Anyone else concerned about this?

[American Eagle]

In the past few days I have been doing a lot of google searches on black powder firearms since I've become interested in the hobby. Although there is a lot of good information online, I kept coming across tons of threads asking if a felon can own a black powder firearm. It's troubling to see felons trying to find a loophole with black powder firearms to get their hands on a weapon. The last thing we need is for some crazy to ruin the hobby for us by bringing the wrath of the Federal government down on black powder firearms.:(

[Don H]

If "felony creep" wasn't ocurring at such a rapid pace, I'd be concerned about felons and black powder firearms. I have a hard time labeling Martha Stewart as a "crazy", though. I read some time ago that an average citizen technically commits a felony every week. Perhaps we need to redefine what a felony is so that it really has some meaning. I think Ayn Rand had a pertinent comment about the situation.

[noelf2]

I'm not so concerned about someone with a prior felony conviction who is considering legal acquisition of a black powder gun. I'm more concerned about someone with a prior felony conviction who wants to illegally acquire a gun. Not all people with prior felony convictions are bad people who want to do harm.

[Hawg]

Anyone else concerned about this?

No.

[bedbugbilly]

Let's face it folks . . . if a "felon" wants to get a gun to use for bad purposes, it's easy enough to get a modern cartridge gun for his purposes right off the street or to steal one. I doubt highly if there is going to be a big problem with felons doing hold ups with a black powder handgun. But . . . you never know . . . Martha Stewart may decide to start "carrying" in the kitchen . . . :D

[American Eagle]

Good point.

[NWPilgrim]

If someone committed a violent crime and cannot be trusted to act as a citizen in society then the problem is why are they out. If they are out then they should have their rights, including the right to bear arms.

And as already mentioned, if a felon plans to BREAK THE LAW AND ROB SOMEONE, then I doubt they are going to try to stay legal with a blackpowder arm, they will likely acquire modern firearm(s) ILLEGALLY.

I suspect a felon seeking to legally own a BP arm is someone trying to stay straight and still be able to defend himself and/or enjoy the shooting sports. Not someone looking to mug you.

[robhof]

Heck the felons can pretend that they're illegals and buy their guns from the ATF directly or whoever sent thousands across the border to prove that illegal guns were coming from the USA.....:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::cool:

[bedbugbilly]

robhof - chuckle, chuckle . . . :D I'm in AZ in the winter and you have to realize that those guns were actually going through a dealer with the feds sanctioning it so they could follow the weapons path . . . sad thing is that nobody really wanted to fess up for being responsible for that fiasco.

Now get this . . . the BP officer that was killed down there last winter was shot with automatic weapons . . . while they (BP) first responded back with "bean bag guns" . . . huh? What's wrong with this picture? This happened not too far away from where we are. These BP officers were part of a special team that go out looking for bandits that make a practice of ripping off and robbing the drug trafficers corssing the border . . . the desert is a very big place. I really think they need to just form a perimeter and let the bandits, druggies and coyotes just shoot it out until they are all gone. Unless you're down there . . . you don't know a lot of what is really going on . . . it's about time the government got a backbone and truly enforced the immigration policy.

Don't even get me started on the "illegals" . . . . suffice to say, I don't "carry" a BP down there . . . . that's why they made .380s and 9mms. I'm 45 mi. north of the border and frankly, we feel very safe . . . but . . . you still need to be aware of your surroundings and what is going on like you should be anywhere . . . .

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, I think American Eagle is on to something...There IS some kind of connection with black powder guns and felons...John Wesley Hardin, Belle Starr, Butch Cassidy and Sundance, Billy The Kid, Jesse and Frank James, Quantril, Bloody Bill Anderson, The youngers..you see what I mean..a regular conspiracy!!

[zombieslayer]

At least the felons looking for info want to stay legal. Imagine all the felons who dont care about legality...

[62coltnavy]

That really is the point of all those posts--these felons want to know if they can legally possess a black powder firearm, because they know that they are prohibited from possessing "regular" firearms. And there are some funky statutes that cloud the issue. But be assured that as far as I know, a black powder firearm is still a firearm, and felons cannot possess them lawfully.

[Model-P]

Shouldn't concern me at all....if laws were just and punishments fit the crimes......

1) A "felon" should be incarcerated.

2) A prior-felon who has done his time, paid the price, and is free should have his rights restored like any other free man.

3) A felon should not be freed until he has been punished sufficiently to reconsider his actions, past and future. I'm all for heavy labor.

And, really, doesn't concern me anyway because.....

3) Gun control never works. Laws only effectively control those who are law-abiding. A gun control law will have no effect on one who has criminal intent, and it doesn't matter if that person has no prior record, or is a prior-felon. To say that laws prohibiting possessing of firearms are effective at preventing crime is to say that criminals obey laws and gun control works.

You do understand how easy it is to be charged with a felony nowadays, don't you? I'd bet I could walk through your house and find at least one felony conviction waiting to happen. Most "law-abiding" citizens don't know the law enough to be able to abide by it 100%. Even police officers often have real problems knowing the law.

(No, I'm not a prior-felon. I just believe "prisoner" means in prison and "free" means free.)

[Bill Akins]

62ColtNavy wrote:
But be assured that as far as I know, a black powder firearm is still a firearm, and felons cannot possess them lawfully.

We do need to be careful with what terms we use when we discuss muzzleloading weapons. Even if in an individual's mind they consider muzzleloaders to be a "Firearm".....we must remember that under Federal law at least, that muzzleloading weapons are not legally classified as "Firearms". If they were, we could not have them delivered directly to our doorsteps without going through an FFL as we can in many if not most states.

According to Federal law muzzleloaders and modern copies of muzzleloaders are antique weapons. They are not a "Firearm"....at least under federal law.

The Federal National Firearms Act (NFA) specifically exempts a muzzleloading (loose powder and ball) weapon from being classified as a "firearm". As far as FEDERAL law goes, a released convicted felon without their rights restored, can legally own a muzzleloader.

However: state laws vary. State law can be MORE restrictive than Federal law. In some states whose laws almost exactly mirror Federal law in this regard, a released convicted felon may legally own a muzzleloading weapon. However in other states whose gun laws are more restrictive than Federal law, it is a STATE (not Federal) crime for that released felon to own a muzzleloader.

Then in some states a muzzleloading weapon only becomes a firearm under their STATE law if it is used in a crime. It's a huge confusing, conflicting mish-mash of laws varying from state to state. And you have to know what the law is in YOUR particular state. The only good thing about the Federal NFA (if anything could be good about a Federal law that infringes on our 2nd amendment...but you know what I mean) is that it very clearly exempts muzzleloaders from being classified as "firearms".

It depends entirely on what the law is of the state where the released convicted felon lives.

It's all baloney anyway. The NFA and all other Federal, state, County and municipal laws having to do with antique muzzleloading weapons and or actual firearms are all an infringement upon our 2nd amendment rights. None of them are actually valid as law as per the constitution and all of them infringe upon our constitutional bill of rights 2nd amendment. But since the courts uphold these 2nd amendment infringing laws and since our Federal, State, County and municipal governments enforce these unconstitutional laws, by either incarcerating or killing citizens who will not follow those unconstitutional laws, we are stuck with either obeying their tyranny or suffering the consequences.


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[MythBuster]

I know a convicted felon here in KY. While he was on probation he asked about hunting with a muzzleloader or a bow and they said NO. They told him that in Ky they could send him back to the joint for having ANYTHING that is capable of launching a projectile including a slingshot and they did not even want to find out one of his kids has pea shooter in the house.

[MythBuster]

Posted by Model- P "You do understand how easy it is to be charged with a felony nowadays"

Yes I do. About 20 years ago I was dating this nut case. I rented two movies from a video store in her town. We watched the movies and when I left the house she promised to return the movies.

She returned the movies alright but to the wrong store. I had no idea this happened because no one from the movie place called me.

One day the country sheriff showed up with papers telling me I had to appear in court in her county. I was charged with a felony.

After I found the movies and returned them and paid a huge late fee it was too late to stop the court appearance. They dropped the charges but if things had not worked out I could be a "felon" today.

[orangello]

Does not concern me at all; at least they are trying to follow the rules.

[maillemaker]

I have no problem with ex-cons losing their second amendment rights.

The unfortunate truth is most firearm homicides are committed by people with huge rap sheets, including felonies.

Maybe these people are safe enough to be let out of prison and not have to have the public support them, but the data is pretty clear that they shouldn't own firearms any more.

Steve

[ZVP]

I seriously doubt a felon would plan a crime with a BP firearm but is it a gun and when they got convicted they gave up a lot of rights. The most powerfull and important is the right to Vote and many don't even care...
I think no guns means no guns.
ZVP

[Bill Akins]

Maillemaker wrote:
Maybe these people are safe enough to be let out of prison and not have to have the public support them, but the data is pretty clear that they shouldn't own firearms any more.

There are many categories of "crimes" that are labeled as felonious. From murder all the way to the "technical" felonies that are questioned by some if they should even be classified as felonies at all. And there are various opinions expressed by members here as to what they feel about the validity of some persons who have been labeled as a "felon".
Personally, I am keeping that particular opinion of mine to myself. Lol.

But whether one believes released convicted felons shouldn't possess firearms or not is not the issue here in question. We already know released convicted felons who have not had their rights restored cannot under federal law possess a "FIREARM". But we must remember, under Federal law, muzzleloaders are NOT firearms (but may be classified as such under some state's laws that are more restrictive than Federal law).

If one is of the opinion that convicted felons shouldn't own any kind of item that COULD be construed as a weapon, be it a muzzleloader, airgun/BB gun/pellet gun, speargun, archery, slingshot, bowie knife, or even a turkey carving knife, that is a different story. But those are not FIREARMS under Federal law.

But again, that was not the question posed by the original poster which was specifically questioning if a convicted felon could legally own a muzzleloader. Under Federal law and if the state in which they reside has no more restrictive laws to the contrary....they can.


The National Firearms Act (NFA) specifically exempts muzzleloading weapons and replicas of muzzleloading weapons from the NFA and thus muzzleloading weapons are not considered FIREARMS under Federal law.

Since muzzleloaders are part (and a large part) of this forum, it would be good for us to remember they are not classified as firearms under federal law and try our best to call them "weapons, revolvers, muzzleloader, etc" anything other than a firearm (which they are not), because if WE who use them start calling them "Firearms" when they Federally are not, it isn't a far stretch for everyone including the Feds to start thinking of them that way too.

Laws become laws when societal culture becomes the accepted norm and accepted status quo. How does that happen? By society accepting the concept of something being a certain way. And how does that come about? By people growing up and talking about it and everyone LEARNING to accept something as a certain way they are used to believing it to be. Once that is accomplished, it eventually becomes a law.

We wouldn't want to aid our muzzleloaders in becoming considered by ourselves as well as society as "firearms" and thus next on the legislative agenda to reclassify as "FIREARMS"....all because we forgot and spread the erroneous notion that they are FIREARMS. When I speak of them I strive personally to remind myself to call them a muzzleloader. "Muzzleloader" being the best term that doesn't engender thoughts by others of a scary "WEAPON", "GUN" or "FIREARM". I try to not even call them a gun (although they are) because of how others will confuse a muzzleloading "gun" with a "firearm". Something for us all to consider.



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[Model-P]

The unfortunate truth is most firearm homicides are committed by people with huge rap sheets, including felonies.


In other words, prohibiting possession doesn't work, does it?:eek: (Think about it!) You're endorsing a system that only hurts those who are trying to go straight. It's the same as any gun control law.

[Model-P]

But whether one believes released convicted felons shouldn't possess firearms or not is not the issue here in question.........But again, that was not the question posed by the original poster which was specifically questioning if a convicted felon could legally own a muzzleloader.

Actually, Bill, his question was, "Anyone else concerned about this?"

[sltm1]

Now here's a question, why is it that a person who commit's a felony (non-violent), be it drug related, not returning video tapes, cheating on their taxes etc, etc, is never fully forgiven in the eye's of the law? As was mentioned earlier, it's getting easier and easier to commit a felony...anybody out there worried about being the next felon? Example, I have 2 older rancher friends who graze their beef on BLM land. They were checking their stock on a rainy day (on horse back), and started casually talking to a "forrest cop". She asked if they were worried about coyotes getting the calves that time of year, the answer was, "yes" by both men. She then asked if they carried weapon's for such and emergency. They both nodded yes and one pulled back his slicker and showed her the old single action he carried. She immediately drew her gun, called for backup and had them arrested. They were both convicted of felonies for posessing concealed weapons (on BLM land). In a fair court of law the gun's should have been labled "tool's". They had 60 day's to sell all firearms and got 5 years probation. These are a couple of the "felon's" some of you guy's are so worried about.

[Bill Akins]

Model-P wrote:
Actually, Bill, his question was, "Anyone else concerned about this?"

True Model-P. However, American Eagle's above question has no meaning unless it was explained by him (which it was) as to what the "THIS" was that he was talking about. The "THIS" he was asking if anyone was concerned about, was this....

American Eagle wrote:
I kept coming across tons of threads asking if a felon can own a black powder firearm.

I believe it is clear American Eagle was asking if anyone was concerned about if convicted felons could own black powder muzzleloaders. Unless I'm missing something which of course is possible, to me that means his question was (to paraphrase)....Is anyone concerned about convicted Felons being able to own black powder firearms.

I just wanted those who may not know to realize that black powder muzzleloaders are not legally Firearms under Federal law. So it would be impossible for a convicted Felon to own a muzzleloader that was a firearm under FEDERAL LAW, because Muzzleloaders are not considered firearms under the Federal NFA. They are considered "firearms" in a few more restrictive law states and in some other states strictly for the purposes of not allowing convicted felons to have them even though for all other legal purposes they are not legally firearms for anyone else not a convicted felon in that state. (Such is the variance of what a convicted felon may possess from state to state).

I just wanted to make sure everyone here understands that per Federal law, muzzleloaders are NOT firearms. And also that we should be careful ourselves to not call them what they are not lest they become so.

That was all.


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[arcticap]

In some states it's a gray area of the law and lower judges are left to decide if the muzzle loader is a firearm or if its possession is an offense or not.
It's certainly less risky for a judge to apply a broad interpretation of what constitutes a firearm or a possession violation which leaves the felon needing to foot the bill for an appeal.

[American Eagle]

I'm sorry my post caused some controversy. Since every revolver, pistol or rifle I own is classed as a firearm, I have gotten used to calling everything a firearm.

I'm just getting started with black powder weapons, so I am going to have to drill into my head the vocabulary of my new hobby. Now I know how a novice feels when he refers to a magazine as a clip in front of gun enthusiasts. Anyway, I'm sure it won't be the last time I mislabel something, but I'll do my best to learn all the correct terminology relating to black powder weapons.

[Hawg]

I've always call a mag a clip. If the anal retentives can't deal with it pizz on'em.:D