Long range ar

[kxkid]

I am looking to build a long range ar. Talking out to 1000 or more and still be supersonic. I have looked at the 6.5 Grendel but there's not much load data. The bbl would be 22-24".

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[RT]

The LaRue OBR is what you seek.

[madcratebuilder]

The best choice in the AR15 platform would be the 6.5 Grendel. Capable of staying super sonic to well past 1000 yards with the right loads.

In the past few months Bill Alexander has released the trade mark rights and SAAMI has accepted the Grendel. More and more barrel makers are offering the Grendel now. Wolf well be releasing low cost steel case ammo down the road.

Some good reading at the links below.

http://www.6mmbr.com/65grendel.html

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/index.php?

I've had my Grendel for a year now and I'm very happy with the performance. It well out preform my Noveske 21" AR10 starting around 900 yds, the point the .308 goes sub sonic.

[tobnpr]

Plenty of load data and discussion on 65Grendel.com, in addition to the published date from A.A.

It's hands-down the best choice for what you want to do.
Haven't had a chance to stretch the legs yet on my son's newly built one (we went with intermediate length (18") barrel, but even that length still delivers acceptable long range velocities.

No different to build, just the bolt/barrel assembly (ours has the M4 ramps), and mags from A.A.

First time I reloaded the 123 Amax's I saw why they're capable of long range. The high BC bullets are extremely long, probably half of it (I didn't measure) gets seated down into the case! Recoil slightly heavier than the 7.62 x 39...

[Marquezj16]

Look for Kraigwy. He has some really good input.

[customaquatics]

if it were me i'd do a AR-10 build for long range

[tobnpr]

Why an AR-10 for punching paper at long range??

More expensive to build.

The Grendel has less kinetic energy at 1000 yards (obviously), but more velocity, less drop, and less drift...

So, where's your advantage???

[blacksky]

Why an AR-10 for punching paper at long range??

More expensive to build.
The Grendel has less kinetic energy at 1000 yards (obviously), but more velocity, less drop, and less drift...

So, where's your advantage???

Because it works better!

[Buzzcook]

First a 22 or 24" barrel will do fine.

I'd just go with .223. It expands the areas you can compete in, it's cheaper, is capable enough to reach 1000yds.

[kraigwy]

I'd just go with .223. It expands the areas you can compete in, it's cheaper, is capable enough to reach 1000yds.

Yeap

[TxFlyFish]

tried an OBR 308 to 1000 the other day mounted with new 20x leupold M5 locking...it was a first time for me 2/5 hits, the person next to me was 3/5.

[tobnpr]

I'd just go with .223. It expands the areas you can compete in, it's cheaper, is capable enough to reach 1000yds.

I'll have to take exception to that.
Capable, and practical, are two different animals. Any .223 bullet you can launch from an AR-15 is going to be subsonic at 1000 meters.

Some of the heavy VLD's may get there, but you're not going to send them at mag length from an AR platform.

Shooting even VLD's at 1000 yards is a challenge for the best of shooters. If the wind is blowing, forget about it. Stay home.

Given that the OP's stated used for the rifle is long range, suggesting that .223 be the caliber of choice is just, well...wrong in my opinion.

And any suggestion that it would be "better"- in any capacity for that purposed over the 6.5 Grendel cannot be supported by any factual ballistics.

I love the .223 for short to medium range and we own several.

But it's limitations need to be acknowledged.

[kraigwy]

Tobnpr,

\
hope you dont go to Perry or the CMP Eastern and Western Games' Service Rifle Shooters that. It would break their hearts because the are doing quite well with 223s at 1000.

but you're not going to send them at mag length from an AR platform.

77 SMKs are loaded to Mag lenght. Mine leave the barrel right around 2650 FPS and are super sonic at 1000. 1266 to be exact. Sure the heavier bullets, loaded long, work better. I use 80 SMKs at 1000. I'm talking 20 inch barrel, nothing exotic.

223s are actually faster at 1000 then my 175 SMK 308s. The wind deflection for my 175s is .91 MOA per MPH of wind. My 77s deflection at 1000 is .85 MOA.

If you can judge wind within 1 MPH, (which there aren't many who can), you're talking a .06 MOA difference.

There is a reason why Service Rifle shooters went to the AR from the M14/M1A. Its because they preform better.

I've shot several 1000 yard matches with the AR, IT WORKS. One only has to look at todays AR scores and yesterdays M14 scores to see that.

[Buzzcook]

Deleted

[tobnpr]

According to the online Hornady ballistic calculator,
77 SMK has a BC of .362
With a MV of 2650 (your #), velocities as follows:
100 yds. 2409
300 1965
600 1411
800 1151
1000 1000

1000 fps is subsonic by 116 fps...

But I'm not really into discussing specifics. I'm sure you have a ballistic calculator that says something different.

I stand by my opinion that the .223 is not an optimal caliber for 1000 yards, from any platform. I never said it couldn't be done, and it certainly is a challenge for skilled triggerman.

I'll take a .260, 7mm.-08, or just about any of the other 6.5's , .308, you name it over a .223 for 1000 yards any day, every day.

To say to the OP that it is a "better" selection- for him- than the 6.5 Grendel for 1000 yard shots is just bad advice IMO.

That's all I've got to say...signing off on this one...

[kraigwy]

I used Bryan Litz' (Berger Bullets) Ballistic Calculator which allows me to use G7 as oppose to G1 (form factor) which I found gives a better picture of what happens down range.

I have also fired several 1000 yard matches using the 223 and found it bears out what Mr Litc calculator says.

I don't know how many 1000 yard matches you've fired, but I do know, checking the results of the National Matches at Camp Perry, bear out the fact that 223s DO WORK AT 1000 YARDS. Not only do they work, they win matches.

All one really has to do is pull targets at a 1000 yard match, hearing the bullets "crack" over head, to know they are super sonic.

[jonnyc]

How about an AR-30 in .338?

[mapsjanhere]

Long range AR so reminds me of this (http://www.misfittoysracing.com/Yugo/index.htm). Sure you could, but why would you ;)

[kraigwy]

Long range AR so reminds me of this. Sure you could, but why would you

Simple Answer: Because they are winning the matches.

[kxkid]

I should have mentioned that it is not for matches but for some day I want to hunt game at long ranges.

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[Palmetto-Pride]

I should have mentioned that it is not for matches but for some day I want to hunt game at long ranges.

Man I love your confidence.................let us know how killing game at 1000 yds works out for ya......:eek:

[mapsjanhere]

Simple Answer: Because they are winning the matches

What kind of matches Kraig? Matches limited to US military style rifles or matches for 1000 yard shooters with free choice of weapon?

[kraigwy]

1000 yard service rifle

[Jim243]

I should have mentioned that it is not for matches but for some day I want to hunt game at long ranges.

Need to learn to walk before you can run. Start at 300 yards and work your way up.

Try Hornady 60 grain V-Max #22281, BC 0.265 SD 0.171 (not for large game) C.O.L. 2.250, powder IMR 8208 XBR (load to your rifle for pressure) max fps 3,000.

In one of these: 24 inch barrel, 1:9 twist.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0544.jpg

[Dan44149]

I had no problems putting 10rds in the head of a modified E target (man sillohuette) at 500m consistently with open sites year after year... and no problem hitting bulls-eyes in USMC rifle matches 6-800m with open sites. If you're looking for a long-range paper puncher, the 5.56/.223 is still a good option to 1000+, but you need to have the skill. There is no magic cartridge load that will reach that far forgivingly.

If you're looking for a long-range knockdown... look at something chambered in 7.62x51 (.308) like the SR-25 REPR or .30-06 in a bolt-action.

Either way, shooting out that far you'll want to look at some good optics. The front site post of an M4/M16 covers the entire modified E target at 500m, and almost the entire target/background at 6-800m... so good optics and learn how to use the trajectory knobs, as you won't want to "Kentucky windage" a round at that distance.

[kraigwy]

That's pretty close.

The average width of the front sight on the M16/AR is .063-.065, meaning it will completely cover the 19 inch E-Shillette at 300 yards.

Which means you can use it as a range finder. If the front sight is twice the width of the target, its 600 yards away, if the front sight is half the width of the front sight, its 150 yards away.

With a bit of practice you can get pretty accurate with your range finding using the iron sights.

[ripnbst]

Timeout, are we talking killing animals at say 700 yards or putting holes in paper at 700 yards?

For paper the easy choice is 6.5 grendel. Can .223 do it? Yep. Is it better than the 6.5? Nope.

If you are building/buying with that goal/mission in mind why not get the better option? Rifles chambered in 6.5 Grendel do tend to be a little more expensive though as compared to the exact same rifle chambered in .223 for whatever reason. 6.5 Grendel also prefers a 22" barrel at a minimum if you are pushing it out far, and you are.

Now for hunting at a long distance. I am going to point you towards an AR-10 (.308) or a .300 WIN MAG bolt action or something else .30 cal or larger. Maybe .338 Lapua. What do you want to shoot at long distances for animals? You are going to need enough retained energy in the round to be able to do damage to the animal to ensure you can kill it. Neither the .223 nor the 6.5 will have poop for energy at the distances you are talking about. I think you need to reconsider what exactly you are trying to accomplish.

Check this out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LAEOJbyklI&feature=related), these guys are using a .338 Lapua. You need energy at distance.

[Dan44149]

Timeout, are we talking killing animals at say 700 yards or putting holes in paper at 700 yards?

For paper the easy choice is 6.5 grendel. Can .223 do it? Yep. Is it better than the 6.5? Nope.

I've done it on paper consistantly for years with a 5.56/.223 as have many others. Bottom line, as I said in my previous post... there is no magic cartridge that will replace marksmanship. No cartridge is forgiving for marksmanship errors, or lack of ability. If everyone could shoot that far, and do it well, we would all be snipers and there would be no need for Stone Bay or any other Marksmanship Training Unit.

You can quote whatever ballistics you want, I don't care. You are entitled to your opinion... but I've seen with my own eyes and my own trigger finger, and my own range score cards, consistent results day in and day out with the 5.56/.223

[Dan44149]

That's pretty close.

The average width of the front sight on the M16/AR is .063-.065, meaning it will completely cover the 19 inch E-Shillette at 300 yards.

Which means you can use it as a range finder. If the front sight is twice the width of the target, its 600 yards away, if the front sight is half the width of the front sight, its 150 yards away.

With a bit of practice you can get pretty accurate with your range finding using the iron sights.

Have done this many times... I have also got a good site alignment/site picture by using the target background for spacing to score a hit... works well if you have time for ranging KD before nesting.