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View Full Version : 44 Bulldog gun... OK... not 44 Bull Dog cartridge... what the heck caliber ???


Magnum Wheel Man
October 17, 2011, 06:26 AM
you've seen my other thread no doubt...

I reciently bought what looks like an unfired American Bulldog revolver... the cylinder pin was stuck, & we finally got it out, but that's where the questions begin...

the cylinder is stepped, so it's not for a heal seated bullet like the 44 Bull Dog, ( I have an original 44 Bull Dog cartridge ) the cylinder throats & barrel slug .430", & the step in the cylinder is much longer than the Bull Dog cartridge... infact, about .010" shorter than the 44 Russian cartridge

any thoughts as to what caliber this might have been ???

the barrel cylinder gap is quite large, so unless I have my guy remove the barrel & mill the end enough to screw it in one more thread rotation, & correct the barrel cylinder gap, I'll just be shooting round balls... the head space is fine for using shortened 44 special cases... I'm going to have my buddy make me a custom expander die & a custom seater die for the cartridge, but will be building a case around the measurements of the chambers... the cartridge will be much longer than the original Bull Dog cartridge

Magnum Wheel Man
October 17, 2011, 10:52 AM
maybe this is a later gun, & they were going to make a Bull Dog without the heal seated bullet ???

the closest cartridge my buddy could find in his reference materials is the 10.4mm Montegrin #4, but the bullet diameter would have been like .425"... clearly smaller than the bore

RJay
October 17, 2011, 04:27 PM
I thought the American Bull dog was an Iver Johnson in 38RF? My error, 32,38 and 44 centerfire.

Magnum Wheel Man
October 17, 2011, 05:34 PM
OK... fair enough... this one was next above the other thread for 1/2 of the day... the other thread had been at the top of the page for a week or so...I guess I expected a couple responses earlier...

heres a link... ( 3 topics below right now )

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464793

I have no idea what you're talking about and it's not like you're famous or something.

sheesh... tough croud:o

Magnum Wheel Man
October 18, 2011, 05:37 AM
Thanks OKIE... at least someone knows who I am...:)

Scorch
October 18, 2011, 11:11 AM
44 S&W American?

And don't you fret none, MWM. You's famous t'us.

Magnum Wheel Man
October 18, 2011, 12:14 PM
well... without checking the serial number... ( BTW... the gun is unfired ) I'm going to assume ... er maybe, that it's a later gun, & that they chambered it for an experimental 44 Bull Dog without the heal seated bullet, & they just never made a cartridge to fit the gun...

so I'm going to call it a "44 extra special" since the special is a shorter version of a longer cartridge ( or at least thats how it ended up )

we did run the barrel in one more turn, which gives me a .005" barrel cylinder gap, instead of a .033" gap as found... so I'll be loading my shortened 44 special cases with 160 grain cast lead bullets... velocities will still have to be tame, as it's definately a soft steel era gun...

I got a great deal on this gun in the 1st place, then to find it unfired, & in an easy to load unique chambering +++

thought I better attach a pic...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74159&d=1317248575

Magnum Wheel Man
October 18, 2011, 04:09 PM
I don't think it's 44 S&W American... the numbers don't match

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74722&stc=1&d=1318972084

my cylinder throats & bore slug .430"

also my buddy has several different 44 Bulldog cartridges, & only about 1/2 of them will go into the gun, so my chambers are tighter, & there may have been quite a varriance in the specs of the 44 Bulldog

darkgael
October 19, 2011, 05:04 AM
MWM: Which cartridges fit?

Pete

gyvel
October 19, 2011, 09:31 AM
Long shot, but: .44 Webley?

32 Magnum
October 19, 2011, 10:51 AM
I'm with Gyvel. That's an Iver Johnson and it was chambered for the .44 Webley cartridge - just like the H&R American Double Action extra large frame revolver. According to the late Bill Goforth's Iver Johnson research the IJ AMERICAN BULLDOG could handle either the .44 Webley or the .44 (American) Bulldog.

Magnum Wheel Man
October 19, 2011, 02:45 PM
Webley bullet at .444 ( acording to WIKI ) would not go through ( safely ) my .430" chamber throats, or my .430" barrel

my gun smith buddy slugged both a cylinder throat & the barrel... the barrel might actually even measure .429 at the tightest point...

I'd find it hard to believe they used .430" cylinder chamber throats & barrel on a heal seated bullet... they'd have to get squeezed down alot

here's another pic, with a mocked up cartridge ( bullet is actually the round ball that was slugged through the chamber throat, then inserted into one of the shortened 44 Special cases... it should be seated a few .001's" if loaded )

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74744&stc=1&d=1319054380

darkgael
October 19, 2011, 03:23 PM
The .44 American used a heeled bullet of .440" diameter according to Ken Howell in his "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges".
The .44 Webley, also known as the .442 Webley or the .442 RIC or the .442 Revolver, used a bullet of .446" diameter, according to Howell, though I have seen references to diameters as small as .436".

Donnelly in his "Manual Of Cartridge Conversions" has the .44 American bullet at .434" and the head diameter as .440" - as it used a heeled bullet and a straight walled case, the bullet should be .440".
Donnelly has the .44 Webley bullet at .436" dia. and the .44 Bulldog (which has the same rim - .503"- and head - .455" - diameter as the slightly longer Webley) at .440". The only substantial difference otherwise is case length - .69" for the Webley, .57" for the Bulldog.
Cartridge data from William C. Dowell's "The Webley Story" refers to a .442 diameter for the first model British Bulldog (.450 for later models).

So...if the barrel slugs at .430" (is that land or groove diameter?) then you are closest to the Webley (maybe). What does the cylinder measure at it breech end? The difference between head diameters of the .44 American and the two Webleys is significant.
The .44 Evans Short (.419"), the .44 Henry (.423"), the .44 Russian, all have bullets smaller than .430. The Russian at .429" is the closest match.
Pete

Magnum Wheel Man
October 19, 2011, 03:55 PM
the Russian cartridges are about .010" longer than my chambers, but otherwise seem like they should have fit better than the Webleys or the 44 Bulldogs

... & BTW... the rifling is quite shallow, even though we are sure the gun at least appears unfired... & it has a very slow twist rate ( slower than typical .429" barrels )

Opinated
October 19, 2011, 06:06 PM
Perhaps foolish question on my part. Did you examine the firing pin position and shape to determine if it is rimfire or center fire?

Magnum Wheel Man
October 19, 2011, 06:10 PM
not a foolish question... but it is a centerfire

Winchester_73
October 19, 2011, 11:53 PM
bit of a long shot here, but could it be 44 magnum?

darkgael
October 20, 2011, 04:33 AM
MWM: the rifling is quite shallow,
What is groove diameter? How many lands and grooves are there?
Pete

Magnum Wheel Man
October 20, 2011, 06:13 AM
Winchester... not magnum... chambers are about .010" shorter than 44 special...

Dark... I had the barrel slug & gun here at work yesterday... today it's at home... I'm leaving for vacation in a day or so, so I won't have time to do anything with this until I get back

Winchester_73
October 20, 2011, 10:39 AM
Winchester... not magnum... chambers are about .010" shorter than 44 special...

I was obviously kidding lol!

Its a cool gun even if you never find the caliber.

Since these guns were made for carry, with pretty weak cals for the most part IE 32 rimfire, etc, do you find that you enjoy shooting say a 6 in K frame 38 special more or do like the whole experience of shooting these old smaller pistols? Just wondering. Its hard to build skill with such little guns, and I like the thrill of like a 357 magnum or even a 38. I always wondered this MWM, so I figured I'd ask you. I have a lot of vintage revolvers too but shooting them just doesn't seem interesting to me compared to say a P38 or anything else.

Magnum Wheel Man
October 20, 2011, 12:27 PM
my revolvers range from 454 Casull Alaskan, 357 Maximum Dan Wesson... on down to my NAA Mini in 22 lr, & a H&R solid frame in 22 short, with lots of inbetween...

the big bores & the Magnums are definately fun to shoot... but I also find I enjoy shooting the small frame 32 S&W's... enough so, that I have almost 1000 cases for the 32 S&W... I find that Mrs. Magnum like shooting these lower power, lower noise guns, more than the magnums, so if I'm looking for her to join me on the range... we're shooting the antiques...

I try to find time for some long range revolver work... using like my custom fast twist 8 shot 22 Hornet revolver, or my S&W 610 now chambered in 10 mm magnum...

right now, the revolvers I'm shooting most, are my Montados in 45 Colt, as I've been using them in CAS, which I've been trying to shoot every other week

so... I can't really answer which I enjoy more... I guess I enjoy them all :D

Winchester_73
October 20, 2011, 12:54 PM
so... I can't really answer which I enjoy more... I guess I enjoy them all

I do too. I guess I collect more than I shoot nowadays, but with a good laptop, gunbroker, gunsamerica, and numerous classifieds, a C&R license and a little money, it ends up being easier than taking the time to shoot sadly. I don't have the opportunity to shoot at my house due to it being residential.

I do enjoy your threads because often its a gun I don't know much about and its usually a special situation IE the gunsmithing and altering of calibers. Its not like everyone does that stuff, so I find it all interesting. I love when my older guns are original but thats at the sacrifice of not being able to shoot them. Keep on keeping on MWM.

Webleymkv
October 21, 2011, 04:54 PM
While it may be a long shot, the dimensions you describe almost match that of 11x17.8R which was the chambering of the French Chamelot-Delvigne revolver. As far as I can tell, this cartridge had a bullet diameter of .425" and a case length of .71".

Asgardnz
November 6, 2011, 11:52 PM
I own quite a few British, Belgian and U.S. bulldog pistols in .44 calibre and I think it is most likely to be the .442 Webley round. Old catalogues suggest this.

Magnum Wheel Man
November 9, 2011, 06:59 AM
well here are a few more pics, with my 1st handloads

handloads consist of shortened 44 special cases, decapped with my 44 special dies ( head stamps have been knurled out ) BTW, the rims did not need to be thinned to go round in the gun... did up 2 test loads using both 2 & 3 grains of Trailboss case mouths belled with a custom die made by my buddy, Hunters Supply 160 grain FP's measuring .430, seated with my 44 special die, & then taper crimped with another custom die made by my buddy...

I'll be trying them out this weekend, but the bullet is sized correctly for the bore, so I expect at least belly gun accuracy

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75301&stc=1&d=1320839796

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75302&stc=1&d=1320839871

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75303&stc=1&d=1320839931

darkgael
November 10, 2011, 07:49 AM
MWM: I am really interested in how your test goes. For my own loads - .44 Webley/.44 Bulldog. I used FFFg Goex as opposed to a smokeless load.
I have a box of the cartridges loaded with smokeless and the heeled bullet - made up for me by GAD Custom Cartridges. I found that my own BP loads using a .440 LRB worked better.
Pic: http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/44BulldogsJPG.jpg

These are lighter bullets than you have loaded and a larger diameter. The two on the right are mine, made from .44 Spl. cases. The far right is the "Bulldog" sized round; less powder, less recoil. The heeled bullet is shown and the full length Webley round from GAD.
The gun is a Belgian copy of the Webley British Bulldog. I believe that you have seen this pic before but...
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/45BritishBulldog-1.jpg


Pete

Magnum Wheel Man
November 10, 2011, 08:09 AM
I "should" repair my Chrony ( last time I had it out... about a year ago I was shooting my 38 S&W snubbie... before I adjusted the front sight height... & shot the Chrony, cutting the wire in 1/2 )

I'd be currious what kind of velocities I'll get with the Bulldog...

my pressures should be plenty low, my cowboy loads for my 45 Colt use 5 grains of Trailboss with a 250 grain bullet, so even the 3 grain loads with a 160 grain bullet should be quite light... of course I'll start with the 5 - 2 grain loads 1st, before trying the 5-3 grain loads

darkgael
November 10, 2011, 07:16 PM
MWM: Trail Boss is a good choice. Why not BP?

James K
November 10, 2011, 10:31 PM
There were actually three different .44 cartridges used in (and made for) those .44 Bulldog revolvers. The shortest, called the .44 Bulldog, was equivalent to the British .442. The next was called .44 Webley; like the .44 Bulldog, it used a heel type bullet. The longest case length was the .44 Webley Inside Lubricated. All those used the same base and rim diameter, differing only in case length, and all can be made from .44 Special/.44 Magnum cases, but the rim might have to be thinned from the front for proper operation in some Bulldog revolvers.

Jim

Magnum Wheel Man
November 11, 2011, 09:21 AM
DARK... I have black powder... just haven't been able to force myself to start loading for it yet...

on stuff like my CAS guns, sometimes ( I'm an extremely busy guy ) I might not get time to clean my guns for maybe a 1/2 week after I shoot them...

for guns like this Bulldog, I can better control when I shoot, & thus clean... but just haven't ever tried loading cartridges with black powder ... yet

Asgardnz
November 11, 2011, 07:07 PM
I have seen a couple of revolvers with blown cylinders from loading cartridges with light loads of unique. One was a black powder Mk2(or 1, I can't remember) Webley and the other a large black powder bulldog marked Westley Richards( a well known maker of shotguns) in .450 calibre.
I think I still have the remains of the Webley, if I have, I'll post a picture. These pistols blew apart. The bulldog blew the cylinder and split the topstrap. The Webley bulged the top strap, blew off the catch for the action and spectacularly blew out a chamber
I am no expert on reloading, but after talking to the person who blew up the Webley, I suspect his light load of Unique may have detonated instead of burning, possibly because he did not use a fiiler to keep the powder up against the primer hole. I would stick to black powder only.

Magnum Wheel Man
November 14, 2011, 12:11 PM
Trailboss is made to load in cartridges like this, & I've had really good luck with my 32 S&W's & my 38 S&W's with light loads of Trailboss

BTW... I did fire the gun this weekend, but ran into troubles with the thickness of the rims, actually more with the primers when shooting the gun... so I'll take it back to "my guy" & see if we need to thin those rims some, or if it would be easier / better in the long run, to do something like recess the chambers some, to use a standard thickness 44 special case shortened, for future use ???

I talked to my machinist buddy / loading mentor... he feels my loads were too mild, & the primer dents were bulging out around the dent ( not enough pressure to set back the case & flatten them back, as would happen with a normal cartridge pressure ) I'll try the 3 grain loads & see if theres an improvement... 1st

otherwise he suggested trying to drill out the flash hole one drill bit size to see if I can reduce the primer pocket pressure ( if the cartridges won't set back enough with my light loads ) before we looked at thinning the rims, or partially recessing the chambers

darkgael
November 15, 2011, 09:48 PM
Note: as far as I know there are only two cartridges in the Webley/Bulldog family. The .44 Webley/.442 Webley/.442 RIC/ 10.5X17R/.442 Revolver are all the same cartridge. The .44 Bulldog is a shorter version manufactured in the USA by Winchester and Peters.
Pete

Magnum Wheel Man
November 21, 2011, 08:30 AM
shot the next cylinder full with 3 grains of Trailboss this weekend... suprisingly the gun shot closer to point of aim, & ran all 5 cartridges... started getting a little tight by the 5th, still the primers, but much better than the 2 grain loads... will try bumping up the charge by 1/4 grain or so at a time, & see if I can get it to run smoother with a bit more powder... ( 3 grains worked much better than 2 grains )... if a 1/4 grain doesn't get me smooth operation, I'll probably try the bigger primer hole next... but this last set was quite promising

Lee McNelly
November 21, 2011, 08:57 AM
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/10/03/what-was-custers-last-gun/

Cartophilis
November 23, 2011, 02:47 PM
I have one of these that looks unfired.............all i know it thats is a 44 something..........

Id love to shoot it but i dont reload. I always hoped to find the right ammo......

So far, 8 years and no luck...