A question from an Ignorant: rimfire pistols

[Pond, James Pond]

Why is it that the rimfire pistols I see that have that distinctive WW2 Luger profile are only used for rimfire 22 cartridges.

To put it another way, is there a reason why this design has never been utilised to fire the likes of 9mm CF cartridges etc?

No reason for asking other than the fact that I don't know the answer...:confused:

[Mike38]

Could you be talking about the Ruger Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 pistols? I guess they kind of look like a Luger?

I would absolutely love it if Ruger made this pistol in .32 S&W Long wad cutter. It would be perfect for entry level center fire in Conventional Pistol (Bullseye) competition. I don’t think it would be very hard to do. Start with the heavy barrel model, bore it to .32, different magazine and bolt, should work. I would buy one tomorrow if they could keep the price below $600.

[Pond, James Pond]

Yes, I do mean the Mk 1-3 type pistols

[Walt Sherrill]

Lugers are fine weapons, and they're generally quite accurate, but they are single-stack (a single column of ammo) and hold relatively few rounds.

The design offers no real advantages over newer designs, and a few drawbacks.

While the Ruger and Luger share a similar profile, they really function differently and are greatly different internally. The Ruger design, because it is blowback design (rather than a locked breech) that uses a heavy bolt and spring to manage the action, would be difficult to adapt to a 9x19 or larger round.

.

[Buzzcook]

It's my understanding that Ruger based the Mk series loosely on the Japanese Nambu.

[LloydXmas250]

It's my understanding that Ruger based the Mk series loosely on the Japanese Nambu.

Exactly what I was going to say. I read that Ruger got a nambu from a returning WWII vet and used it as the inspiration for the MkI.

[dogtown tom]

Pond, James Pond Why is it that the rimfire pistols I see that have that distinctive WW2 Luger profile are only used for rimfire 22 cartridges....

Traditionally, many .22 rimfire pistols have used a rather steep grip angle to accomodate a magazine that would reliablly feed a rimmed cartridge.

Colt Woodsman, High Standards, Beretta Neos, Ruger, Browning Buckmark all have rather steep feed angles in their magazines.

[Cheapshooter]

To put it another way, is there a reason why this design has never been utilised to fire the likes of 9mm CF cartridges etc?

The Ruger Mk series of pistols, as well as all 22 rimfire guns are straight blow-back design. That is the slide or bolt is not "locked" as in most centerfires of 9MM and above. The Ruger Mk series as designed would not be compatible with the higher pressure of the 9MM centerfire cartrige.

[divil]

Exactly what I was going to say. I read that Ruger got a nambu from a returning WWII vet and used it as the inspiration for the MkI.

Isn't the nambu based on the luger? It certainly has a similar appearance.

Actually I'd compare the Glock design in this case. It doesn't look anything like a Luger in terms of profile, but it has a similar steep grip angle.

You don't see many modern pistols with the same profile as the Luger because, well, form follows function, and the way the Luger functioned proved to be inferior to John M. Browning's slide-operated tilting barrel design. So, virtually all modern automatics of large caliber share the profile of Browning's designs instead, because they function the same way. .22LR pistols are different because, as Walt Sherrill and Cheapshooter pointed out, they use a blowback design that isn't really suitable for larger calibers, and doesn't require a large slide that covers the barrel.

[Walt Sherrill]

As someone else noted, many of the .22 designs require a more steeply angled magazine (and surrounding grip) to handle the RIMMED .22 cartridge. (Those rimmed cartridges make it more difficult to have more than 10 rounds in the mag, too.)

Wikipedia's information about Ruger says that Bill Ruger made some copies of the Nambu pistol, before starting up his gun business -- perhaps thinking to sell a down-sized version. He later incorporated some of the Nambu design into his later .22 pistol, along with his own improvements.

They DO look quite similar.

[Winchester_73]

Isn't the nambu based on the luger? It certainly has a similar appearance.

Grip angle does not make 1 gun based upon another. The nambu and luger are very different. Consider the actions, safety location, take down, even cartridge and you will quickly see that the ONLY similarity is the grip angle which alone means little. Perhaps if the nambu was based on the luger it would not have been the worst WWII sidearm.

For the record, the Ruger MK series guns are closely based upon the nambu. The reason why everyone mentions the luger is simply because it is more famous and a superficial look at both the Ruger and Luger notices that the grip angles are nearly the same, but that's where the similarities basically end.

[carguychris]

The nambu and luger are very different. Consider the actions... For the record, the Ruger MK series guns are closely based upon the nambu.
Correct. FWIW the Nambu Type 14, like the Ruger Mk series, has a blowback unlocked-breech action with a roughly tubular bolt that is cocked by pulling its protruding end to the rear. This design is quite simple, easy to operate, and inexpensive to manufacture- the reasons Ruger adopted it.

The Luger is a locked-breech design that uses an unconventional "toggle" or "scissors" action consisting of a pair of jointed arms that initially recoil together, then unlock and pivot upwards to extract the fired case. This action works well when it's fed good ammo, kept clean, and maintained properly, but it tends to be fussy when exposed to dirt and/or underpowered or improperly shaped cartridges. It also requires lots of precision machining, making it expensive to manufacture. For these reasons, very few (if any) subsequent automatic pistol designs have used a Luger-type action.
Perhaps if the nambu was based on the luger it would not have been the worst WWII sidearm.
IMHO this statement is a little unfair. The Type 14 was reportedly quite accurate, inexpensive to built, tolerant of dirt, and easy to shoot well. It just fired a relatively underpowered cartridge- a necessary compromise to allow a blowback action- and it had an excessively fragile firing pin. WWII Japanese holsters were actually made with little pockets for holding spare pins. :rolleyes:

That said, the later Type 94 was truly awful, and featured an infamous external trigger bar that could cause an AD if pistol is squeezed from the sides. :eek:

[drail]

As someone else pointed out the main reason for the grip angle is dictated by having to stack long rimmed cases in the magazine without making it curved.

[divil]

Grip angle does not make 1 gun based upon another. The nambu and luger are very different. Consider the actions, safety location, take down, even cartridge and you will quickly see that the ONLY similarity is the grip angle which alone means little.

Cool...I didn't know that!

As someone else pointed out the main reason for the grip angle is dictated by having to stack long rimmed cases in the magazine without making it curved.

I'm unconvinced of this. There are plenty of .22 pistols with more conventional grip angles. The 22/45 - by Ruger, for example! But there are many more. In my experience - which I admit is limited - the Ruger with the Luger-style grip does not feed more reliably than other more conventional designs.

Plus, there's the Glock, which has a grip quite like the Luger, but doesn't use rimmed cases, at least not in the most popular calibres. I think some people prefer it, and that that is the main reason.

[dahermit]

It's my understanding that Ruger based the Mk series loosely on the Japanese Nambu. No, the Ruger .22 pistol was based on the Ruger hand drill.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/02/ruger-hand-drill.html

[Jim Watson]

To put it another way, is there a reason why this design has never been utilised to fire the likes of 9mm CF cartridges etc?

Ectually, Mr Pond, old chap, "this design" HAS been utilised to fire the likes of 9mm CF cartridges, even if you discount the possibility of procuring an actual Luger to get the Luger grip angle. True, other guns with steeply slanted butts are not very common but they do exist. You could search for a Benelli B76 on the secondary market, or pay the price for a Pardini PD. Never mind antiques like Schwartzlose, Steyr, and Brixia.

The Nambu series of pistols are not blowback, they have a separate prop-up locking block distantly related to the broomhandle Mauser and Italian Glisenti.

I agree, the main reason for the slanted grip of many .22s is to get a good feed angle for rimmed cartridges. Look at even a High Standard Military. Although the grip shape is similar to a 1911, the magazine well is at the same angle as their "slant grip" models. On the other hand, S&W, Walther, and Beretta manage to get straighter magazines to work.

[Southern Rebel]

It's my understanding that Ruger based the Mk series loosely on the Japanese Nambu.

Nah, they started with a clean sheet of paper - Ruger is kinda magical that way. :rolleyes:

(Nevertheless, I own three of trheir guns and will own more - if they don't run out of magical paper. :D

[Walt Sherrill]

Re: clean sheet of paper...

According to Wikipedia, which cites the book, Wilson, R. L. "Ruger & His Guns; A History Of The Man, The Company And Their Firearms." 1996. ISBN 07-8582-1031:

The original Ruger pistol, now called the Standard, had no model number, as it was the first, and for a time, only gun made by Sturm, Ruger. Prior to Bill Ruger's partnership with Sturm, he had successfully duplicated two Baby Nambu pistols[1] while working in his garage, from a U.S. Marine's captured Nambu, shortly after World War II. Although deciding against marketing the Baby Nambu Pistols, Ruger did incorporate the Nambu style rear cocking device and modified the Nambu's silhouette, plus he added a 4.75 in (12.1 cm) lightweight barrel with fixed sights.

Not a Nambu copy and not a clean sheet of paper, either.

Ruger apparently used some concepts learned from working on the Nambu in his design, but added things that were uniquely Ruger.

[varoadking]

I own three of trheir guns and will own more

Ya made me look...

An even dozen...7 Mark II's, 3 10/22's, a .44 carbine and a .308 Hawkeye.

Though to be fair...5 of the Mark II's sport Pac-Lite uppers...