SD handgun trigger job question.

[OsOk-308]

I was thinking about adjusting the trigger pull on my 1911r1, great firearm but just a little rough of a trigger for me. I love to shoot it at the range, and I think that giving it a better trigger pull would make range time more fun. (And everyone knows you practice/shoot a gun more if you like it more). I would be using this as a SD handgun, but a buddy of mine told me that if you are involved in a shooting incident and you use a gun that has had the trigger adjusted you can have more charges pressed against you if you go on trial, is this true? Should I not think about adjusting the trigger on my SD gun? DISCLAIMER ***I am in no way, shape or form thinking about being in any sort of shooting, I am mostly curious about whether or not adjusting this trigger is a bad idea from a legal standpoint***

Thanks for any input given.

[Aguila Blanca]

Yes, in the event of a self defense shooting a lightened trigger can be used against you.

That said, much depends on how light is "light." If your trigger is gritty and VERY heavy, cleaning it up and setting it to somewhere around 4-1/2 to 5 pounds would be defensible. There's a discussion on the M1911.ORG forum right now about 1911 trigger pull weight for police duty use, and several police armorers have responded with a minimum weight of 4-1/2 to 5 pounds as being the minimum safe weight.

If you're think of a 2 to 2-1/2 pound target trigger -- not a good idea for a carry or home defense weapon. IMHO, unless you are a bullseye competitor and need a gun set up for that, it's also not a good idea to have your range gun adjusted lighter than your carry gun.

[Eagle0711]

If you are fearful for your life ang justified under the law to use deadly force, the trigger pull is generally not a problem. If you live in a anti-gun area the prosecutor could make a big deal out of it, especially if you told the cops that the gun went off accidently. Neglience is a componet of a manslaughter charge.

If you stay in the 4.5 lb.rande you should be ok. This should work well for the range. Have the creep tken out so it's a clean break with no overtravel and it will work well for the range.

The practice of keeping your finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire should keep you on firm ground with legal and moral matters.

If you are really worried you should talk with a criminal lawyer. I am not one, just my observations and common sense.

[sirsloop]

Show me the law that says you cannot have a gun with a light trigger pull. Its nonsense, but I could see how some prosecuter could try to convince a stupid jury that your "hair trigger" means you are a loose cannon. I would be more fearful of accidental discharge in the event of a break in or something... all that adrenaline pumping, etc.

[bravo124]

No. You can not have extra charges put against you for legally modifying your trigger to your specifications. If your shoot is justified, the only thing the lawyer can do is try to make you look bad on the stand by saying that you made your gun with a "hair trigger" to be a more effective killer. In a sense, he is right, but so what. If you're using your weapon for "self defense" then you want to be as effective as possible in what you're doing. Remember, the main goal hear is to win the encounter. Whatever upper hand that you can get, whether it be better training or legally modifying your weapon to aide you in becoming more proficient in that weapon is what you should be striving for. On the other hand, if your shoot is not a justified shoot, then the trigger job will be the least of your worries. Either way, you'll probably get sued by someone. So go get the trigger job if it safely helps you become a better shooter. Good luck and hope this helps.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The big issue with a trigger job on a self-defense handgun is that in order to claim self-defense, a shooting must be intentional. Having a very light trigger raises the factual question of whether or not your shooting was intentional. Maybe you were holding him at gunpoint for police and you accidentally shot him? That's not self-defense - that's negligent homicide.

As an added bonus, your homeowner's insurance often won't pay for an intentional tort; but they do cover accidents. So in a civil suit, there is incentive to say your self-defense shooting was actually accidental in order to shake down the insurance company.

Police investigating the shooting aren't going to rely totally on your statements. They have to investigate the forensic evidence as well and if you've got a very light trigger, that is one more angle they have to consider.

On the plus side, criminals pretty regularly shoot each other and then claim it was an accident (because negligent homicide is preferable to murder for them). As a result, there is usually considerable testimony from the state's firearms examiners about what they consider to be a "hair trigger" in the court records.

I've looked at quite a few appellate cases in Texas and I would agree that 4.5-5lbs is a good range. It is less than you'll see on most police departments (who are liability conscious) but still well above what the firearms examiners here have described as a hair trigger in past testimony in the cases I've looked at. Not sure how Colorado views it; but I'd be surprised if they were much different on that.

I'd also note that for me personally, a crisp trigger is much more important than the pull weight. I'd much rather have a 6 or 7lb trigger that broke well than a 4lb mushy trigger.

[OsOk-308]

I was thinking about getting it set at about 5 lbs anyway, and just getting the creep taken out of it. I've gone to a shooting school before, and since I learned how to shoot in the boy scouts both the BSA and my dad always drilled it into me to keep your finger off the trigger. So I think that the negligent discharge is much less of a possibility. As far as what I've seen, a 5 lb. pull sounds rational and it also might help me tighten up my groups a little bit more at the range. Thank you guys for all your input.

[sirsloop]

As long as you keep your mouth shut and don't talk to the police, your lawyer should inform you that you need to tell the police it was intentional in self defense.

...Another great example why you should not say a dang word to the police after a shooting. You're going to jail one way or another, so you might as well get your free counsel before you say something that will destroy your legal defense in the near future. You'll have PLENTY of time to tell your story... right after the fact is not the time. You'll probably be mentally distraught, fatigued, and will not be able to correctly remember the events (how many shots, timeline, etc).

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Another great example why you should not say a dang word to the police after a shooting.

Actually, there are several good reasons to talk to police after a shooting. Like most other self-defense topics, it isn't cut and dried - you don't want to be too chatty; but there is important information you need to convey if you want to help your case.

We've previously discussed this subject in Tactics & Training in this thread:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429263&highlight=talk+to+police

The Armed Citizen's Network also put out a great article on the Larry Hickey shooting in Arizona. In that case, Hickey chose to remain silent and ultimately that choice hurt him more than it helped him (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/Network_2010-9.pdf).

[AK103K]

I'd also note that for me personally, a crisp trigger is much more important than the pull weight. I'd much rather have a 6 or 7lb trigger that broke well than a 4lb mushy trigger.
Yup, me too.

The gunsmiths always seem to want to try and talk you into a light, "games" trigger.

Other than a couple of Springfield 1911's, most all the factory guns Ive bought in the last 25 years or so, have all had decent triggers right out of the box, and no trouble at all.

I personally prefer a "stock" gun for carry, for a couple of reasons. It reduces likely problems induced by "improving" it beyond its design, I can have exact duplicates, or pick up any others like it, and have no problems shooting it, and it wont give a prosecutor any more leverage.

I think more often than not, people try to improve the gun instead of improving themselves. The guns are rarely lacking.

[markj]

Smooth it up, it isnt like you got a fitz special or sumpting :) not that I wouldnt carry one, but it is set up for very fast action.

[madmo44mag]

Interesting thread!
I have a Para Ordnance LDA with just barley 3lb trigger pull and noting has been done to it.

I doubt it would be a problem since the trigger has never been worked but this is an interesting question!

[AK103K]

I had a 4" S&W Model 29 that came from the factory with a scary light SA trigger. You could actually push the hammer down with your thumb when it was cocked, without pulling the trigger.

It did have a great DA trigger too, which suited me anyway, as I only shoot them that way. I just cut the hammer spur off, and narrowed and smoothed the target trigger, and it was one of my favorite revolvers for a long time. I sold it in a weak moment, and its one of the few I regret selling, and wish I had it back.

[sirsloop]

The Armed Citizen's Network also put out a great article on the Larry Hickey shooting in Arizona. In that case, Hickey chose to remain silent and ultimately that choice hurt him more than it helped him.

This has got to be the worst case of police work and biased political agenda every recorded in modern history. I would not guess that even a below par police and legal response would be like that case. That's like the worst case of BS ever recorded in the last 40-50 years. Clearly the dude shot in self defense, but the police and the politicians had an agenda. Never said it would be easy peasy to walk free on a SD shooting.

[BikerRN]

This has got to be the worst case of police work and biased political agenda every recorded in modern history. I would not guess that even a below par police and legal response would be like that case. That's like the worst case of BS ever recorded in the last 40-50 years. Clearly the dude shot in self defense, but the police and the politicians had an agenda. Never said it would be easy peasy to walk free on a SD shooting.

Welcome to the Old Pueblo.

Tucson is one really crappy place in an otherwise decent state.

Biker

[FireForged]

Anything is possible but I would like to see even one example of a situation where someone:

Intentionally fired a handgun at a person, in a situation where the use of deadly force is clearly lawful ...but because of a trigger job, their otherwise lawful action was deemed unlawful. If this has ever happened, someone please post a link.

[AK103K]

Well, "hypothetically" on paper I did it yesterday on a hostage target with my buddys Nighthawk.

The trigger, while a very nice "target" trigger, its WAY to light for anything serious, and Im more accustomed to Glocks and 1911's with heavy triggers. For the first time ever in five years shooting at this target series, I hit the hostage when the gun doubled unintentionally due to the trigger. The first round went right where I was looking when it wet off, the unintentional round gave the hostage a third eye. :)

If it had been for real, I believe there would be some trouble coming my way.

Light triggers are fine for range guns, on anything serious, they need to be "reasonable".

[Jimmy10mm]

You could actually push the hammer down with your thumb when it was cocked, without pulling the trigger. In that case it was a damaged or defective sear/hammer relationship. Lockup means just that. If you can drop a hammer by pushing on it without pulling the trigger it is broke.

I like a 4 or 5 lb trigger for SD. Mostly carry DAO for that reason. I don't want to hear a loud noise that I didn't intend. :)