Dump CZ-75b for EAA Witness Elite Match or STI Spartan?

[Martowski]

Considering dumping my CZ-75b for something closer to more of a target style gun. I'd like a "9" with a crisp, light trigger w/o much creep and the CZ definitely doesn't fit the bill.

Any thoughts on the EAA Witness Elite Match or the STI Spartan? Also curious to hear thoughts from folks who have owned or shot both the EAA and the STI in 9mm. I owned a plain Witness 9mm about 10 years ago but got rid of it. Now I'm hearing the 9mm Witnesses are all built on larger frames? Not sure how that would feel vs. the Witness I had awhile back.

Let me add that one big negative in my mind is EAA's customer service, whereas that's a positive with STI.

[sgms]

Haven't used the STI enough to form an opinion but do have a witness elite match and find it an excellent fit for my hand with a great trigger and easy, smooth handling. Don't know for sure about the frame size for the 9, mines a 45, though I think they are near the same if not the same size.

[Martowski]

I'm leaning more toward the STI and have for some time (almost bought one last month but bought a Walther PPQ instead). Really just looking to see if there's anything the Witness will give me that the Spartan won't (besides capacity which isn't a concern).

[Sarge]

The STI is pretty well thought of among the 1911 crowd.

[Jim Watson]

I would think a trigger job on the CZ would leave you in better shape than a trade for the Witness copy.
http://czcustom.com/sanditriggerworksada.aspx

There are others you might get references to.

[chris in va]

I have to agree, get a trigger job on the CZ instead of having to go through the buy/sell process all over again.

[Walt Sherrill]

The guns you're considering as alternatives to your CZ are more expensive alternatives. For just $100-$200 or so more, you can get your CZ tuned to do anything they'll do, with comparable (or better) reliability. (You can spend even less if you can find a competent local gunsmith.)

After you buy and sell, you'll be out far more than $200.

You could consider sending your gun to the CZ Custom Shop, too, and let them do their magic.

[Martowski]

Now considering some parts from CGW to make some improvements. For $88 a custom drop in hammer and sear sounds like it might be an ice fix.

[Dashunde]

For range work I'd definitely trade in the CZ for the STI in 9mm.

Suggesting he sink a bunch of money into a CZ to try to turn it into a good target pistol is just bad advice compared to the inexpensive STI.
CZ's are great field/duty pistols, but that $500 CZ can easily end up costing more than the $650 STI and the results may still be just so-so at best.

The STI will always be a very nice gun from the start that will hold its value and doesnt need more money to be a good range pistol.

[sirgilligan]

I have wanted an STI for a long time. I have interest in the Trojan in .45 ACP.

How many rounds a month or year do you average? Or maybe how many rounds do you have through the CZ?

[Walt Sherrill]

Suggesting he sink a bunch of money into a CZ to try to turn it into a good target pistol is just bad advice compared to the inexpensive STI.
CZ's are great field/duty pistols, but that $500 CZ can easily end up costing more than the $650 STI and the results may still be just so-so at best.

A bunch of money? Arguably less than he'll spend upgrading to the other guns suggested. Do you own or have you shot one of less expensive STIs? My only experience with STI guns are the more expensive models. I suspect that not all STIs are created equal.

The part of this discussion nobody seems to want to address is what the shift to a new gun will cost the OP.

Does anyone think the OP will get $500 in trade (or in an outright) sale for that used CZ? More likely, he'll get $400 in an outright sale, or $300 in a dealer trade-in. That means he's still $200 - $350 out of pocket for the STI. Will the low-end STI gun greatly out-perform the CZ it's replacing? Possibly, but I doubt it.

CZ triggers, straight from the factory, aren't that good -- but get better after 400+ rounds down range. (Which is why one of those responding above asked about the number of rounds through the gun.) Guns sold from or through the Custom Shop come tuned, and are well worth the extra cost; you can find some of them in local gun shops.

Adding $100 - $200 to the money already spent on the CZ (depending on whether he can work done locally, or must ship it to a gunsmith), isn't that bad. And he should then have a gun that shoots with the STI Spartan for equal (or probably) less money, and will do it while holding an extra 5-8 rounds, depending on the mags used.

It would appear, too, that the Original Poster obviously hasn't visited the CZ Forum, where instructions for "do it yourself trigger jobs" can be found. www.czfirearms.us/ Check out the CZ HOME GUNSMITHING area on that site. Some of the instructions include detailed photos.

The OP should also check out CAJUN GUN WORKS www.cajungunworks.com for other mods and enhancements, including triggers, sears, and hammers that will make the gun more enjoyable and easier to shoot well. The CZ Custom Shop also has options and parts. czcustom.com/ Schmeky, the gunsmith at Cajun Gun Works works with both CZ and 1911s. He knows his stuff.

If someone really likes the 1911 platform, and is willing to spend a little extra, then by all means, he or she should go for the STI -- but spend a bit more than their least expensive gun, and get something special. It'll hurt at the time of purchase, but a year later, you'll thank yourself.

The Witness line is fine, too, and my only concern there would be service, if something isn't right. Problems are not likely, but a real concern to keep in mind.

I've been a big fan of CZs for years, but I like other guns, too. I only have a CZ-85 Combat, at the moment, along with a custom AT-84s, and a Sphinx. I also have several other fine guns, including a Gray Guns P228 (with the short reset trigger), a SIG 220 Super Match, and a P226 X-Five Competition in .40. (Unhappily, I just can't get the P226 X-Five to shoot the way I think it should, but that's probably me. It sometimes takes me a while to adjust to a new gun.)

.

[mkk41]

Though I have utmost respect for the fine guns Tanfoglio makes , I would question why you would go from a genuine CZ to a copy , albeit a good copy?

Plus CZ offers a few target/competition models , like the Tactical Sport and others.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/by-category/full-size/ .

[surveyor]

I have no experience wit the Sti..

and can't compare apples to apples in same caliber with a witness match and a cz 85

but I can compare a witness match and standard witness steel, to each other in 45 acp,

and try to compare a cz85 combat that has been touched by a good smith before I got it..

all 3 are cz pattern pistols, all 3 are single action
the match is just a little better in the trigger dept than the standard after replacing the trigger with a adjustable match trigger and polishing it..
short light trigger pull, good reset on both..

now the cz 85 combat single action I have with no firing pin block.. well that trigger is light, but the reset is smooth and very short.. it is quite noticeable improvement over the other 2..reset is noticeably shorter..

so much that when comparing it to a standard 85 combat 2 tone, the wife wanted a single action trigger in hers..
its nice, but not what mine is..more like the witness triggers, note only change was trigger and polishing trigger bar..

so cz triggers can be made to be very good..I'd like to know the smith that worked on mine..
it makes shooting the kadet kit so much more enjoyable..

and yes I do like 1911's as well..have a gold cup and combat commander.. needless to say the gold cup is nicer than the commander in the trigger dept.. but that's without any work ..

[Dashunde]

CZ triggers, straight from the factory, aren't that good -- but get better after 400+ rounds down range

And thats being generous and kind... mine was absolutely horrible, and it was a SA version too.
Many rounds later it was still gritty, even after following their home smithing instructions.
On top of that it had a very sloppy safety that allowed too much sear movement - no way would I have installed a shorter toothed hammer in that thing.

I bought my 75SA for $520 and sold it for $465.

For range work I think the STI 1911 is a much better target pistol platform to start with... The 1911 trigger system alone is worth the cost and hassle to swap guns.

[Martowski]

Wow, lot of varied opinions here. What I'm gathering is that STI users are pretty happy overall (and I've read some positive reports from Spartan users), but the debate seems to be around whether to pick one up at the expense of the CZ + another $250 or so. Witness Elite Match owners seem pretty content as well, but the frame/grips don't sound like they are "slim" by any means (I recall my old 9mm Witness being slimmer but I believe that would have been on a small frame vs. the large frame the 9mm's are on these days). But not hearing a lot of people advocating moving away from the CZ in favor of the Witness.

FWIW, my CZ probably has around 300 - 500 rounds downfield from me, so not a lot of heavy use. And it was purchased used but in excellent condition.

At this point I'm going to continue thinking on this one and not do anything "right now." I'm hesitant to get rid of the CZ and don't want to do it on an impulse, especially if another $100 or so on some parts could turn my CZ into a new gun. Will be doing some more reading and talking to folks about different parts, and will be taking my CZ for another range trip or two as well with the current stock configuration.

Thanks all for the input and the thought provoking comments; that's why I enjoy this forum.

[MikeRussell]

Yep, the newer Witness pistols are all the large frame now, so if you had an older variation with the small frame the newer ones won't be like you remembered.

I've got an Elite Match in .38 Super, great pistol, just don't shoot it much (maybe 200rnds total). I've been looking at doing the exact opposite as you...trading it for another CZ (97 or 75). I love my SP01, especially after I reworked the sear, hammer,& spring setup.

[Dashunde]

At this point I'm going to continue thinking on this one and not do anything "right now."

Thats a really good approach.
Despite my SA's trigger I do miss the gun.
It just had a great all-purpose feel about it and it never failed, ever, completely 100% that one was.

Maybe look at it in terms of usefulness - Do you like your pistols to be segmented and bought for a specific purpose?
I sold my 75 to fund another carry pistol, which I do find much more "useful".

[loose_holster_dan]

youtube "sear spring flip" for the 75b (non-omega). this simple procedure will fix the stock trigger just fine. for the omega, just get some lighter springs and shoot a couple hundred rounds. it will be nice and crispy.