500 yard elk rifle [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums

700sage

February 13, 2011, 12:13 AM

Here's the deal with elk. They have a very thick, tough skin and heavy bones. A .280 would be fine for an elk hunt with quality bullets at good velocities. It would not be fine at 500 yards. It would probably kill the elk just fine. The problem you would run into is if the elk runs. You will not get an exit wound with the energy you have at that distance. The only blood trail will be from the entrance wound which can shrink back and close because of the extremely thick skin. The elk may run a mile or two and then die. With a shot at that distance you really want to be using a magnum gun. 7mm mag would suffice but I would go with a .30 caliber magnum just to make sure. It's always better to have more gun than you need to do the job. In this case I use a .300WSM shooting a 180grain accubond at 3150fps. I shot an elk last year at 461 yards with it. The bullet entered and exited as expected. The elk did run for about 50 yards and then dropped. Luckily I had an exit wound that threw blood everywhere. Finding the animal was no problem. I guess what I'm saying is that using a caliber that will enter and exit at expected hunting ranges is what I'd shoot for when choosing a gun for this size animal. .280 will do that but I'd keep my shots inside of 300 yards. Another thing to keep in mind is that the average hunter doesn't perform real well in the field at 300+ yards. Much practice at these longer ranges is a must if you intend to shoot at game this far away. 500 yards is a long shot for a hunting rifle. Do you even know what the wind drift is for your bullet with a 10mph crosswind at that range? Something to consider because (and I haven't looked this up I'm guessing based on rounds that I shoot and have looked up) your drift is probably in the realm of 12-14 inches.

lefteyedom

February 13, 2011, 01:15 AM

If you have a 500 yard shot, get on your belly and try to make it a 400 yard shot. Better yet a 350 yard shot. If it was only that easy.

Your 280 Remington with a 160 grain bullet would be fine for 90% of the elk shots you are likely to have. Bullet placement is everything.

If you break the spine or blow out the heart you will have your elk... Big if at 500 yards. You are not shooting at an "Elk" you are shooting at elk parts, lungs, heart, spine, or shoulder joint. Even if you get the range right you still have to deal with the wind drift.

I am sure that ether my 25.06 Antelope gun or my 308 deer rifle would do the job if I did my part. That said, my Elk(and larger) rifle is a 338 win mag, loaded with 225 grain bullets. It is the perfect balance of down range power and recoil tolerance for me. :)

I hate tracking wound game! especially game with a 500 yard head start!

.300 Weatherby Mag

February 13, 2011, 04:19 AM

.340 Weatherby

7mm Rem Mag Trajectory with a 210 grain bullet... Still has enough steam to get the job done at 500 yards...

surg_res

February 13, 2011, 05:17 AM

No, My gun of choice? Any of the above will do fine, just not at 500 yards. Being a good hunter is about taking a good shot, not about being a great bench-rest marksman.

scoobydoo6906

February 13, 2011, 05:27 AM

if you need to ask what caliber to use on an elk at 500 yards you really have no business shooting at an elk or any animal at that distance.

madcratebuilder

February 13, 2011, 07:16 AM

if you need to ask what caliber to use on an elk at 500 yards you really have no business shooting at an elk or any animal at that distance.

+1

There is no reason on earth to take a 500yd cold bore shot at any game animal.

If a shooter has the skill for this accurate of shooting then he should also have the skill to get with in 200yds of the animal.

Shooting at varmints at long range is one thing but never at game animals.

Rob3

February 13, 2011, 07:43 AM

I agree 100%. If the animal is 500 yards away you have more hunting to do.

Tbag

February 13, 2011, 08:24 AM

Have you ever shot your rifle at 500/600 yards? Lot's of things happen.

jmr40

February 13, 2011, 09:31 AM

Lots of reasons to take a 500 yard shot. Sometimes that is as close as your going to get. Elk have a very large kill zone compared to a whitetail so pinpoint accuracy is not nearly as critical.

Most experts claim 1500 ft lbs as the recommended minimum for elk. A 280 with a 160 gr bullet loaded at 2750fps at the muzzle will still have over 1600 ft lbs at 400, but just over 1400 at 500 yards.

That is borderline, but still about the same energy and trajectory as a 30-06 with 180 gr bullets. I'd prefer a 7 mag, but if a 280 is what you have I'd practice with it a lot at those ranges. If you can make consistent hits on an elk size target I'd go for it. But I'd also use a range finder and set a limit of no more than 450-500 yards. Any farther and I'd let it walk.

hooligan1

February 13, 2011, 09:51 AM

On that TV show "Best Of The West" those fellas load those Berger bullets to shoot long range. And from what I see, they are pretty consistant over 500 yds on elk. Most of what I see them use is the 7mm Rem Mag,,,,,,and I do own one!!:) But back to the OP's question, Does the .280 have what it takes? Borderline from all of what I've seen. Damn good bullets, and alot of practice, from a steady rest, wind just right, hell yeah it could be done, ETHICALLY! Practice hunting skills, and shooting skills, that is where shoeleather meets the pavement!!!;)

Huntergirl

February 13, 2011, 10:02 AM

Art Eatman

February 13, 2011, 10:18 AM

With a "serious" cartridge, anything past some 300 yards or so is much more an issue of the shooter's skill than the ballistics. It takes a fair amount of trigger time using field positions to really be able to hit critters in Ma Bell country.

jgcoastie

February 13, 2011, 10:18 AM

There is no good 500yd elk rifle.

There are plenty of 300-350 yard elk rifles, most of which have been stated above.

I dare say that ~95% of the members of this board (myself included) do not have what it takes to put 5 shots into 6" at 500yds from a bench, much less from field positions.

As stated previously... If the animal is 500 yards away you have more hunting to do.

It's called hunting for a reason. If you want to play the 500yd target game, try another endeavour known as benchrest shooting. The differences between the two are so vastly different, the only similarity is that you use rifles.

M.O.A.

February 13, 2011, 10:31 AM

i would have to say i would go with a 7 mag or 300 mag for 500 yards on elk

and yes iwould shoot at 500 to 600 yards with my 7 mag and yes i do have the ballistics on it and yes i can put 5 shoots in a 6" ring at 500yds all day long if u want and no im not a sniper or a long range shooter just a hunter that knows his rifle and loads that i shoot and but i do practice at varied ranges though the year

IDAHO83501

February 13, 2011, 11:04 AM

If you are good enough to hit an Elk in a kill zone @ 500 yards, and I stress if, then you should have something a little hotter than a .280. Buy a terrific scope, and put it on a 7mm Rem. mag, with 140-150 gr. quality bullet at a minimum. A 300 Win. mag or a 300 Weatherby mag with a 150-165 grain would be even better. A 338 Win. mag is a good round, but drops off fast after 250 yards. If you are serious about taking Elk at distances over 150-200 yards practice-practice-practice with a great gun and better scope.

gaseousclay

February 13, 2011, 11:20 AM

taylorce1

February 13, 2011, 12:18 PM

This is a nonissue, since IMHO, nobody really should be looking at a 500yd shot at an elk. More elk are crippled, yet unrecoverable from long range shots. This is inhumane. If a hunter can't get closer than 500yds, he should get out of the field.

+1

my assumption is that there are very few hunters than can humanely take down an elk at 500 yds. my other assumption is that most hunters have no business taking shots past 300 yds if they can avoid it.

-1 IMO

I'd sure love to see some statistics to back up Huntergirl's and your assumptions. There is quite a bit of game lost every year by shots most wouldn't consider long range. I know rifle, bow, and ML hunters who have lost an animal and spent day searching for it. It is going to happen sooner or later to most of us. It is what we do after messing up the shot that makes us ethical hunters.

I've muffed shots but luckily I've been able to recover the animal so far. I'm not saying there aren't idiots out there taking shots that they shouldn't. However, I find range has very little to with wounding of animals, but more to do with the person pulling the trigger or releasing the string being inexperienced and/or using bad judgment.

I know quite a few guys who could humanely take an elk at 500 yards. They are not the average hunter and have spent the time and money learning to shoot that far in field conditions. Most just choose not to take game at 500 however. Elk are big and tough but not bullet proof; a properly placed bullet will bring them down in short order every time.

I prefer not to hunt past 400 yards but depending on the day I can go much further. However if I can take a pronghorn or coyote at 400 yards with my hunting rifle, I know I can hit deer and elk effectively at longer ranges. Elk are big and offer much larger target area. I have shot enough to know as well when I shouldn't be taking those shots at 100 yards let alone 400+.

NWCP

February 13, 2011, 12:32 PM

While my .308 will take down an elk I feel that the .338 WinMag is a much better caliber for large game. As for 500 yards, that's a big stretch for even the best of shooters in the field. The closer you can get to the animal you want to take the better off you and your intended target are. That's where hunting skills come into play. Stalking the animal to get within an ethical shooting range is what the hunt is all about.

44 AMP

February 13, 2011, 12:53 PM

Jeff Cooper once wrote that if you had to take a shot at a game animal at more than 300 yards, you should be forced to sit down and write yourself a letter explaining why you had to do it. In TRIPLICATE! (no cabons). And I don't think he was wrong.

I do not hold with those who say they have to take a 500 yard shot because "sometimes that's the only shot you get". That is just greed. If you can't get closer, don't shoot. There is no "crime" in not getting the elk, that day. There is an ethical "crime" in shooting and losing the elk (or whatever game animal it is) because you just couldn't wait, or work for a better shot.

Sure, maybe you can hit the elk across the canyon. Maybe you can even hit it in the boiler room. How ya gonna git it back to the camp?

And how good are you at doping the wind, all the way between you and that elk a quarter mile away? How much does a light breeze (say 10mph) push that bullet off point of aim at that distance? Half an elk, maybe? Can you reliably compensate for that, in addition to the drop?

There are plenty of rifles that can do it. There are some shooters that can do it. There are very, very few good hunters that will do it.

I know which group I prefer to be in. The one that keeps the sport in sportsman.

gaseousclay

February 13, 2011, 12:58 PM

-1 IMO

I'd sure love to see some statistics to back up Huntergirl's and your assumptions. There is quite a bit of game lost every year by shots most wouldn't consider long range. I know rifle, bow, and ML hunters who have lost an animal and spent day searching for it. It is going to happen sooner or later to most of us. It is what we do after messing up the shot that makes us ethical hunters.

I've muffed shots but luckily I've been able to recover the animal so far. I'm not saying there aren't idiots out there taking shots that they shouldn't. However, I find range has very little to with wounding of animals, but more to do with the person pulling the trigger or releasing the string being inexperienced and/or using bad judgment.

I know quite a few guys who could humanely take an elk at 500 yards. They are not the average hunter and have spent the time and money learning to shoot that far in field conditions. Most just choose not to take game at 500 however. Elk are big and tough but not bullet proof; a properly placed bullet will bring them down in short order every time.

I prefer not to hunt past 400 yards but depending on the day I can go much further. However if I can take a pronghorn or coyote at 400 yards with my hunting rifle, I know I can hit deer and elk effectively at longer ranges. Elk are big and offer much larger target area. I have shot enough to know as well when I shouldn't be taking those shots at 100 yards let alone 400+.

i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the vast majority of hunters are inexperienced at shooting long distances, and that taking shots at even 400 yds is unthinkable, except in rare cases. just because you happen to know a few people that can shoot that far doesn't mean they should. yes, game will be lost even at shorter distances and yes, the person pulling the trigger should bear all responsibility if something goes wrong, but as someone here already mentioned, it's called hunting for a reason. even Clay Harvey, the author of The Hunter's Rifle says that even the most experienced hunters shouldn't be shooting at 400 yds, let alone 500, if they can help it.

gaseousclay

February 13, 2011, 01:00 PM

jmr40

February 13, 2011, 01:13 PM

500 yards on an elk size animal is not a difficult shot with only a little practice. Just because you are not comfortable does not mean it is not a chip shot for others. The kill zone on an elk is closer to 24", not 6".

Every Marine recruit is able to make that shot with iron sighted A-4's to get out of boot camp. Many have never fired a rifle before getting in the service.

M.O.A.

February 13, 2011, 01:56 PM

then how would u go sheep and goat hunting when most of the time ur shoot r over 300 yards and a lot of them r over 500 yards

huntinaz

February 13, 2011, 02:32 PM

To the OP, I would consider the 280 at 500 yards to be light for elk. If you are having to ask these questions and have never killed one past 150 yards then you have a lot of practice and learning to do before you should attempt to kill one at that distance . Of course this is just my opinion, I've only killed 10 or eleven elk so I'm certainly no expert. But to do it right, it takes a lot of practice shooting that distance and since you are an elk hunter you know that they are tough.

500 yards on an elk size animal is not a difficult shot with only a little practice. Just because you are not comfortable does not mean it is not a chip shot for others.

Agreed, well said. I get frustrated with the people who go on and on about shooting 500 yards isn't hunting. Come out here to AZ and hunt Coues deer with me, and tell me what I do isn't hunting. It takes skill to find a good area, glass up deer, stalk to within shooting range, spend days of trigger time pre-season and make a shot. Just because the furthest shot you can possibly take in the upstate new york forests is 150 yards doesn't mean that's the case all over the world. Just because you don't hunt that way doesn't mean it isn't hunting. Just because you can't shoot your rifle further than 300 yards doesn't mean that I can't.

The problem (in my opinion) with long range hunting is that people half-ass it. Most people don't spend the time necessary to develop a load that will put lead on target at long distances, and they don't shoot enough. Also a lot of guys don't have restraint. Maybe they are good out to 400 yards legitimately, but when they see an animal at 500 yards they shoot anyway and guess at holdover or spinning turrets. If you are going to do it, please take the time to do it right. There are certainly guys and gals who know how to do it and are good at it, and they out-hunt the internet-long-distance-trash-talkers every year. Check out http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums and browse the "rifle hunting for coues deer" section. You may have to go back a few pages for a lot of the stories. There are a lot of accomplished long-range hunters on this site.

hooligan1

February 13, 2011, 04:31 PM

Well, well, well, that nasty little term pop's up and some people dive over the edge:eek: The OP's question was whether a .280 would be sufficient up to 500 yds, and if not what the heck woukld you use. NOT IS IT ETHICAL TO BE A SLOPPY HUNTER AND TRY KILLIN ANIMALS AT DISTANCES NOBODY SHOULD BE SHOOTIN WHAT HAS'NT HAD PROPER TRAINING!!!:p Don't freak out people.... There are oodles of folks what CAN make a shot like this!!! :) Let's not forget he said 500 yds on an elk, NOT 1000 yds ON A DEER.... which has been discussed into oblivion on this forum beforehand. There are rifles and people that shoot these rifles that can EASILY and CLEANLY kill Elk at 500 yds.:rolleyes: It's not a stretch for these people. Look up the thread about "Best Groups", hell a 1/2 dozen of these fellas could easily make the shot. If I ever get to hunt Elk, the first thing I would concentrate on is that connection between me and my rifle... After that I would hire a great guide,(not just a good one but a great one), so that the distance between me and my bull is minimal... And when it comes tiome for me to take the shot I know I OWE it to the bull to take him cleanly, and not wound him.... First I know that it's a priviledge and not an inherited right to hunt. Now if the OP asked if it was an ethical practice to shoot elk, with a .280 at 500 yds,,, I would have to say only if the rifle was in the hands of someone that practiced stupendously for ever at the range and some practical target shooting. :o I gues I'm done,, sorry for the rant... no I'm not...

mathman

February 13, 2011, 05:38 PM

How about getting a little closer? :rolleyes:

trg42wraglefragle

February 13, 2011, 05:54 PM

A 338 lapua has twice as much energy need and also gives you the flexability of shooting it at 1000yards if it decideds to move

jmr40

February 13, 2011, 06:25 PM

A 300 yard shot on an elk size animal requires zero skill with modern cartridges. ANY of them will easily shoot flat enough and MOST have plenty of energy. At that range it is pretty much point and shoot. With a 24" kill zone and bullets that will only be 6" or so low with a 200 yard zero it is a chip shot even with iron sights. If you can't do that, you can't hit a deer at 50 yards.

Going to 400 yards is a little more difficult, but with better equipment, meaning a flatter shooting round and a good range finder it is not too dificult for anyone to master.

You start needing a little more skill when you get to 500 yards, but once again to anyone willing to burn a little powder, it is a skill that anyone can master.

I'm not condoning shooting at those ranges unless you have the skills to do so. I am suggesting that anyone hunting in the west needs to learn those skills.

I'm not driving 2000 miles one way, spending $500 for a license and possibly another $3000 for a guide and going home empty handed because I didn't spend the time to hone my shooting skills enough to take the only shot I had all week.

6mmal

February 13, 2011, 09:33 PM

A bunch of years ago in the Gros Ventre area I shot a 6X6 bull at about 250-300yrds w/7mm Rem Mag & 160gr Speer. Hot load and hit Elk in center of body behind front shoulder. He ran at least 3 miles and we found him by accident that afternoon. Almost no blood trail and another of our hunters saw him from a distance going down.
imho you need to break big bones and a lung shot just won't get it. Your 280 at 500yrds needs to be the golden bullet.
al

Outdoorsman

February 13, 2011, 11:13 PM

I'd not take that shot, not with that 280 on a elk. To ME that is not enough gun for the job you'd be asking of it. I'd suggest that for a elk hunt a better choice would be a 7 STW or perhaps better a 300 Weatherby both with 175 or 180 gr. Gamekings or of that boat tail spitzer type. The STW if compared to the 280 will give about 300 ft. lbs more impact, even then marginal (to me) at 500yd range. The 300 Wby would give 500+ lbs more.....

With one of those calibers you've got a load that will penitrate better. Will allow you a raking shot if needed out to 300 yds.

And if you practice, have no wind & a broadside standing shot at 500yds........go for it.

Your 280 would be fine out to 350-400yds, but I'd want more for anything more than that.

lefteyedom

February 13, 2011, 11:54 PM

I wrote a 500 word essay post to this thread then thought the wiser about positing it. So I am posting just one sentence about elk kill zones and long range animal shooting.

Seeing a cow elk with 14 bullet wounds made me want to puke.

Stillhunter

February 13, 2011, 11:57 PM

I'm not driving 2000 miles one way, spending $500 for a license and possibly another $3000 for a guide and going home empty handed because I didn't spend the time to hone my shooting skills enough to take the only shot I had all week.

Not trying to be sarcastic here,but wouldn,t it also raise your chances of success if you were to hone your stalking skills also,let,s say to at least 300yds.
By the way I think the 280 is to light for 500yds.300 win mag or 7mm mag would be my choice at that distance.

jgcoastie

February 14, 2011, 01:38 AM

then how would u go sheep and goat hunting when most of the time ur shoot r over 300 yards and a lot of them r over 500 yards

The same way people successfully bowhunt for them every year, you hunt!

Too many people think that they have what it takes just because they have the equipment to do so.

Jimmy Johnson could give you his car for the Daytona 500 after a few practice laps, a car he has won that very race with many times previously. You would lose the race, if you finished it at all... The equipment is good, but you, the operator are not. There is a small percentage of people that could pull that off, but the vast majority of people cannot and never will.

I'm not saying that anyone here does or does not have the shooting ability to kill an elk at 500yds. That's not the important question. The important questions are these:

- Can you accurately range an elk at that distance? Not even taking your angle to target into consideration, here's the drops...
Load: .338 Win Mag 250gr Nosler Partition @ 2660fps
Range: 480yds = 30" of drop
500yds = 36" of drop
520yds = 41"of drop

- Can you accurately read the wind and apply the correct adjustment to your scope for the wind between the muzzle and 500yds? It's not as straightforward as you think... And this is if you accurately judge the direction of the wind, a few degrees off and these numbers will change, a lot.
Load: .338 Win Mag 250gr Nosler Partition @ 2660fps
Wind (90 degree cross): 5mph = 10.6"
7mph = 15"
10mph = 21"

- Do you have to take the shot (RIGHT NOW!!)? There is always an option. You control whether you pull the trigger or not. I don't care how far you drove, how much money you spent, or what you went through to get to where you are... It's called hunting for a reason. There is a reasonable expectation of failure with any hunting endeavor, it's just part of it. While killing an animal is a big part of a hunt, it ain't the only part.

- Do you have the necessary experience to take an ETHICAL shot at this range? Any ol' retard can go out and start taking pot shots at elk and they may eventually hit it, but will it be an ethical shot that results in a quick kill, which will eliminate or significantly reduce the chance of losing the elk?

- Is taking this shot morally right? Is it an ethical thing to do? For most of us, no it's not.

- Can you get any closer? Yes, you can. And if you can't, then just how in the blue blazin hell do you plan on getting over there to get it if you do kill it?

44 AMP

February 14, 2011, 02:31 AM

The problem, as it is with so many things, is not that there are people who can do it, but that so many cannot, and think they can. So they try, and often fail, and it is the failures that tarnish the name and ability of those who actually can make those kinds of shots.

Also the idea that many have, that because the spent a great deal of money,traveled a great distance, they deserve a trophy, and will take shots beyond their ability, because they fear going home empty handed after all they have put out.

For many years guides have remarked on customers carrying "too much gun". Not too much for the job, but too much for the customer. Many go with big magnums, without being able to shoot them as well as they should. Costs too much to shoot, or kicks too much for enough practice to develope the skill needed, but thinking they have, so they take shots they shouldn't.

It is, I'm afraid very much a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole barrel, in many peoples opinion.

Bones

February 14, 2011, 04:44 AM

Yea, sure, we have all heard about the "Golden BB".

reloader28

February 14, 2011, 09:24 AM

I am very confident with the 280 at that range.

I dont have one personally, but my brother does. I'm not sure what loads hes loading, but at 400yds his 150gr's smack the steel plate harder than my hot 150gr SST's from my 30-06. Funny how some people will say that the 30-06 is big enough but not the 280. The case is the basically identical (30-06 case) and the bullet is almost the same diameter.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE

As far as the 500yd shot, some of you people need to get off your butt and start practicing a little. If you dont need that long of a shot where you are from, thats fine. Shut up and quit trying to tell others how to hunt.

There are places in this world where those 400yd+ shots are needed if you want to fill your tag. Just because you cant do it dont mean that nobody can. If you want to go home meatless, then thats your choice. As for me and most of the people I hunt with, we practice and dont have any problems with those long shots even on smaller deer and antelope. It really dont take alota practice to consistantly hit a 10"x10" steel plate at distance with modern equipment. Even a gun shooting 1 1/2" MOA shouldnt have any problems putting it in the boiler room of a deer at 500yds IF the shooter does his part.

That being said, if it is at all possible to get closer, we do. But, that is not always possible. So we practice shooting and have the confidence to do what we need to do.

Its ALL about the shooter. Around here, all we here is you shouldnt use anything less than a 300 mag for mulies and nothing less than a 338 ultri mag for elk. But its not the locals saying it. Its the non-residents that come in with some stupid notion that you need a Howizter to hunt with just because they dont put in the practice.

CPTMurdoc30

February 14, 2011, 09:48 AM

There is no reason on earth to take a 500yd cold bore shot at any game animal.

If a shooter has the skill for this accurate of shooting then he should also have the skill to get with in 200yds of the animal.

Shooting at varmints at long range is one thing but never at game animals.

Took the words right out of my head.

Great post......

JerryM

February 14, 2011, 10:00 AM

I am of the school who thinks that one should not shoot elk at 500 yards. Sure a good shot under the right conditions could hit one, but elk are tough and the shot might not kill soon enough to recover the animal.

Shooting under field conditions is not the same as on the range, although I see on TV getting out of the ATV and setting up the tripod, taking the range with the rangefinder, and then shooting. But shooting from a field position after stalking and not breathing naturally is a different thing.

But if I were to choose a 500 yard elk rifle it would be one of the .338s.

Regards,
Jerry

doofus47

February 14, 2011, 12:12 PM

I agree 100%. If the animal is 500 yards away you have more hunting to do.
+1

Then use a 30-06.

All in moderation

February 14, 2011, 12:25 PM

To answer your original question, yes it would kill an elk. The whole answer, it will kill said elk but from my experience, you have a very very high probability that the elk will not drop where it was standing. There is also a chance that you will not get a very good blood trail. I have been long range shooting (targets) for the past 5 years and I know that a 500 yard shot in an elks kill zone in the right conditions would be pretty easy. I have been elk hunting for 30+ years and will say that it would not be easy to put that elk down at that range with a 280. With that shot you have decided to put the work into tracking and packing, I suggest it would be easier on you to put the work into stalking and scent control. For any shot over 300 yards on an elk go with a 338 mag of some type and your odds of a one shot kill will go up, but I still say elk are not the game of choice for the long range hunting game.

taylorce1

February 14, 2011, 01:14 PM

Wayne Van Zwoll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2COAcHZRlI) makes a 600 yard shot on a bull elk with a 6.5 Creedmoore look pretty easy. He even gets an extit wound, sure he could have got closer but the fact is they are selling a product just like "Best of the West". I'm not saying that you have to take this kind of shot on elk ever but it never hurts to be prepared to make this shot.

A properly lung shot elk will not go much further than the one did in the video. There will be no three mile runs by a wounded elk if he is hit in the boiler room. More like 50-100 yards same as any other animal that can't breathe. There is no need to take out the shoulders, though I'm not against it if that is the best shot opportunity.

Jeff Cooper once wrote that if you had to take a shot at a game animal at more than 300 yards, you should be forced to sit down and write yourself a letter explaining why you had to do it. In TRIPLICATE! (no cabons). And I don't think he was wrong.

I respect the Colonel and what he did. However, he was happy with a 3MOA rifle, and at 300 yards that is a 9" group that will usually keep you in the kill zone of most big game animals. However I'm not happy with a 3 MOA hunting rifle, I will not hunt with a rifle until I'm able to get my rifle to shoot 1.5 MOA or less. That gives me at least a 1.5" smaller group at 500 yards than he was happy with at 300.

Agreed, well said. I get frustrated with the people who go on and on about shooting 500 yards isn't hunting. Come out here to AZ and hunt Coues deer with me, and tell me what I do isn't hunting. It takes skill to find a good area, glass up deer, stalk to within shooting range, spend days of trigger time pre-season and make a shot. Just because the furthest shot you can possibly take in the upstate new york forests is 150 yards doesn't mean that's the case all over the world. Just because you don't hunt that way doesn't mean it isn't hunting. Just because you can't shoot your rifle further than 300 yards doesn't mean that I can't.

Yes, most people who scream it is "unethical" to take an animal at 500 yards are people who never hunt where that shot becomes a possibility. Most of the time a 500 yard shot is unecessary but there is that rare occasion where that is all you get. Nor have they hunted where it takes you hours to move 300+ yards closer to get that 200 yard or less shot.

I sure don't condone shooting any animal at 500 yards unless you have the skill set to do so. It is a skill that just about anyone with a little time, big enough area, and some effort can learn. Especailly with todays quality of rifles and optics being produced and the other tools at ones disposal to ensure your shot goes where one intends.

To answer the OP's question, yes I think the .280 is enough rifle. I pretty much feel anything around the .30-06 power class is capable of bringing down elk at 500 yards very effectively. Just make sure you have the skill to make that shot.

All in moderation

February 14, 2011, 01:42 PM

Our hunting group dropped an elk that was double lung shot. We gave hand shakes and high fives only to see the elk get back up and proceed to make it 7 more miles before we recovered it dead. The shot was no more than 120 yards, and the bullet failed to expand. There was what looked like an arrow wound straight through the elk. Bad things can happen in the best of conditions, especially when elk hunting. I have only seen one elk drop where it was shot, and the majority of elk we have shot have made it farther than 100 yards. By the way that one drt elk was shot by a 30-06 so I am not saying you need a magnum to kill and elk, you just can't guarantee bad things won't happen. The last elk we got was shot twice buy a 7mm remington magnum, 175 grn bullet, once through the front of the chest the second broadside behind the shoulder. Both shots where about 75 yards. That elk made it just over 100 yards. There was nothing in the chest cavity but dark red goo, no heart, no lungs nothing.

Lloyd Smale

February 14, 2011, 03:24 PM

personaly i think what a guy hunts with and how he hunts (distance game shot ect) is a personal thing that nobody else has a right to critisize as long as what he does is legal. You can throw around all the talk on ethics you want. But bottom line is everyone has there opinion and its worth nothing. Ive heard guys bad mount bow hunters and then go out and shoot at deer at 400 yards with a 223. I have my own ethics when it comes to hunting. I have my opinions on what guns are proper for the job and KNOW my skill level. Would i shoot at a deer or elk at 500 yards off hand. Not a chance! Would i take a shot at an elk at 500 yards with a good rest using a gun i trusted. In a heartbeat. We do crop damage shooting for deer every year and probably kill a 100 deer a year. Many at 4-500 yards. What would i consider the proper gun for elk at that distance. Well it sure would start with the 7 mag at the bottom end. A 300 mag would be much better and one of the hotter 300 mags like the rum would better even better. If i had to pick a gun out of the safe knowing those shots were going to happen today it would be one of two. Either my 8mag rem or my 340 weatherby. Id probably go with the 8mag as i know it will shoot 200 grain partitions less then moa at ranges out to 500 yards and although it doesnt hit like the wby it puts ample smack on about anything.
Ill close with this. I can take the hunting habbits of about any of the holyier then hell guys who say it isnt ethical and probably shoot as well at 500 as they do at 200 and if i could watch the way they hunt for a couple years id about bet i could pick apart there ethics in one way or the other. The most important thing is knowing your ability and knowlege level and not to bad mouth you but if you have to ask what gun is capable of doing it your not capable of doing it.

Usertag

February 14, 2011, 03:31 PM

No a .280 Isnt good enough. But the best choice is a .300 Win Mag. It is honestly great for killing Deer, Elk, or Buffalo From at least 300 Yards Perfectly Accurate.

alabama

February 14, 2011, 04:12 PM

For elk at that range i think a .280 or 7mm mag would be a little small. I would go with a 300 mag. Learn how to hunt and get closer then it really want matter as much. And anyone who has the skill to make shots at that range is good enough to do it with a .308. I dont think the elk would know the difference if hit in the heart.

mathman

February 15, 2011, 03:09 AM

Win_94

February 15, 2011, 03:38 AM

and that means that we do our best to minimize suffering on the part of the animal.

But coyotes suffering is cool.

Shooting at varmints at long range is one thing but never at game animals.

Hypocritical.

If you really were interested in minimal suffering, you would be taking head shots.

idek

February 15, 2011, 03:52 AM

personaly i think what a guy hunts with and how he hunts (distance game shot ect) is a personal thing that nobody else has a right to critisize as long as what he does is legal
I respectfully disagree. Hunting in an ethical fashion is something that all ethical hunters should try to encourage other people to follow. Most hunters have a deep respect for the animals that they kill and eat...and I think the animals deserve that respect...and that means that we do our best to minimize suffering on the part of the animal. So, for most folks, taking a 500 yard shot is going to not kill the animal as fast as a closer shot. Just my two cents.
I feel the same way. The hunting world (or any world for that matter) would be in a very sad state if we always just went with, "If it's legal, it's okay." If more people used good common sense and demonstrated good values, we wouldn't need much in the way of laws to begin with. It is because of people who lack personal values and common sense that laws are imposed on everyone else.

That's not to say that no one should take 500 yard shots at game, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be critical of some people who do. If too many unqualified people try to do certain things and fail, that's when laws are made to compensate for the lack of personal decision making. That's why .223s aren't legal for deer hunting in my state (which does allow rifle hunting). Some hunters were skilled and selective enough to be effective with the cartridge, but too many others weren't, and the end result is that it was banned for everyone.

...As to the original post, I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting that distance, but if I had to, I'd use a .300 win. magnum as a minimum to cause adequate damage. Something like a .340 Weatherby might be ideal, but I don't think I'd much enjoy shooting such a rifle.

Lloyd Smale

February 15, 2011, 06:55 AM

I guess if a guy was truely conserned about animals suffering he wouldnt shoot them to start with. I doubt if theres a soul here who can claim that every animal he has ever shot died on the spot. Im surely not so cold as to not want to put down an animal humanely but who are you or anyone else to put limits on me. If i can shoot well enough to make vital hits on deer at 500 yards and your only capable of doing it at 300 should you be preaching to me or should i be preaching at you to get out to the range more. Its arguments like this that fuel the anti hunters. Same type of guy will tell me that a 500 linebaugh is an overkill for hunting and any man who uses one is on an ego trip. If they cant handle shooting one then unless they bash the guy who can it makes them look bad. Everyone has differnt skill levels, recoil tolarnances ect and to claim you have the answers and should make the rules is about rediculous. Hell i know guys id rather see shoot a deer at 200 yards off hand with a handgun then see some poke away with a rilfle at that range off of a rest. Bottom line is there guns scopes and loads that easily will take elk at 500 yards in the hands of a RIFLEMAN and theres guys who think they can buy there way to doing it.

mathman

February 15, 2011, 03:50 PM

jhgreasemonkey

February 15, 2011, 04:26 PM

I woudn't take that long of a shot while hunting. There's too many if's and how's at play. There's a good chance of wounding the animal, and if you do kill it cleany can you get to it and get it out? At that distance what kind of terrain is between you and the animal? How can you be sure? For example, I remember one time in particular I had been hunting all week in a 3 point or better mule deer area and after hiking for half a day up a mountain I finaly spotted a shooter. A nice big 3x3 up on a cliff 200 yards away. He didn't know I was there and I put him in the crosshairs using a nice steady rest while taking my time. But luckily a light bulb came on and I lowered the rifle and accessed the situation. I realized I might not have a way to get to him after I shot him. He was up top a cliff and I could see no realistic way for me to get up there or back down. It was pretty rugged looking and deer and elk can get to places we sometimes can't. After waiting a while the deer wandered out of sight and I moved around the peak he was on and still couldn't tell how the heck he got up there, let alone how I would without falling to my death. I almost shot him but luckily this time common sense came to me at the last minute. I went home empty handed that year after a lot of hard hunting but I'm glad today that I didn't pull the trigger. Just focus on getting closer to the animal so you can make a well informed decision of the big picture before shooting.

Bamashooter

February 15, 2011, 04:48 PM

Hunters owe it to their prey to be competent. If you have to make a 500yrd. shot you should know you can or cant do it. You should have the right caliber for the job. All of this should be known before you even leave the house to go hunting. Is a .280 enough? Well someone with skill could make that shot with that caliber. Only that person hunting knows whether or not he is capable. I think if there is any doubt you should pass. As for shooting at that range. Sometimes you cant get closer. Anybody who hunts knows that. If you have the ability to make the shot I dont see a problem with it.

taylorce1

February 15, 2011, 05:00 PM

I respectfully disagree. Hunting in an ethical fashion is something that all ethical hunters should try to encourage other people to follow. Most hunters have a deep respect for the animals that they kill and eat...and I think the animals deserve that respect...and that means that we do our best to minimize suffering on the part of the animal. So, for most folks, taking a 500 yard shot is going to not kill the animal as fast as a closer shot. Just my two cents.

Since we are talking ethics here ponder this. Is it more ethical for?

The hunter who has practiced and has the skills to shoot 500 yards, I mean he can dope the wind accurately, meticulously tailors his hand loads so his rifle holds sub MOA groups at any range he shoots at. So he and his trusty .280 Remington manages to take an elk at the 500 yards cleanly and recovers it.

Or

The guy who bought a .30-06 packaged rifle with bore sighted scope and a box of factory ammo to go hunting with it never firing a shot through it before the hunt. After all the guy who sold him his elk rifle said it was already sighted in at the factory. He takes his elk at 100 yards with one shot and recovers it as well.

Both situations exists every year hunting elk and other game and both situations are completly legal. Now you tell me which one is the more "Ethical" hunter. I sure would take competence over ignorance every day as the ethical choice and not put a “range” limit on hunting.

A nice big 3x3 up on a cliff 200 yards away. He didn't know I was there and I put him in the crosshairs using a nice steady rest while taking my time. But luckily a light bulb came on and I lowered the rifle and accessed the situation. I realized I might not have a way to get to him after I shot him. He was up top a cliff and I could see no realistic way for me to get up there or back down.

A better reason for not taking that shot should have been. I don't know what is behind that deer! I can't see anything but sky behind him, what happens if I miss or the bullet exits the deer? I'd better not take that shot since I have not real idea where my bullet is going to go.

Don't worry I've been called out on this one before as well.

All in moderation

February 15, 2011, 05:10 PM

Take a look at the op question, then look at how many replies are actually answering the question. I always love how these long range shooting post take-off on the ethical debate. I would consider myself as a long range hunter. I have the equipment and the practice to know when I can make a 500 yard shot. As I said though, I would not consider shooting at an elk at that range. Elk hunting experience has taught me that drt is very hard to accomplish. My first question would be, can I get closer. Even though I can make a 1000 yard cold bore first round hit inside a deer size kill zone in the right conditions, I would always try my hardest to get inside 100 yards on an elk. The problem with long range shooting is once you acquire the skills to make the shot, are you going to stop trying to get closer. For me the long shot is the last shot I would take. I am very confident that 99.9% of the time I will be inside 308 winchester range before I take a shot at an elk, and the other 1/10th of a precent I am willing to let the elk walk. Now moose, deer and antelope are another story, I would shoot one of those at long range, I could see stretching out to 200-300 on one of those just because they are much easier to kill. We ask long range hunters why they take those long shots and they answer because they have the skill and equipment to make that shot. Well if a long range hunter was to ask me, if you can make a 1000 yard cold bore first round shot why I set a 300 yard limit on myself, I would answer, because I have the equipment and skill to get much closer.
Again to the op, if you think you will try a 500 yard shot on an elk, go to a 338 mag of some sort. You asked if a 280 would make a QUICK kill on an elk at 500 yards, well it is possible if you get lucky, but my money is on a long day of tracking and packing.

jhgreasemonkey

February 15, 2011, 05:23 PM

A better reason for not taking that shot should have been. I don't know what is behind that deer! I can't see anything but sky behind him, what happens if I miss or the bullet exits the deer? I'd better not take that shot since I have not real idea where my bullet is going to go.

True. I won't argue with that. Actually I appreciate you pointing that out. That's an absolute must to consider and that should have been my first thought, not how to get to the animal after I shot it. :)

Bamashooter

February 15, 2011, 05:49 PM

I dont believe that once you aquire the skill to kill at long range you stop trying to get closer. Its not true in my case anyway, I cant speak for others, but I would like to believe that everyone does their best to get the best chance possible to kill the animal. Whether or not it dies right there doesnt matter to me as long as I know I made a good shot and the critter will be recovered. A .280 loaded with 150gr. bullet at 2900fps has 2800ft.lbs of energy. I dont know how much is has at 500yrds. but in the right hands that seems adequate with the right type bullet to kill an elk.

All in moderation

February 15, 2011, 06:53 PM

A 280 shooting a 162gn hornady sst with at bc of .550 advertised and moving at 2750fps advertised will still be moving at 2062fps and retains 1530ft/lbs of energy at 500 yards. The numbers say that bullet will cleanly kill an elk at said 500yards. Now in reality, we shot an elk at about 100 yards with a 175gn bullet moving at 2577fps and retaining 2580ft/lbs of energy. That elk was dead on it's feet, it actually went down. We ended up tracking that elk for 7 miles. Numbers don't kill elk. That elk was double lung shot but everything went wrong, which made for a long day. Granted that was probably a fluke situation but when you start shooting at longer ranges the odds of those flukes increase. Lately we have a rule in our hunting group that if the elk is moving at all we are still shooting. Not one elk in the last 5 hunts have been killed with one shot. Did everyone of them need a second or third shot? All I can say is I'm glad we never had to find out, and we have never lost one.

gaseousclay

February 15, 2011, 06:54 PM

jhgreasemonkey

February 15, 2011, 07:35 PM

I think the point behind this particular ethics debate is this: just because you can doesn't mean you should. I think it's very telling that some of the more experienced hunters out there wouldn't take a 500 yd shot on any game animal.
Nicely put. I think one of the reasons I am weary against taking a shot like this is that even well respected hunters are tempted to take stupid shots and sometimes do. So using caution is something you have to remind yourself of before you get too cocky and goof up. For example a guy we have hunted with for years took over a 400 yard shot at a mule deer off of his horse. Except for that he has had a stellar record at being a responsible hunter. He had a momentary lapse of reason because he had become over confident over the years. I'm just saying try using your head, god knows I need to come down a notch from time to time.

Lloyd Smale

February 16, 2011, 06:20 AM

i dont run around telling all the hunters i meet that they should be blazing away at deer across a 40. My point in this is that some rifleman are more then capable of making reliable long range shots. If you arent or dont want to so be it but just as its not my bussiness to encourage it its not my bussiness to claim its not ethical. Like was hinted toward in many of the other posts about half the hunters i know would have to stay home if they had to pass a test of there shooting skills before deer season each year. Many miss and wound deer at a 100 yards. Putting some accross the board range limit on what ethical and whats not is about rediculous. To many factors come into play. Would you tell an army sniper who routinely has made kills out to a 1000 yards with a 308 that taking a shot at a deer at 500 yards with a 300 mag was unethical for him. Id bet youd get a good laugh for your thoughts. Bottom line is that in my opinion nobody has a right to tell anyone else what ethical. Thats what the law is for and anything posted about it being unethical is just fuel for the antis.

gaseousclay

February 16, 2011, 08:16 AM

Would you tell an army sniper who routinely has made kills out to a 1000 yards with a 308 that taking a shot at a deer at 500 yards with a 300 mag was unethical for him. Id bet youd get a good laugh for your thoughts.

no offense but that's a poor analogy. you're comparing a sniper, who in a time of war is trained to kill. I don't think ethics really comes into play here. we're talking about game animals and the ability or inability of hunters to exercise common sense when shooting long ranges. and how is talking about hunting ethics fuel for the antis?

Tom Matiska

February 16, 2011, 09:35 AM

Would you tell an army sniper who routinely has made kills out to a 1000 yards with a 308 that taking a shot at a deer at 500 yards with a 300 mag was unethical for him. Id bet youd get a good laugh for your thoughts.

Agree.... I'm entertaining some of the same thoughts as the OP, and the old woodchuck hunter in me doesn't see the big deal here. Graduating from little critters at 300-400 yards to big game at 400-500 with a proper magnum is not as outrageous as some think.

I need to crank out a few hundred reloads for my chuck outfit and get back in proper form this summer. When(and only when) my 300-400 skills are back up there, the long barrel 300 Win Mag is off my wish list.

All in moderation

February 16, 2011, 12:58 PM

I really do not like arguing ethics about hunting, it is so subjective. I could go off and say in my opinion bow hunting is unethical. What hunting ethics is to me, is doing everything in my control to cleanly harvest any animal as quickly and painlessly as possible. To shoot an animal with a bow, only have it run off and bleed out, could be called unethical to some. I will not tell you how to hunt. I will try to warn you that you are heading in a direction that has a high chance of turning out badly. Would I go and stand in front of a military sniper shooting a 300wm at 500 yards because I can guarantee he can not make a killing shot at said distance? Not a chance!!! Would I bet money that elk won't go miles and never be seen again? From my experience, not a chance on that either. It is not an issue of making the shot, it isn't even an issue of making a kill shot. It has to do with elk being very hard to kill quickly. When you go to a 500 yard shot and the elk takes off (which there is a good chance that will happen) it is very hard to make a follow up shot. A moving target a 500 yards is a very low precentage shot. Then after all the shooting is done you have to walk said 500 yards and find the exact location the elk was standing to find out if you actually made a hit, and then try to pick up the blood trail that might not even start for many yards. Trust me that is very difficult to do even with a spotter. So what is wrong, in my opinion with taking a long shot is the farther out you go the more you need a drt shot, to me that is contradictory.

Some bad seeds in any organization can ruin it for everyone. Am I saying long range hunters or bow hunters are bad seeds, not at all. I belong to the long range hunting forum also and there are some very talented, ethical, helpful people over there. I have become a better shot, have better equipment and am more confident in my shooting ability because of them. The senior guys over there are the first to tell you it takes more than equipment, you need to practice consistently, all year. All I want to point out is killing elk is hard enough so if you can get closer to increase the odds of a drt shot please try. If you can not resist taking a long shot for any reason please practice a lot with your hunting rifle and know your limitations with it, and stepping up to over kill would be a great idea. In my experience shooting an elk at 500 yards with a 280 is not. Look at it on the bright side though, take my post to your wife and tell her you NEED a new rifle:).

603Country

February 16, 2011, 01:45 PM

I might as well have my say regarding 500 yard elk shots. I've been shooting centerfire rifles for 50 years and rimfire rifles for longer than that. I shot expert in the Marine Corps (Battalion high shooter), and I've shot hundreds of deer (no elk). I believe that, with my tuned rifle (270 Win) and handloads, I'm good to about 350 yards on Whitetails. By that I mean that I will know the distance and know that I can place the bullet with extreme accuracy every time - to minimize tracking and to hopefully totally eliminate dragging a dead animal for any distance. An elk is going to be harder to kill than a whitetail deer. With all that considered, and to avoid tracking and dragging, a fellow like me would need plenty of gun and be extremely experienced with that gun to even consider a 500 yard shot on a tough animal like an elk. Bottom line...if shooting conditions are ideal and you know absolutely that you are good enough for the shot, and you've practiced at that range, and you have the right gun, go ahead. Otherwise, don't do it. I probably would not attempt the shot.

Lloyd Smale

February 17, 2011, 06:46 AM

well said 603country. The point i was trying to make here is that most hunters have no bussiness trying it but with the right gear and the right shooter its more then possible to make vital hits a 100 percent of the time on game as large as elk at 500 yards. You do need a gun that capable and powerful enough and some skill though. Most guys that hunt dont want to put in the time or spend the money to get there though. Most hunters i know buy a box of factory shells and it lasts them 3 hunting seasons. But just because your not capable of doing it doesnt give you the high and mighty right to judge someone who can. Ethics are a personal thing and should be kept that way.

All in moderation

February 17, 2011, 12:00 PM

I wasn't to bothered by the op question. Reading into what he said, I took it that he was an experienced hunter (bow hunt 20-30 yards). He knows how to get close. He already has an excellent rifle and caliber, so this tells me he has some firearm experience. I don't know why he wants this info, maybe he is just trying to figure out the maximum capabilities of his firearm to set a limit for himself. He asked the right question, is it enough to QUICKLY kill an elk? So to me it seems he has the ethics. What bothers me is comments of others answering these type of questions. I primarily hunt elk, it is my passion. I also shoot every week out to and beyond 1000 yards. Putting these experiences together I respect the fact that there is actually no need for a 500 yard shot, and there is definitely no chance at being able to make a 100% guarantee for anybody making a 500 yard shot in field condition on game. There is actually no guarantee for any shot.

The reason that these type of answers bother me is there are inexperienced hunters and shooters reading what we are saying. There are just way to many variables and skills needed to make a shot like that, to make it seem so easy. Yes there are guys I know that have the equipment, skill, and practice to take those shots. I would be glad to have these gentlemen in my hunting camp, because I know they would be the first people to pass on a shot like that when the conditions where not just right. These guys are not your average hunter/shooter. They already have thousands and thousands of rounds of experience and are competition class shooters. I suggest, to everyone not to even contemplate a shot like that till you have the experience to know when not to take the shot.

Lloyd, I don't mean any offense to you directly. There were other comments made that I could have used in this post for an example. I do not think you were trying to diminish the skill level needed to make a 500 yard shot. It is just that 100% absolute was the last thing that stuck in my mind. I am not against any type of hunting style at all. I'm not trying to stop people from taking the long shot. I just want to try and get the inexperienced to realize what it takes to make a shot like that.

Lloyd Smale

February 17, 2011, 02:06 PM

no offense taken and you made some good points. It just pisses me off when some wet behind the ear internet expert trys to push his idea of ethics on someone else. You have to keep in mind that half the guys posting here spend alot more time on a keyboard then they do with a rifle. Some just like to see there works in print.

paul84043

February 17, 2011, 04:26 PM

The first elk I ever dropped with a rifle was from 460 yards across a small ravine. (scoped it the next year). I used a handhold on a small pine tree for stabilization, otherwise I would have gone prone.
Use your head, the little liney things in your scope and all that math junk that you thought you'd never use, some common sense and some patience.
Held over her back 1foot, (standing still) nailed her square in the killzone.
Ruger M77 7mm-08, zeroed at 200 yards. (I zero at 250 now) excellent elk rifle and reasonably accurate out to 1000 yards with the right bullet.
3/4 MOA (3/4" circle/5 shots) at 100yds. 1 MOA (3" group) at 300yds 1.5 MOA (7.5" group) at 500yds (though most of the variation I'm sure is me...)
When I hit the elk, I was using a 165 gr. Winchester white box soft points.
She ran about 70 yards, stopped, laid down and we let her bleed out for about 20 minutes before approaching. I did rack another in and follow her, if she would have kept going, I would have hit her again.
I found most of the bullet just under the skin on the far side of her chest (after breaking the far rib) when we cleaned her out.
As far as I'm concerned, that was a perfect hit, the bullet expended all of its energy inside the animal with maximum penetration and no overkill.
My father in law hunts elk with a .280 and has dropped many with it. It's a very capable round. The variable is you.
You need to know your weapon better than anyone. If you can put the right bullet where you want it, you can drop an elk with any decent hunting rifle.
I use a 25-06 for deer and Coyotes, and the 7mm-08 for larger game.
We never hunt for trophies, though I don't judge, we clean our own animals, butcher them ourselves and eat what we kill. Elk bottles great!!

gaseousclay

February 17, 2011, 06:29 PM

It just pisses me off when some wet behind the ear internet expert trys to push his idea of ethics on someone else. You have to keep in mind that half the guys posting here spend alot more time on a keyboard then they do with a rifle. Some just like to see there works in print.

I think you're letting your ego get a hold of you. nobody here is claiming they are experts but a lot of people are saying that even experts exercise extreme caution and more than likely wouldn't attempt a 500 yd shot at an elk. that's it.

All in moderation

February 17, 2011, 10:09 PM

I don't think Lloyd is being egotistical, I just think he is passionate on this subject.

blutob

February 17, 2011, 11:10 PM

I must be a really bad shot, or blind, because I would never even consider trying a 500 yd shot at anything! I'm sure that a very highly trained, expert marksman, who practices regularly, could make the shot under ideal conditions, but less than 1% of the hunting population fits those qualifications.

Bamashooter

February 17, 2011, 11:36 PM

Anyone have the 5th edition sierra reloading manaual? Look in the .280 section ( page 451). This lady made a 350yrd. shot on a 6x6 with a 160gr. bullet loaded with 56gr. of H4831. That would put the velocity at just over 2700fps and energy around 2600ft.lbs. With a 150gr. bullet and IMR-4350 it will give you 2900fps and 2800ft.lbs. of energy. A shooter with skill could make a 500yrd. shot with that bullet. I think I could make that shot, but would I try? Best I can tell its not really anyones business. Every hunter has that decision to make.

All in moderation

February 18, 2011, 01:36 AM

Sure the velocity and energy are there but there is so much more needed to make that shot. If I was to go into complete detail this would be a long answer, but I will cover some of the important points just to get an idea. First you need a very specific bullet designed for that shot, something with a high ballistic coefficient. That usually is the heavier bullets for any caliber. Then you need a very accurate rifle, something capable of delivering moa all the way out to 500 yards. That would be all shots into 5" at 500 yards. Now you need to get a good secure rest, prone with a bipod would be a good idea. Now break out your range finder because if you are off your range estimation 50 yards you will miss by 13" vertical. Find some way to accurately compensate for 42" of drop and make sure you don't forget shot angle can cause vertical error. Next brake out you kestral weather meter because with just 10 mph wind you will need almost 13" of compensation. Now add that to your moa error and we can be out 18" of horizontal. Wind is very hard to predict because you can't see it and it is always moving and changing. Compensate for wind while still compensating for vertical. Get ready to shoot, Oh wait the elk just moved, now move your whole shooting position to regain your natural point of aim. Get ready to shoot again, Oh wait the wind changed, correct hold for changes, get ready to shoot. Everything is holding, you are in your natural point of aim, relaxed and the shot feels good. Squeeze the trigger wait for recoil, and follow through. Recoil causes you to loose sight picture so you have no idea if you made a hit, luckily we had a spotter with us. He calls the shot. 3" low and 7" back. We just made a liver shot because the elk just wouldn't stand totally broadside for us. The elk took off full run. Get back on target holding natural point of aim, compensate for your new wind and distance that we now don't have time to calculate, then calculate for your first shots miss, and compensate for the speed and direction the elk is moving all at 500 yards. Make follow up shot. Total miss. Elk disappears in cover. We decide that we made a kill shot but we have to wait for the elk to go down and die, so now we have time to analyze what happened. To make this simple let me tell you straight out. We missed our wind call by 2 mph, and where on the out side of our 5" group. This was actually a pretty good shot, but at 500 yards every little error compounds our mistakes 5 times.

Luckily we had a spotter and the ethics to spend half a day picking up the trail and tracking the elk. We recover our trophy and once we get back home we jump on the forums we belong to and say we just made a one shot kill on an elk at 500 yards. Everyone tells us congratulations your the man. We feel proud and say thanks, all the time knowing how close we came to actually loosing our elk.

I really did not cover everything it takes to make this shot but I think you may get the idea. Now consider we were on the the second day of the hunt we still had 3 days left to find a better situation, or better yet we stalked 300 yards and got to within 200 yards of the first elk for that shot. I ask why do you feel a need to take that risk?

Lloyd Smale

February 18, 2011, 07:14 AM

yup it must be my ego:p Couldnt be the 40 years ive spent shooting almost ever day and the many many thousands of rounds i put downrange every year. Plain and simple if you cant walk the walk dont! But to the key board comandos that talk the talk maybe you just need a bit more trigger time and bit less keyboard time. ANYONE that knows me knows i post on a couple other fourms other then this and theres not one once of bs in any post i make. Shooting is my life. I dont fool around anymore with motorcyles, boats or snow machines. All my time and money goes into guns and shooting. Like ive posted before ive shot not just one but many deer at those ranges and havent wounded one yet. Elk arent some majic animal that bullets bounce off of or that have some kind of a force field around them. Like i also said snipers routinely make head shots at that range with 308s on targets alot smaller. Problem is very few are willing to put in the time or money to be able to do it. If your not one of them it doesnt give you any right to tell someone who does that what he does isnt ethical because you cant. This will be my last post on the subject. Im not going to waste any more time trying to beat the truth into minds that arent open.

All in moderation

February 18, 2011, 10:25 AM

Lloyd, again I wasn't targeting you in any way. If you check back a couple posts I was the one who defended you. I love that you are passionate about this subject. Because of your willingness to continue this post a lot of good information has come out for both sides of the argument. I am not a keyboard commando. Like I said, I also shoot every week. I am the first person to admit I am not the best shot out there, but I do own a rifle that I am capable of shooting moa out to 500 yards in some conditions. I say again I would rather have an experienced long range shooter in my camp than a wet behind the ear newbie who has no idea of his limitations. Would I want you specifically in my camp, sure! you sound like a person who loves hunting and shooting with a moral fiber of knowing what you are capable of. I think we would have many good talks around the camp fire and be able to bring game home ethically, even with our personal views on this subject.

Now as far as elk not being magical creatures that bullets bounce off of. Well, I must say that though I don't expect the bullets to bounce off, I do expect the elk to absorb two or three before they go down. That may just be my experience but it happens more times than not. If the elk does not go down, I also expect it to make it a greater distance than a deer, and it usually goes for the thickest cover it can find making tracking very difficult. Again I am not saying you can not kill an elk at 500 yards. I saw one video lately of a group making a 900+yard one shot kill on an elk with a 6.5-284. That elk however did not go down right away and the area they were shooting was kind of open. I admit I could learn a lot form guys like that. I just want the wet behind the ears hunters not to think that so many people are actually taking those shots, what it takes to make that shot, and even though some people have the skills for the shot they wait for better conditions.

Art Eatman

February 18, 2011, 11:27 AM

Some people have the skill for those Ma Bell shots; most of us don't. I'm halfway fair to middling, but I've passed more than one shot because I didn't feel confident. My joke is that it's a Zen thing.

My father? He had the skill. Not just the skill, but the confidence to kill a deer at long range in front of witnesses. He didn't tell the stories, they did--or I'd never have known.

One vignette: Three guys, walking-hunting across the White's Mines ranch, west of Uvalde. Norther blowing. They see a way-over-yonder good buck, accompanied by a smaller buck and a few does. One guy sits down, takes a look through his scope and passes the shot because of too much wind. My father said, "Hell, I'll break his neck, from here." The two guys with him figured about 500 yards. The first shot missed, but gave him the windage correction. The next shot broke the deer's neck. Not bad for an offhand hold...

The longest offhand shot I ever saw him make was about 250 yards. He called the white spot and hit the white spot. He was around 65 or so years old at the time. That old Springfield wobbled around and wobbled around such that I was wondering if he'd ever shoot, and if he'd be able to hit. I'm just glad I didn't say anything. :D Sometimes, silence is indeed golden.

Some folks can, some folks can't.

603Country

February 18, 2011, 04:53 PM

Back a ways in this string of notes, I said that I probably wouldn't attempt the 500 yard shot. I'm pretty sure I can make the shot, if the wind is mild and I have time and a good rest, and if I know what the range is. A good part of the reason that I probably wouldn't take the shot is that I have a rule that says I "don't shoot anything that's too big to drag". Heck, an elk is way too big to drag, and last thing I want to do is track a wounded elk half a mile and then have to get it back to where I could load it up. If I had the opportunity to shoot an elk, I'm going to have probably too much, rather than too little, rifle, and I want that rascal dead on the ground immediately. I just don't think I could be positive that I could deliver the knockout at 500 yards. But, I probably could, and if I had a herd of good big dumb friends or big strong nephews and sons standing around waiting to do all the tracking, dragging and grunt work, I'd be more inclined to try the shot. Back when I was younger, I shot deer at long ranges (700 was the longest), but when I got through dragging that buck across 700 yards of deep Louisiana mud (which just may be the worst gluelike mud on earth), I started rethinking long shots. So sure...I can make the shot. But I'm not going to do it. Call me lazy or call me smart. Your choice.

hooligan1

February 18, 2011, 05:16 PM

Okay gentlemen, here's the deal, if you take a 500yd shot at an elk, and make a bad hit on the animal, there's gonna be some tracking,(hopefully the rascal runs toward you, but he probably won't) that's also hunting! I couldn't blame anyone for trying it, because I saw a time when I definetly would of. But after tracking whitetails as long as I have, I'm not so ambitious anymore to wear my trackin boots all night.:rolleyes:Some of the members here always post how ETHICS should be percieved,,,,Not even knowing in person, the one who makes a 500 yd shot on an elk or a freaking raccoon for that matter. Like I said from some of the targets that have been posted on this forum,(they shoot pretty damn good for computer geeks)I know good and well that with their rifle, they are capable of shooting this far EASILY. Just think of how many animals have fallen to this old caliber. Elmer Kieth shot hundreds of animals with his.;)If it was good enough for him... Nobody should criticize anyone, that practices this range and tries to take a bull at this range. THIS IS THE FIRING LINE...not the critics of hunting ethics club. Now someone could start an ETHICS thread, But the OP didn't necessarily ask for that in this thread. REREAD THE OP'S Question then do your college best to answer it.:rolleyes:

taylorce1

February 18, 2011, 05:39 PM

Back a ways in this string of notes, I said that I probably wouldn't attempt the 500 yard shot. I'm pretty sure I can make the shot, if the wind is mild and I have time and a good rest, and if I know what the range is. A good part of the reason that I probably wouldn't take the shot is that I have a rule that says I "don't shoot anything that's too big to drag". Heck, an elk is way too big to drag, and last thing I want to do is track a wounded elk half a mile and then have to get it back to where I could load it up.

Well then I wouldn't hunt elk if I were you. My experience has been I've only shot two elk where I didn't have to quarter them and haul them out. I was lucky enough to drop a cow on a trail on a ranching for wildlife and could load her with my come-a-longs, the other was hunting another RFW property and the ranch hands saw me drop it and drug it to my pickup with their quad.

Most of the time I've either had to pack the elk out on my back or on a horse. Less things go wrong if you carry it yourself. So if you want to shoot one where you hope they are going to be because of easy access to haul out, you are going to have a long wait. If you want to kill elk you have to go where the elk are and it is rarely where you want them to be for convience IME.

I don't mind the work getting an animal out of the mountains. You have to pay a price for the experience, and hard work is easier than money for me these days to part with. I'll do the work before and after the elk is down, and it makes for one hell of a memorable hunt. Of course this is just my opinion so TIFWIW.

paul84043

February 18, 2011, 06:27 PM

Personally I think it has alot to do with where you hunt.
I'm in Utah and alot of the areas we hunt are very large, very open and very flat. Getting up to 300yds may be nearly impossible, sometimes, if you want to fill your tag, you've got to take a longer shot. But you need to put in the time, practice, and commitment it takes to feel comfortable with it as well.
I severly dislike people that take what I would consider to be an inhumane shot. Know your equipment and how to use it. It also helps to have a spotter, an extra set of eyes and ears to watch the animal, and also to listen for the slap when you make a hit. Lots of times it's very difficult to do that alone...

fletchbutt152

February 18, 2011, 10:31 PM

Take a look at a Lazzeroni in Warbird. 500 yards on elk? Piece of elk steak!

603Country

February 18, 2011, 11:34 PM

Yep Taylorce1,

That's why I don't hunt elk. It isn't the money. I just don't have the urge. As I get older I find that I enjoy the hunt more than the shot and I find that I don't shoot game as much as I once did. When I was younger, I'd have taken that long shot and tracked that elk forever, if necessary. Now more of my hunting is on Coyotes and the hogs that are digging up the back part of my ranch. So when I said ya'll could call me lazy or call me smart, I guess the truth is more toward my being too lazy to work that hard anymore. It's easy to drag a coyote, and I get a lot of fun out of the hunt. And if I shot an elk, my wife would be on my case about just where in the world did she expect me to put all that frozen meat, and I don't want that discussion either.

reloader28

February 18, 2011, 11:40 PM

I swore I wouldnt get into these long range arguements again, but sorry. Not a rant though.

If you catch a calm elk, yes, 90% of the time you can drop them pretty easy (in my experiences). If you jump them (like alot of guys do) or they get a hint of something wrong and get their adrenalin moving, then most times you have problems. Then their harder to put down like anything.

I think you guys are over thinking the skill it takes to shoot at 500yds. Yes, you should practice. But, did you ever wonder why women and kids usually make excellent shots on game? Its cause they dont think about where to hold, how much wind is blowing. They just do it and the animal drops. My wife and daughters have all made 1 shot kills at 300yds and beyond with 243's.

I've made several 500yd shots, my first deer when I was 14. I didnt shoot that much and didnt try to do the scientific thing on it, I just held it on her back like Dad said, and down she went (with a straight 6x scope). I've put 2 holes 6" apart in the lungs of a running bull elk and a hole thru the heart of a running whitetail doe. Both at loooonnng range and both died within seconds. I didnt think about it, I didnt have time. I just shot and down they went.

I am not an excellent shot, just average I think, but something works. With todays modern guns and scopes, it really aint that hard to do and sometimes necessary.

You dont need a tack driver. A 1 1/2" group at 100yds, that is still doable on a deer at 500yds. Elk are a bigger target yet.

I've also seen more animals run farther wounded at 150-250yd shots than the farther out ones. Personally, I think its cause the bullet is going to fast at those ranges to perform to its potential. It slows down and does what its supposed to do farther out.

I have noticed that most guys (not all) that argue against long range killing live in areas that it is never needed. Sometimes, theres no getting around it to fill your tag out here. Dont over think it or you are likely to dowt yourself and miss anyway. I think thats usually what happens. Just make the shot.

I dont want you to think I do long range stuff all the time. I love putting the sneak on stuff in the timber and shooting at a few yards in its bed, it just dont always happen that way.

If this sounds like a rant, its not. I'm just giving my opinion from friends, family and my experiences.

blutob

February 19, 2011, 07:32 PM

603 Country,
I understand your sentiments completely. When I was younger (I'm 54 now), I would usually hunt the part of my property that was way back (4500 ft from the road), and take any shot I could get on deer (there are no elk in NY). The results included many long tracking sessions and exhausting drags of deer back to the road through mud, swamps, etc., many times in the dark. Sometimes on longer shots there were so many tracks I couldn't even figure out which ones belonged to the deer I shot.

The last 3 years I have set up some stands about 300 yards from the road and have spent more time hunting that area, with great success. It is a thicker area so the shots are closer (within 100 yds), and it takes about 15 minutes to get the animal to the vehicle. What was I thinking before! I guess I've become lazy or smart also.

RwBeV

February 20, 2011, 05:05 PM

The original question- Yes a 280 can take an elk cleanly at 500 yards. Are you capable of making a shot like that? I don't know. I live in the west and I hunt in the west, if you come out here and tell someone how they should hunt your probably going to have a black eye. Same as telling folks out here how they should live its just not going to happen. I have over 30 elk to my credit some over 500 yds. Most where packed out on my back now at the age of 50 and 2 back surgeries later I still pack them out on my back. I shoot a custom Ruger M77 in 6.5-06 it has killed most of my elk and none have ever been lost. Would I tell someone he had to hunt the sameway I do...Hell no, how you hunt and what you shoot is your business.

The worst hunting mistake I ever seen was with an 8mm Rem Mag, the first year they came out, A hunting companion of mine shot a spike elk 12 times yes 12 times, Starting at about 200 yds. the mistake was in bullet selection. I don't remember what he was using but they just blew up before they penetrated. I figure he was using bullets designed for the 8x57 and was driving them fast out of that big old magnum. Noting to do with ethics just a mistake thats all.

Don't tell me how to hunt and I wont tell you to kiss my #%& . If we out here in the west have to live like folks from other states tell us we should there probably wont be any hunting out here and we wont have to worry about 500 yd shots on anything and I do mean anything.

Instead of telling each other how we should hunt we should be trying to give this fellow an honest answer to his questing. Yes a 280 will kill an elk cleanly at 500yds if you can do your part.

Bob