Ever try this sequence of double taps?

[sliponby]

A little less than a year ago, I took a very intensive 2 day defensive handgun course taught by a well respected instructor located in North Alabama.

His instructions as to the sequence to follow when responding to a threat that forces you to fire your weapon to defend yourself is: 2 to COM, 2 to the pelvic region, then to the head if necessary.

His reasoning is that the head is a difficult target to hit under stress and that shots to the pelvic region will likely result in the threat going down.

Anyone else ever practice this sequence?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416452
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450786

Not a big fan of the practice myself; for the reasons already discussed in the previous threads above. Not saying it never has a place; just that the niche where it is useful is a lot smaller than appreciated.

[Sefner]

I've heard two reasons for shooting to the pelvis:

1. Lots of veins and blood flow through there.
2. A shot to the bone there might shatter the pelvis and prevent the criminal from walking or running.

I see #1 as a good reason to shoot at COM. The organ the powers blood flow is right there. I'm no doctor, but I'd assume there's lots of veins and blood flow around your heart and lungs.

I see #2 as a very weak "it might happen and if it does it might have this effect but maybe not". First you have to actually hit bone. Then you have to actually have the blow be powerful enough (ie: not go through a heavy leather belt or jeans). Then the round has to hit in just the right part of the bone. Then the round has to be coming in at just the right angle. Then the bone has to be weak enough to shatter. Then the criminal has to not have a gun cuz he can still shoot you with a shattered pelvis.

I'd rather my self-defense strategy not rely on whether or not the bad guy drank enough milk when he was a kid. OK That last part was a joke I just thought up, I don't actually believe that so don't flame me for it :D

[kraigwy]

In his book, "Shooting to Live" CAPT William E. Fairbairn wrote of shooting the pelvic area.

He was the chief of the Shanghai PD during a period when they were plagued with gangs and was involved on one way or the other in over 600 shootings.

He reports, even with the 45ACP very few people were totally put down when shot. He tells of several incidents where the bandit would be hit several times yet had to be pistol whipped to be subdued.

He found that pelvic shots were effective, though they may not incapacitate a person, they normal caused them to drop their weapon and grab their stomach.

I think there is a lot to be said for pelvic shots.

[jon_in_wv]

After hearing the argument for and against the pelvic area shots I just focus on COM to chest shots. I think the chances of lung, heart or other vital organ hits are better than the chances of damaging the pelvis or hip socket enough to cause a stop.

[threegun]

I teach transitioning to the Pelvic "girdle" if the COM is not having an effect and if a head shot hit isn't practical due to movement, shooting ability, range, etc.

My reasoning is similar. Hits to the pelvis area will impede movement and the area contains the femoral arteries, bladder, testicles, and penis. The area is very large and easy to hit under stress. A miss high is COM and low is the legs. The area is less effected by canting. Its rare for this area to be cover by kevlar.

While a GOOD head shot will always be best, even better than COM, it is very difficult to get. The slightest of head movement may not equal a complete miss but it may change the bullet path enough to make what would have been an instant kill, into a nasty gash, allowing the bad guy to fight on. Getting the bullet on the correct path makes the part of the head that needs to be hit even smaller.

I am a hugh fan of this transition and have been for years.

[TylerD45ACP]

^+1 that makes sense when a headshot is not available due to the variables mentioned. I think the reasoning is pretty sound as well. Its another tool in the SD box as far as im concerened. I am still shooting COM then if the head shot is not available and it fails to stop I would use this technique.

[oldkim]

I do enjoy reading these threads on SD when most folks here will only practice from a stagnant shooting range.

The drill is good... don't get me wrong but when you add the component of movement from both you the shooter and/or the shooting target... it's not as easy to hit "COM" let alone the head or any other part of the body (under stress and shooting on the move).

So with all the comments here... how many have and can shoot on the move?

Put that in your equation and you really understand how hard it is to shoot... a head shot.

One should practice many drills... But as many have said... shoot until the threat stops... not just shoot your drill.

[kraigwy]

Shooting on the move isn't that difficult to master. If anyone is interested I recommend getting the USAMU/CMP "Close Quarter Marksmanship" DVD from CMP's bookstore for $6.95. Taught by the best shooters in the world, the AMU.

It covers:

Kit Set Up, 7 Principles of High Performan-
ce Shooting, Weapons Presentation, Accuracy, Targets, The
Reload, The Mental Game, Range Drills, The Ready Up Drill,
Recoil Management, Multiple Threat Engagements, Shooting on
the Move, Changing Gears Drills, Alternate Position, Weapons
Transition & Malfunctions.

It's easy to follow, cheap, and tells you pretty much everything you need to learn in CQM.

[oldkim]

For those wanting a direct link:

http://estore.odcmp.com/Store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=784DVDCQM&item=&sfv=&cat=BKS&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=&note1=&note2=&note3=&note4=&note5=&max=100

Yes, shooting on the move is easy... that's why "everyone" can do it....

I say that with lots of fun.. but seriously it's not easy to practice and learn.

There's learning from the internet.. movies (DVD) and learning from books... but you need hands on practice to master. Most ranges do not let you practice shooting on the move.... drawing from your holster.

If your range does... consider yourself lucky and fortunate.

[chadstrickland]

I agree with the pelvis shot if the situation deems it necessary, otherwise im going head or center mass :)

[Mudinyeri]

In all seriousness, I would (and do) spend a lot more time practicing shooting on the move while looking for cover than I would practicing shooting a part of the body smaller than the body itself.

When you can consistently put 100% of your shots inside the outline of a life-size torso target while looking for cover and shooting on the move while obtaining cover ... then it's time to start narrowing down what you're shooting at.

I had a couple buddies who had become quite adept at putting rounds into a playing card glued to a human-size/shape target at approximately the bottom of the throat. Their theory was that the area would be left unprotected if the BG was wearing armor.

After accepting their challenge to hit the same spot and achieving about 50% accuracy, I challenged them to attempt the same feat while on the move toward cover a few yards away. None of us could hit the playing card. After realizing this, I went back to point-shooting at COM. I was close to 100% on target. Anecdotally, "aim small, miss small" doesn't seem to work as well in active shooting drills.

[Occam's Razor]

Whatever you have to do to stop the threat which caused you to react is a good reaction. I don't teach any single specific kata or sequence of drills. It's all a viable target once the SHTF. I do concentrate more on the center line i.e. the CNS (central nervous system) by placing a piece of tape or 3x5 cards down the middle of the target being used. But I also teach a lot of one handed shooting as well. The chances of you getting 2 hands on your pistol in a home invasion (holding a door, holding the wife, holding the kids/dog) or in a fight on the street are pretty slim. Just my thoughts and what I teach as options.

[farmerboy]

I agree with last post. Sounds good to aim here or there or at the head but things sometimes happen so fast its merely shooting to stop the attack first. wherever and whichever way possible.

[threegun]

True that our ultimate goal is to stop the threat. Still we practice malfunction drills, weak hand drills, reload drills, and many other drills so that if they are needed we don't have to think about it when the SHHTF.

A failure to stop drill should be practiced as well. What if the bad guy isn't effected by your hits to his COM? A smooth and seamless transition in the face of such failure would increase your chances of survival by eliminating wasted time thinking about what to do and putting hits in another effective area.

The traditional drill involved transitioning to the head. Some of us that shoot on the move find this to be a less than reliable target given the movement involved by both parties.

The goal however is to simply move your fire to a different location should COM fail to stop. To do so with as smooth a transition as possible.

[threegun]

I do enjoy reading these threads on SD when most folks here will only practice from a stagnant shooting range.

The drill is good... don't get me wrong but when you add the component of movement from both you the shooter and/or the shooting target... it's not as easy to hit "COM" let alone the head or any other part of the body (under stress and shooting on the move).

I know how bad my shooting got, compared to practice, while under the stress of a competition. It simply cannot be stressed enough to be prepared for a serious degradation of your abilities under life and death stresses.

[TylerD45ACP]

I agree, everyone on this forum has probably experienced adrenaline rushes. I can only IMAGINE what it must be like when you are fighting for life or death. Skills will probably drop off dramatically , I agree.

[threegun]

Tyler, Then you get tunnel vision, hearing loss, and the slow motion effect. These happened to me during a really close call here at the shop I work at.

[TylerD45ACP]

Yea, I know exactly what you mean. I agree fully. I dont know what you experienced but your dead on. The tunnel vision comes, clamy hands that feel like you have boxing mits on even though its just your fingers and they dont work well, the hearing loss and slow motion effect is also a major factor. When life and death is thrown into the equation the stakes are just higher and therefore, more adrenaline. Your body is actually going into a defensive mode preparing for injury which takes blood away from your extremeties, thus making your hands not work, you know the feeling? That makes me think HARD about the ability to actually fire accurately. What was the close call if you dont mind me asking?

[threegun]

A customer walked into our pawnshop intent on scaring us. He pulled what turned out to be a bb gun from under a leather jacket and pointed it at my coworker.

It was to hot for a jacket. He was looking and acting very suspicious. He pulled the gun from under his left armpit ala shoulder holster. He pointed it at my coworker before letting it role on his trigger finger.

I was taking up trigger travel on my model 20 Glock while climbing his leg before my brain recognized the gun as a bbgun. Thankfully I was able to stop.

[farmerboy]

if hed have shot the bb gun could he have possibly put your coworkers eye out? what happened to the rest of story? did he get charged and go to jail, run away, ?????

[TylerD45ACP]

WOW:eek:... That must have been intense. Especially when you found out it was a bbgun. I hope someone gave that idiot a good smack upside the head and told him how close he came. Good thing you were able to stop, sounds like you reacted pretty well to the situation. Hope nothing like that ever happens to you again. What an Idiot though he could be sleeping in a box right now. Peoples stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

[Rifleman 173]

Too many rounds. Two to the chest and one to the head works wonders on a bad attitude. It's called the Mozambique shooting pattern. You use 3 rounds instead of 5 rounds. Those 2 extra rounds might come in later to save your life in some shooting situations. Don't waste ammo!!!

[Lee Lapin]

Old military axiom: No plan survives contact with the enemy intact.

lpl

[threegun]

We called police and scolded the idiot before he walked out. He didn't care that he was being yelled at and didn't care that I was about 2.5 pounds into a 5 pound trigger away from launching a 10mm glaser safety slug at him.

To my knowledge the police didn't even look for him much less charge him.

Here is the play by play and what I learned from this event. Hope this explains it. Hard to describe the event and my reaction so its kinda jumbled up.

My coworker was Microgunner and this happened many years ago.

I was at work at the Pawnshop with my coworker Microgunner (MG). It was very slow and MG was reading an article from a Shotgun News Magazine to me. Our door buzzer went off indicating someone was coming in (since the shop was empty). I look to my right and in comes a very tall & thin man dressed in a full lengh trench style leather jacket. It was not cold outside. Immediately my internal poop meter sounded. I turned to my right to face the threat as he continued across the show floor and directly toward MG, he didn't see me IMO. As he made it almost half way he reach under his left arm under the coat as if to grasp a firearm from a shoulder holster. I see this and begin to draw my holstered Glock 20 just in case. Simultaniously he began to ask MG "how much can I get for this"...........his hand begins to remove a firearm from beneath the coat. I'm in the middle of my draw and now see the gun. The man finishes the pull and begins to assume a one handed shoulder forward type stance only he was still walking toward MG. He levels the gun on MG and then says "bb gun". I get to about his hip when the light goes off and I realize that it was a crossman bb gun (the dart shooting on that looks like a 1911). I stop pulling the trigger and lower my gun. I stopped my draw before he said BB Gun or pointed the gun at MG (just to give you guys a feel for how fast this ended)

The combination of odd behavior and the look and then of course reaching for a gun caused me to draw. I begin my draw and it feels as though my hand is moving very very slow. I see a gun coming out from the jacket. I begin to climb the bad guys leg with my G20 planning on firing once it reaches his shoulder area (badguys left side was facing me). I remember thinking several things in the micro second it took to draw and climb his leg. First I was concerned that I might miss because this idiot was so skinny and MG would be shot as a result. I thought how big his gun was (don't know why but it popped up in my head). I kept telling myself over and over to find my front site. Finally I said wait its a BB Gun.

All these things happened in the time it took to draw, about 1/2 second back then.

I learned that stress causes slow motion feeling. I got it and tunnel vision and some hearing loss. I learned that it is possible to train on something and then use it even under stress (to find my front site).

The store video and MG verified my draw to be as fast as usual yet it felt like a very long time and like I had lost dexterity. It is my belief that my brain was computing so much faster than normal that this is why things felt like slow motion. I was just as fast but my brain was faster.

This experience has made me train as I wish to fight. I still insist on finding my front site for any shooting drill. I have added movement because I now understand how difficult it is to perform under stress. If I can reduce my adversaries hit chances by movement perhaps my misses won't automatically equal losing.

I can't stress how real this was. The bad guy himself said he was trying to scare microgunner. It looked like he was taking aim to fire before he finally let the bb gun role forward on his finger to surrender it for pawning.

My draw was fast enough to insure that I would have easily fired first. I was clearly able to see my front site on the bad guy. Bad thing is it was bigger than he was (at least thats what I remember).

[TylerD45ACP]

Wow, that sounds like one heck of a situation to be in. Im glad you guys were ok and it wasnt anything very serious. Everything you said makes sense to me about the hands and the front sight being bigger then him. Was the draw automatic once you saw what was happening, reflexive? The slow motion is defintley because of the adrenaline, you're brain truly works at an amazingly fast pace. Thanks for sharing your story I am always interested in hearing about real life reactions. It helps me to run through my own head and think about what I would and could do. The 10MM :D was a good SD choice and would have performed quite nicely, what were you using for loads? The only problem is like you said they guy was turned and presented a smaller target, the shot had to count because of the situation and MG. Sounds like a very intense moment, with a show of a Darwin Award Winner, had you not had as much self control. Thanks, that was interesting.

[sliponby]

I try to teach my son that there are very few "accidental deaths". Most people die from stupidity. By car, diving into shallow water, driving into the path of a train, negilence with a firearm, etc., etc. Calling it an "accident" is just being considerate of the loved ones of the person who died from stupidity and now have to go through the process of grief and burying the poor fool.

That guy who walked into your pawn shop almost died from stupidity. Kudos for the way you handled it threegun and thanks for relating the story.

[threegun]

Thanks guys. I'm glad you were able to follow that as my writing isn't very good.

Was the draw automatic once you saw what was happening, reflexive?

I'm guessing yes because I don't remember thinking draw. Once I realized the guy was trouble and reaching for what could be a gun, the draw just started. It did feel like forever to clear the holster.


It helps me to run through my own head and think about what I would and could do

Me too. This event changed me alot. It confirmed some of the things some of the "experts" were saying.

what were you using for loads

Back then the first round was a Glaser Safety Slug Silver. This would have been followed by Corbon 135 grain JHP or 175 grain Silvertips (I can't remember if I had changed from the silvertips to the corbons at that point in time).