifles the regular poor people use. LoL

[JerryM]

In my youth, which has fled, I hunted various places. I spent 3.5 years in Alaska in the Army. I hunted sheep and goats, moose, bears, and caribou.

When hunting sheep a buddy and I would hire a bush pilot who would let us out in a stream bed, and we would climb at least a full day to get to timberline. Everything we need for a week or so was on our backs.

Anyone who has done that is very aware of the weight of the rifle and even binoculars. There is no way I would carry a 10 lb rifle on such a hunt. My M70 pre 64 Fwt was not as light as I would have liked. If I were to get a new rifle today it would have to weigh not over 7.5 lbs with scope, mount, sling, and loaded.

I recall Jack O'Connor saying that you carry a rifle more than you shoot it, and weight is an important factor. My own experience confirms that.

Jerry

[chris in va]

I think my CZ 527 weighs about 6.5#.

[Fullboar]

Yes they are absolute Junk I don't know anyone who would want a Blaser, Sako, Sauer, Merkel, Schultz and Larsen, CZ/Brno, Steyr, Manlicher, Voere, Husqvarna, Fabrique Nationale, Tikka, Anschutz, Suisse Arms, Pedersoli, Parker Hale ect and don't get me started on all those junk double rifle makers or those crappy Euro rifle scopes. I think if you have a look through alot of those rifle makers products, you will find they make rifles just as light as most US rifle makers, will they be as cheap well "no" but look at what they are and what rifles cost in those countries and how much the wages are for those workers. You will also find alot of hunters in European countries (especially Scandinavian countries) hunt just as hard as US hunters.

[warbirdlover]

Your opinion is expected Fullboar. But for the most part they're heavier then the norm here. Fancier wood weighs more, sturdier construction weighs more. We realize the craftsmanship in these rifles. Although I wasn't talking about Tikkas and similar. And I certainly didn't mean European scopes.

I've always thought they made the most beautiful rifles in the world, with the fancy wood etc. but I started reading more on the reviews etc and these things are HEAVY. Anywhere from 8-10 lbs. before you put a scope on them and then they don't shoot better (usually not as good) as the lower priced stuff most of us "commoners" have to buy. Made me feel kind of good that owning one of these heavyweights isn't all that great.

Yes, I know there are some (rare) exceptions, like the (drool) Blaser but for the most part if you want to switch barrels, have fancy wood and "sturdy old style construction", you pay the price and carry a heavy load.

Now, some of you guys with these rifles can tell me I'm full of BS!

[Fullboar]

Your opinion is expected Fullboar. But for the most part they're heavier then the norm here. Fancier wood weighs more, sturdier construction weighs more. We realize the craftsmanship in these rifles. Although I wasn't talking about Tikkas and similar. And I certainly didn't mean European scopes.

Yes I know what you ment and I was just being sarcastic with my reply. While also not my cup of tea (old school euro styled rifle) especially for hunting they do make some nice rifles in Europe. Give me a nice Stainless/Synthetic/Laminated light to medium weight rifle anyday but to me rifles are nothing but tools and I'm pretty hard on them as well.

[oneounceload]

Yes they are absolute Junk I don't know anyone who would want a Blaser, Sako, Sauer, Merkel, Schultz and Larsen, CZ/Brno, Steyr, Manlicher, Voere, Husqvarna, Fabrique Nationale, Tikka, Anschutz, Suisse Arms, Pedersoli, Parker Hale ect and don't get me started on all those junk double rifle makers or those crappy Euro rifle scopes. I think if you have a look through alot of those rifle makers products, you will find they make rifles just as light as most US rifle makers, will they be as cheap well "no" but look at what they are and what rifles cost in those countries and how much the wages are for those workers. You will also find alot of hunters in European countries (especially Scandinavian countries) hunt just as hard as US hunters.

You left out the Austrians - Ollendorf, Hofer, and from Germany - Hartmann and Weiss. Not everyone can appreciate or want to own a fine Swiss watch or drive a high-end car either. Some can, and do, most do not. matters not - if you like what you have, why bother to disparage someone else's choice because it might cost more than yours? We seem to hear it all the time on here and other forums how mad folks get when "THE RICH SNOBS" look down on us commoners for shooting a cheap gun - why would the reverse sentiment be any more acceptable?

Accept those guns for what they - the epitome of the gun maker's craft where handwork and craftsmanship take precedent over price point


In Europe hunters travel very short distances to the hunting area, usually hunt from shooting boxes out of the weather, and often hunt later into the day

You mean like white tail deer hunters who sit in blinds and tree stands from dawn to dusk? Or those who hunt hogs at night from blinds after dark with night vision equipment?

[warbirdlover]

Well, offer me a nice Blaser R8 or J.P. Sauer 202 for the same price as a Remington 700 SPS and see which one I choose!!!! :D

(No, I wouldn't choose the Remington.... :rolleyes: )

My point was not to discourage those from buying them but to make us poor people feel better about what we've got... :)

[oneounceload]

And my point was to make sure you enjoy and take pride in whatever your budget and lifestyle allows, but don't go knocking the guy who CAN afford the ones we all dream about in the nicer guns mags.......;)

[warbirdlover]

I didn't knock anyone. I just brought up the weight. Sorry. :o

[Fullboar]

Also left out RWS in Austria (Titan) and Zastava in Serbia and I am sure I will think of a few more. One thing I have noticed the Europeans doing with there rifles that the Americans dont is switch barrels and take downs.

[pbrktrt]

As much as I'd love to own any of the above, I just can't find a fault with the Vanguard I have.

[michaelcj]

Well there are all the Euro makes mentioned that for the most part are every bit the rifle of most of the current U.S. makes but you can take it a bit further with the likes of:

Rigby
Holland and Holland
Westley Richards
Purdy
Jefferies

Who were building first quality magazine rifles when the best we had to offer were converted Krags [Swedish I believe] and early "soft" 1903s in either their military form or "sporterized". Griffin and Howe, Sedgley, and Abercrombey followed suit with our British cousins producing fine rifles on military actions until Winchester and Remington got into the game in the 1930's with the 54 and 30.

For that matter it all goes back to that "European" ancestor the Mauser.

Mike J

[warbirdlover]

Right before I started to work for the transmission company I retired from the CEO died (John Batten) who was a famous sheep hunter and had a full page article dedicated to him in the NRA North American Hunter magazine. He had a gun collection worth millions. He had the old original, unfired Spanish rifles from Columbus' days, and everything in between. He was also on the advisory board for Holland and Holland and after he died they bought his whole gun collection. The whole factory was busy crating up his huge collection. Thousands of guns worth thousands each! Hundreds of crates full of some of the most sought after collectors guns in the world. It was something to see.

Sorry to jack my thread... :D Back to the subject. :rolleyes:

[Bushmaster1313]

a gun collection worth millions and he still died.

What's going to happen to us with our more modest collections?

[michaelcj]

Warbird, another short highjack story. About 15 years ago I was in London visiting friends and decided to visit Holland and Holland on Bond St.. As soon as we walked through the door I'm sure it was obvious to the staff that me and my brit friend were not going to be able to afford even their used toilet paper tubes. Have to admit I was prepared to get a diplomatic bum's rush.

Instead one of the Jr. "associates" took us in hand for almost 3 hours, upstairs and down, every case opened and handed everything to fondle and pet.
When it was time to leave they handed me a HARDcover catalogue and a monogramed neck scarf and thanked ME for gracing them with a "pilgrimage"!

When I got back to the states I wrote a letter to the "president" of H&H with cudos to his young staff member and thanks. He wrote back "longhand" explaining that was the way they had operated for a couple of centuries and intended to continue in the tradition. And thanked me again for taking the time to visit their "shop".

Wonder how the treatment at winchester or remington or even dakota would compare.

Fond memory.

Mike J

[warbirdlover]

Very cool michaelcj

:eek:

[Buzzcook]

I have handle some light European rifles. I did shoot a double rifle that weighed something like 20#, not the norm though.

http://www.steyrarms.com/products/hunting-rifles/classic/
http://www.steyrarms.com/uploads/pics/classic.jpeg
3.3kg Not too heavy for this old fat man.

[phil mcwilliam]

My Sako Bavarian (wood stock ), weighs 7 1/2 pounds, or about the same as a Winchester Model 70 with wood stock. Sako also has a Finnlite range of lighter rifles. I prefer a rifle around 7 -8 pounds for hunting purposes & I do a lot of walking through the mountains. Once you start talking larger calibers such as .375 H&H Magnum & similar, I actually prefer a rifle that weighs 10 pounds plus.

[Auto426]

Warbird, another short highjack story. About 15 years ago I was in London visiting friends and decided to visit Holland and Holland on Bond St.. As soon as we walked through the door I'm sure it was obvious to the staff that me and my brit friend were not going to be able to afford even their used toilet paper tubes. Have to admit I was prepared to get a diplomatic bum's rush.

Instead one of the Jr. "associates" took us in hand for almost 3 hours, upstairs and down, every case opened and handed everything to fondle and pet.
When it was time to leave they handed me a HARDcover catalogue and a monogramed neck scarf and thanked ME for gracing them with a "pilgrimage"!

When I got back to the states I wrote a letter to the "president" of H&H with cudos to his young staff member and thanks. He wrote back "longhand" explaining that was the way they had operated for a couple of centuries and intended to continue in the tradition. And thanked me again for taking the time to visit their "shop".

Wonder how the treatment at winchester or remington or even dakota would compare.

Fond memory.

Mike J

That's amazing. I likely would have never even attempted to walk in the place, because I, like you, can't even come close to affording the cheapest thing in their catalog. Double rifles are one of those odd interests of mine though, I know hardly anything about them. They are relics of a bygone era, and I'm the type of person who is hopelessly stuck in the past.

[Bigfatts]

Heh, the double is still plenty alive, just not in the US- chalk that up to a lack of dangerous game. I had one of the recently imported Remington stamped Baikal doubles and it was a lot of fun. I'd love a nicer one, maybe ine of the Pedersoli double .45-70s.

[warbirdlover]

I was looking at some Merkels. $8000 on up for them puppies!! Need to win the lottery first. :eek:

[Bigfatts]

Yea Merkel, Blaser and a couple others make doubles for under $10k. If you're lucky you can also find a BRNO for ~$2k, but they came in light calibers, see lots of them in 7x57. Superposed too. Very nice little rifles.

[WildBill45]

My .458 Lott CZ is a tad heavy, but trust me when I tell ya it is a good thing; heavy big bores don't need scopes in most applications they were purchased for either! Mine is my bear deterrent when beating the bush in Alaska, and for my final Africa visit to take finally take a Buff.

Most Americans, and this includes me, are overweight and could lose 10 pounds before a mountain hunt easily, and save the cost of a super-light custom rifle!:D