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Fleabag
November 4, 2011, 09:25 AM
I am considering the purshase of a new CC handgun in the 1911 platform, preferably in .45 acp but friends expiriences and horror stories have forced me to look at different calibers like the SA EMP IN 9mm and 40 which have proven to be quite reliable. My question is, how come these guns are so reliable and producing a 3" 1911 gun in .45 acp has been such a headache. What are the variables at work that make a 9mm or 40 reliable in a EMP but not a .45 in an Officers size frame?

Stressfire
November 4, 2011, 09:35 AM
how come these guns are so reliable and producing a 3" 1911 gun in .45 acp has been such a headache.

Maybe mine is an exception, but what are some of the problems you refer to?

Fleabag
November 4, 2011, 09:58 AM
FTF, FTE in the case of a friends Kimber. The gun was serviced several times by the manufacturer. There was also a bunch of magazine shuffles and spring changes. After much hasstle, the gun runs fine for about 500 rounds when the spring is changed, otherwise the failire begin again. There are several gun stores that do not have in display these guns due to repeated problems.

From what I've read, officers size 1911 are temperamental in nature. The limited expirience I've been exposed to certainly comfirm this. I'm pretty shure there are plenty reliable 3" 1911 out there but there are many instances of problematic examples, specialy when compared to SA EMPs in 9mm and 40 calibers.

scottl
November 4, 2011, 10:01 AM
My question is, how come these guns are so reliable and producing a 3" 1911 gun in .45 acp has been such a headache. What are the variables at work that make a 9mm or 40 reliable in a EMP but not a .45 in an Officers size frame?
Simple timing and the EMP was designed around the .45 GAP which is shorter than ACP round.The gun has more time to cycle the shorter rounds.

ripnbst
November 4, 2011, 10:30 AM
Check out Para Ordnance's CCO 1911's. I've got one and with the exception of one issue that was non size related it has been awesome. Even the problem I had I called, told them what broke, no questions asked they sent a replacement and I had it in 3 days.

I would buy Para again.

Stressfire
November 4, 2011, 10:49 AM
From what I've read, officers size 1911 are temperamental in nature. The limited experience I've been exposed to certainly confirm this.

Heard that as well, but figured I'd take a shot. Have yet to have an issue with my RIA Officer's, but am only about 200 rounds in. Had some failures to return fully to battery in the first 50 rounds, but has run like a top since - +p ammo helps too but I don't use it often. Eats everything I feed it - ball, jhp, nylon tipped, etc

Owners manual recommends a 500 round break in for some reason, then again Owners manual also gives take-down instructions for the full size GI - first time I ever took it apart, I spent a very long time trying to push on the guide rod before I realized that the CS Model didn't have a bushing:confused:

My first 1911, gimme a break:rolleyes:

BigJimP
November 4, 2011, 11:35 AM
Reliability is a big issue - on a lot of 1911's under 4" ..based on what I see and hear at my local range....

....and as I understand it, its why companies like Wilson Combat don't make a gun under 4" because they have not been able to make it run 100%.

RickB
November 4, 2011, 12:33 PM
Neither of the EMPs I've seen on the range were very reliable. Granted, I saw fewer than 100 rounds fired through each gun, but 3-5 malfs in 100 rounds isn't very good! The 1911 platform does not run better with shorter rounds (.40, 9mm) than it does with the longer rounds for which it's chambered (.38 Super, 10mm, .45). Theoretically, the EMP should be better-suited to the shorter cartridges, but is it?

scottl
November 4, 2011, 12:46 PM
I had a 9mm EMP.I bought it used after guy traded back in since it wouldn't run.Extractor had to be pried out of the tunnel.It had so much tension that the hook caught the breech face.After fixing that issue it ran 100% with ball and Remington HP's.

Aguila Blanca
November 4, 2011, 01:18 PM
I am considering the purshase of a new CC handgun in the 1911 platform, preferably in .45 acp but friends expiriences and horror stories have forced me to look at different calibers like the SA EMP IN 9mm and 40 which have proven to be quite reliable. My question is, how come these guns are so reliable and producing a 3" 1911 gun in .45 acp has been such a headache. What are the variables at work that make a 9mm or 40 reliable in a EMP but not a .45 in an Officers size frame?
There's no mystery about making a 3" 1911 work with .45 Auto ammunition. The Colt Defender has been around for years and is considered one of the most reliable self-defense pistols available by 1911 cognoscenti. The Para Slin Hawg is also a 3" 1911 in .45 Auto, and mine has been 100 percent reliable from the first shot.

The Springfield EMP is a special case -- the frame is shorter than a standard 1911, and cannot accept a .45 Auto round. In fact, Springfield developed the EMP around the shorter .45 GAP cartridge, then never brought it to market in that chambering. But it was a natural for the 9mm and .40 S&W rounds, so they sell it for those calibers.

You can't compare the EMP to any other 1911 because there isn't any other brand that uses a similarly shortened grip frame.

KyJim
November 4, 2011, 02:20 PM
Short barreled 1911s require more precise timing which means less room for error, both mechanical and human. You see the human error when someone is recoil sensitive or "limp wrists" the gun, especially in alloy framed pistols. That effects the timing of the slide which can cause problems. Colt defenders do have a good reputation but they are still more sensitive than full size Govt. models.

I don't currently carry any 1911 with a barrel shorter than 4.25" (okay maybe an Officer's Model very rarely) because the extra length isn't any harder to hide. If I need something smaller to conceal, I need something with a shorter grip frame. Currently, that's a Kahr CM9, Sig P238 or sometimes a SW J-frame.

shanzlik
November 4, 2011, 02:33 PM
The shorter 1911s do require more frequent spring changes. A smaller spring is being asked to do about the same work as the longer GI springs so it won't last as long. 500 rounds is about the max they should go. Some will say 300. It's part of routine maintenace for short 1911s. It's only a reliability issue if you don't change them when you should. FYI - even a government model should be changed after 3,000 rounds. Possibly less if you shoot a lot of +P ammo.

If you want to go longer, consider an STI. Their RecoilMaster will go significantly longer due to a different design. My Shadow has 3,000 rounds on the original recoil assembly without problems. My Escort has over 1,000.

The Defender is also typically reliable. Mine has zero failures in well over 1,000 rounds, but I do keep up with spring changes.

The shorter 1911s do allow less margin for error on the part of the manufacturer and on the part of the user. I personally don't think Wilson et al don't make them because they are impossible to make reliable, I think they are happy with their market share and don't want the hassle of making one work and then dealing with customers who may not keep up with the additional maintenance requirements (either through ignorance or neglect).

Kimber has some issues these days aside from common 3" issues. They often have improper extractor tension (too little), out of spec feed ramps (too shallow top to bottom), and tight chambers (which are good for accuracy but make it more difficult to chamber a wide variety of ammunition). Their slide stop lobes are sometimes too big which allows them to contact the next round in the mag, which in turn causes false lock backs.

9x19
November 4, 2011, 04:26 PM
My Colt Defender in 9mm has been excellent, no failures to feed or fire.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/pb9x19/1911s/CDefenderrw.jpg

I had an EMP for a time but just didn't really like the smaller grip. It also ran just fine.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/pb9x19/1911s/SAEMP9ss.jpg

David the Gnome
November 4, 2011, 05:06 PM
I've had two 3" Paras and one Rock Island Armory and I've never had a failure from any of them. I've put a lot of rounds downrange through my Para LDA Companion and it's never even given the hint of a problem. I run Chip McCormick mags in all of my compacts so that may have something to do with it but it doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

HKFan9
November 4, 2011, 05:28 PM
All the 3'' 1911's I have fired were fine, a few of my co-workers and friends carry them. I don't like the way they feel in my hands however.

I have been caryring a SA Lightweight Champion Operator that I am very pleased with. 4'' bull barrel, light weight government size frame. It isn't are more difficult to hide vs. a 3''.

My only gripe is my short fingers, the my operator has a long trigger... I am ordering a short trigger for it when I get around to it.

MagnumWill
November 4, 2011, 08:59 PM
500 rounds is about the max they should go. Some will say 300.

:confused::confused: you're joking, right? I want to see the text that states this.

I've put 300 rounds in my 3" New Agent to break the damn thing in, I'm not about to run out and buy recoil springs as frequently as I buy ammo. My .45 has so far had 100% reliability after the first box to break it in. If anything, the "friend's .45" that has had horror stories is probably due to it being a Kimber as opposed to being in .45.

I'll buy a recoil spring as soon as the slide stops moving fast enough to amputate fingers when you hit the slide stop, which I'm sure is 2,000 rounds out. Maybe it's just IMO, but Colt wouldn't be selling compact 1911's if that was such a pertinent issue. Go buy an officer's frame Colt in .45 and don't look back.

shanzlik
November 4, 2011, 09:20 PM
Can they work longer than 500 rounds, sure, but unless it's just a range toy you want to replace them before the gun starts having problems cycling. Preventive maintenance, not reactive maintenance, leads to much higher levels of reliability.

I'm not downing 3" 1911s at all, I own and carry them, they just require different maintenance intervals for top reliability.

ET.
November 4, 2011, 09:36 PM
If there is a gun out there that requires it's springs to be replaced every 300 to 500 rounds then I want no part of that gun. It's preposterous to have to change out springs that often to make a gun run. My wife & I just bought new 1911s a week ago. She has 350 rounds through hers already & I have 450 rounds through mine. They have only been cleaned twice. There is no way in haites that I'd be changing out springs already. It's been a lousy week. If one parctices the way they should then they would need to buy recoil springs by the case. Better yet, sell the gold you've been hoarding & buy stock in Wolf Spring Company.

shanzlik
November 4, 2011, 09:54 PM
If you burn through 500 rounds all the time, that's a lot more money than the cost of a spring. Why wouldn't you want to replace inexpensive parts in exchange for greater reliability and less wear on your pistol?

Again, I am speaking of the 3" 1911s here, not Government models. I can't find the link I was looking for, but Hilton Yam is one well respected smith, competitor, instructor, and duty user of the 1911 who says 500 rounds for the compact, particularly if you're looking for top reliability and using the gun for duty or personal defense.

Here is what Wolff has to say about compact pistols and spring changes (it's not unique to the 1911, most any small pistol will need more frequent changes and the manuals often specifiy it)...

Wolff springs are made with the highest grade materials and workmanship. Most Wolff [recoil] springs will remain stable for many thousands of rounds. Some recoil springs in compact pistols, especially where dual springs are used or are replaced by a single spring may require changing after 500 - 1500 rounds. Springs that become rusty, bent or otherwise damaged should always be replaced. Again, changes you observe in your firearm's performance are the best indicators that a change is needed.

http://www.gunsprings.com/faq

And I will add again, if you need reliability don't wait for a problem before you change the spring. It's false economy at best.

AZAK
November 5, 2011, 03:08 AM
you're joking, right? I want to see the text that states this.

Read the "Detailed Description":
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Full-Length-Guide-Rod-Officers/productinfo/25CO/

federali
November 5, 2011, 06:27 AM
Heavier bullets need more time and barrel length to accelerate than lighter ones. As many have mentioned, Short barreled .45s are so difficult to tune for reliability that I'm not sure I'd want to bet my life on one.

The following website shows that velocity loss, going from a 5" to a 3" barrel in .45 ACP results in a velocity loss of up to 150 FPS. depending on the load. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

Does anyone know what effect this velocity loss will have on bullet performance? Does it transform the popular self-defence rounds into ball ammo?

Mrgunsngear
November 5, 2011, 06:54 AM
My Kimber Ultra Carry II was a nightmare until I did a lot of smithing to it. For 500 rounds I couldn't get through a magazine and Kimber's customer service response was "try another 200 rounds through it, it may not be broken in" ***???? So, you're telling my the break in is 700 rounds? Absurd. I swapped out a bunch of parts, did some polishing, changed mags, and now it runs pretty well but for the money they charge that's absurd. I'd go with springfield or RIA (depending on budget) for a 3'' 1911 next time.

MagnumWill
November 5, 2011, 12:41 PM
Of course a major company that produces springs for a premium is going to tell you to change it every time you drop the hammer on your gun- it's like Ford saying to ensure the utmost performance of your vehicle, change the oil and brake pads every 100 miles. I fully understand the virtues of preventative maintenance, I just feel everyone's perception of it is different. I feel my Colt will gave no spring-related issues out to 1,000 rounds, at least. I also understand the situation of "repair-worn" mechanisms, so sometimes less is more.

AZAK
November 5, 2011, 01:17 PM
Of course a major company that produces springs for a premium is going to tell you to change it every time you drop the hammer on your gun- it's like Ford saying to ensure the utmost performance of your vehicle, change the oil and brake pads every 100 miles.

I would hardly call $6.95 for a Wilson Combat spring a "premium". 300 rounds of factory.45 auto will run you approx. $100 - 120. So keeping a short barreled 1911 running reliably (which is on topic for this thread - 3" 1911s) is aided by spending around 5-7% additional considering your ammo budget.

You can dislike the recommendations, by different 1911 sources, call it highway robbery by spring companies; however, it does aid in keeping a short barreled 1911 running reliably.

Remember, if you want to play (with a pistol that has been modified from its original parameters - pushing the envelope as it were) you pay (5-7% for springs in relation to the ammo cost.) Or you can run it till it stops working... now how much does that cost?

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Benjamin Franklin

Fleabag
November 5, 2011, 01:35 PM
What is so different about a SA EMP that make them not so temperamental and more reliable? Shorter ammo but the frame is also shorter. What gives?

AZAK
November 5, 2011, 01:38 PM
And if that much $ is just too much, how about $9 per year:
http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=4

IMSI makes a flat wire spring with a full one year warranty which even covers "wear".

This is the spring that I run in my Officer's which has run 100% from day one; granted it was "worked on" by a reputable smith straight from the "NIB" and does get regular cleaning, lube, and spring changes, but 100% is 100%.

Aguila Blanca
November 5, 2011, 01:42 PM
The 300 to 500 round change interval for short (3-1/2" or 3") 1911s is for conventional recoil springs. Almost every maker today uses a version of the Seecamp-designed "encapsulated" dual spring assembly, which has a longer change interval. Even those, however, need to be replaced more frequently than the long single spring in a Government model.

shanzlik
November 5, 2011, 02:30 PM
MagnumWill - so you're predictably dismissing the spring manufacturer's advice, as well as Wilson Combat, who sells springs for the short 1911s, but what about the smith I mentioned, who doesn't sell springs or short 1911s and has no dog in the fight so to speak?

I've also seen the recommendation for changing at sub-1,000 round intervals in at least a couple 3" 1911 manuals, I just have no online reference to them.

Also, you'll need to field strip to clean by 500 rounds at the latest, so how will changing the spring during a field strip cause additional wear or a "repair worn mechanism?"

Not sure why you seem to be getting bent out of shape, you did ask for additional information.

As far as conventional vs modified spring assemblies and different life cycles someone else mentioned, I did point that out earlier when I mentioned STI.

shanzlik
November 5, 2011, 02:47 PM
Just FYI for those who have a Seecamp, so they aren't potentially confused, the Seecamp manual recommends 300 round intervals. Rohrbaugh recommends only 200 rounds before change. That futher reinforces the point that smaller pistols need more frequent changes than larger pistols, in general.

Dual spring assemblies may last longer in the 1911, like the RecoilMaster I mentioned earlier, which I think was Aguila's point.

Shadi Khalil
November 5, 2011, 04:19 PM
My 3 inch 1911 (Kimber) experience was terrible. If I had to have another, I would go with the Colt Defender. That's the only one I've heard more good than bad about.

MagnumWill
November 5, 2011, 07:45 PM
We can analyze this as much as we want, the fact of the matter is short-barreled .45s would not be popular if the spring issue was as pertinent as everyone makes it. In my opinion, 300-500 rounds is too soon for a recoil spring change. Everyone's guns and shooting habits are different, and treat them as how they see fit. I'm not going to neglect my Colt as your ad-hominae is making it seem, but I'm not going to discredit its reputation for reliability.

icedog88
November 6, 2011, 08:13 AM
So the industry that wants to make more money off of people is recommending that we change these springs after 6 boxes of ammo? Hmmmmmm....:rolleyes:. Hope my GF doesn't hear about this. No telling how she might use this against me!:D

KyJim
November 6, 2011, 12:10 PM
Does anyone know what effect this velocity loss will have on bullet performance? Does it transform the popular self-defence rounds into ball ammo? That is a problem for short barreled 1911s. When I very occasionally carry my Colt Officer, it is with FMJ.

Some shooters like to use 185 gr. +P ammo but Speer has gone a different route. Speer makes a 230 gr. Gold Dot for short barreled pistols which seems to have pretty decent penetration and expansion. If I understand it correctly, the heavier bullet is slower initially which allows more time for the powder to burn. This results in higher velocity by the time the bullet exits the barrel. It sounds counter-intuitive but works. They also do this in their .38 special loads with 125 gr. +P bullets in their normal loads but 135 grain bullets in their short barrel loads.

9x19
November 6, 2011, 02:41 PM
"That is a problem for short barreled 1911s..."

... and short barreled Glocks... and short barreled Kahrs... and short barreled XDs... and etc. :D